Originally posted by RankRancid
but I heard you rep. So maybe not a complete waste.

Also confirmed it was just repeating the same stuff, which is what I thought. So he gets a star from me

Absolute Irrefutable Evidence of a Creator is on YouTube? that's funny

It wore thin on me after the first two, couldnt bring myself to watch anymore, the music alone was most off putting.

fwiw, the only part that made any sense was Dawkins at the start of the first one.

Can you people not understand that there must be a destroyer? We see out in the universe; stars, planets, galaxies even, that simply explode into NOTHING. Theres nothing left at all.

Now something doesnt just become nothing for no reason? There must be a destroyer behind it. An intelligent destroyer.

Ever witnessed the miracle of death? How could something so alive, just fade away into nothing? Its clear evidence of a destroyer.



OK realtime here:
WHY do you all obsess with there being SOMETHING that made everything? Its like saying something doesnt just go to peaces for no reason? There must have been an intelligent destroyer. Why does everything need a reason?

It never changes.. you always find the stuff we know little or nothing about, and insist god is behind it. The last thing was debunked as being totaly natural and normal, and of course explainable, so you you find something else.

Just like lightning HAD to be angry gods throwing at us, the universe just HAS to be made by god.



You're obsessed, and so much that you're effectively blind.. or rather, all you see is god, god, god. You are dilusioned.

"The pyramids are so nice, we dont know how they were made.. it MUST have been god!"
-Come on!?

The universe doesnt NEED a designer, and it doesnt need a destroyer. It is silly to think it does.

Copernicus
It doesnt make any sense to us, but maybe thats a
limitation in our design and not the universe itself.

Perhaps the error is not in our answers, but rather in the questions we choose to ask. When we see a beautiful flower dripping lightly with dew in the warm, cheery sunlight of morning...yes, we can ask how it came into being. "Who created this flower?" "Who created the seed it came from?" "Who created seeds?" "Who created the matter that seeds are composed of?" God? Then who created God?

We can spin in circles forever asking these questions if we choose.

Or, we can ask different questions: "What is this flower that I see?" "What is its beauty?" "What is this sensation of warmth I feel on my skin?"

If we ask the question "what is?" and we direct our focus on the understanding of what Is, we may arrive at very different beliefs and perceptions than those who ignore what Is in favor of speculating on how It came to Be.

creationists open their minds to all that is around them,
because everything around them was created.
atheists close their minds to everything that was created,
as if everything was created around them.

this is all i have to say.

.


[edit on 5-9-2009 by ET_MAN]

Spell,

I've finished the series, 7 parts to it, and I am sold, that is why I used the word irrefutable, but I do understand what you speak of, I'll explain below.

In terms of your comment, it is more of a blocking mechanism that is employed by the unbelievers to this divine proof of a Creator and His work. It is a conscience decision made by them, it is their free will to choose -- that is the essence of a human being. Do they not have eyes to see, ears to hear, a brain to think on matters of such significance? Surely there are bountiful signs for those who reflect. Great epiphanies are reality in this world to those who ask, who open up to it, have a good heart and are surely being guided.

It is absolutely imperative for one's heart to be open in order to find, discover and embrace the sincerity of the Creators glorious, perfect, and infinitely beautiful creation.

Peace unto ALL

Firstly, I am Agnostic on the issue. Secondly, there are serious problems with some of the arguments you have put forth. This is not an attack on you or your beliefs, or the existence of a God (which I believe is very possible).

Some people are BORN without body parts or with a mental/physical condition. How do you explain this? Sins in their past lives? Sins of their parents? How can this be justified? This is not free will. Being born blind or mentally retarded is not a choice.

Many people in this world suffer great evil. Many good people suffer unjust circumstances. Many bad people receive good while many good people receive bad.

If God is truly the creator, why did he not foresee that certain humans would carry out evil actions. If you knew that your own child had the SLIGHTEST possibility of being the victim or perpetrator of some evil act, would you not take all measures to prevent this from occurring? Why did God not do this for us?

Why does God not provide tangible proof of his existence and instantly grant ALL humans the ability to achieve constant compassion, happiness and prosperity? Why does he not remove all the evil in the world?

"He works in mysterious ways..." is not an acceptable answer. We are asked to believe these extraordinary claims about him, including the idea that he is all-powerful and all-knowing and all-loving.

I ask you this: would a Divine Being who is truly benevolent, knowledgeable to the extreme and who possesses unlimited strength not prevent evil, bring forth happiness and prosperity for all if he could? Why would he instil so many people with the ability to doubt him and his existence? To find holes and ambiguities about his true nature? Does this not suggest that he is willfully deceiving in many ways?

?.

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This series had potential and for the first few vids it was going in the right direction although its flow was a little questionable.

However in the latter vids it became clear that this was an Islamic promo vid, which to me unfortunately lost its momentum.

If it had been a christian slant, I would still have the same opinion. I was hoping this was not going to be a specific religious discussion but simply one of an intelligent creator vs. chance.

oh well

I tried to give it a fair shake but gave up after the first two videos.

Nothing irrefutable. Nothing absolute. No evidence.

Instead, this is just a rehash of the same old tired Aquinian arguments of "first cause" and the watchmaker.

All of these arguments are subject to two fundamental fallacies in logic. For those of you who are more versed in formal logic than I am as a mathematician, perhaps you can supply proper references to these fallacies. I refer to them by names of convenience which I just sort of use by default

1. Inappropriate scale fallacy. This fallacy is assuming that the inferences that are valid and the concepts that make sense at one level of scale must hold at a different level of scale. For example, assumptions of how objects behave at the macroscopic level in terms of path continuity, continuous change in velocity, cause and effect do not hold at the quantum level. So attempting to apply syllogisms that are based on macroscopic observations to explain quantum processes is a fallacy. New agers take note -- it also holds when you try to convince people that quantum processes "explain" macroscopic events.

Interestingly enough, we may also be seeing this fallacy in effect as we observe discrepancies in galactic level (I call it the megascopic level) measurements when we assume macroscopic processes hold at the megascopic level.

2. The linearity fallacy. Non-linear systems display all kinds of interesting behaviours, including self organizing and emergent behaviours. This fallacy is assuming that what is being observed behaves predictably in a linear manner so that emergent behaviour or structure must be due to an external organizing intent rather than being a fundamental property of the system itself.

The universe and what religions call god is far more complex, subtle and mysterious than can be imagined. I would suggest that these kinds of arguments about proving the existence of god (notice it is only the god of the particular religion that puts forth these arguments whose existence is proven) are really more about justifying the right to social, political and economic power enjoyed by these institutional forms of religion.



[edit on 5-9-2009 by metamagic]

Dark Ghost

Dark Ghost...your objections only apply to a very specific, and very small concept of what God is. You speak of "God" as if God is a prudish, bearded man in the sky. I understand you may think of "God" in that way because that's the perspective offered by so many religious people. Many of whom are rather small-minded people.

But let's ask a very simple question. If God were genuinely omnipotent and omniscient...doesn't this whole "prudish, bearded man" idea suddenly seem very silly?

Some people are BORN without body parts or with a mental/physical condition. How do you explain this? Sins in their past lives? Sins of their parents? How can this be justified? This is not free will. Being born blind or mentally retarded is not a choice.

Tripping over a rock isn't something that one "chooses out of free will" either. But it does happen. Sort of like how if you're not paying attention while you walk, you might trip on a rock. Is tripping over a rock a good reason to believe there's no God? I would say no. "Free will" and the ability to make choices does not automatically convey full awareness of the consequences of those choices.

Let's assume we're all spirit-beings. And one day you decide you'd like to incarnate into human form. So you find a pair of humans about to conceive and you choose to incarnate into their baby. BUT you don't do your due diligence and it turns out that there are some problems with the body. Missing arms, or whatever. Does this have anything to do with sin? No. Is this "justification" you're asking for even relevant? No. Is it free will? Yes. You simply didn't know what you were getting into when you made the choice.

Just like somebody who isn't paying attention and trips over a rock. Nobody's going to watch you all day long and stop you from trip[ping over every rock in your life. And nobody's going to follow your soul around through all of eternity and stop you from ever experiencing anything that might be unpleasant.

If God is truly the creator, why did he not foresee that certain humans would carry out evil actions. If you knew that your own child had the SLIGHTEST possibility of being the victim or perpetrator of some evil act, would you not take all measures to prevent this from occurring? Why did God not do this for us?

Why? Whatever for?

When you go to the movies, do you only ever watch G-rated movies? Have you ever seen a drama? Or a sci-fi action flick? Or...a horror film? Somebody created these things, yes? There is a movie entitled "the texas chainsaw massacre." Pretty horrific. Not very fun. Not good, or cheery at all. But nevertheless, somebody made it, and lots of people watch it. Now imagine for a moment that you're a soul whose been around for ten thousands years or so. Maybe you've been through a hundred reincarnations.

Would you really want them to all be G-rated? Would you really want to live that hundred-and-first life of dancing with butterflies in the grass? Or would you maybe consider something a little more exciting? We can see in daily life that there are people who enjoy action and horror flicks. If we're genuinely eternal souls, is it really such a stretch to think that there might be souls who want to live action and horror lives? Even if just to try it?

Why does God not provide tangible proof of his existence and instantly grant ALL humans the ability to achieve constant compassion, happiness and prosperity? Why does he not remove all the evil in the world?

It's all about perspective. Again, remember that this God is supposed to be all powerful, eternal, and omniscient. From the perspective of eternity what's the big deal about the occassional horrific death? Oh, sure...it may be horrible from the perspective of the one experiencing it first hand, but nobody is going to stop you from watching a horror movie. Why should God stop you from experiencing a horror incarnation of life if that's what you choose? And if you don't really understand that that's what you're getting into, then you "trip over the rock" and get to choose another life after this one.

Expecting "constant compassion, happiness and prosperity" as even being a desireable goal is very short-sighted in view of those words: "omniscient, omnipotent, eternal."

I ask you this: would a Divine Being who is truly benevolent, knowledgeable to the extreme and who possesses unlimited strength not prevent evil, bring forth happiness and prosperity for all if he could?

I say with great certainty...NO. A being such as you describe, with wisdom, would defintely not forbid evil, nor impose happiness and prosperity any more than a parent is going to tell a child that he can only watch cartoons all his life, and isn't allowed to watch action adventure, or sci-fi or horror flicks. When a child is young, sure...maybe you keep a close eye on them. But if we're eternal souls, maybe we've grown up enough that we choose for ourselves what we want to watch? What we want to experience?

The word "omniscient" means to "know everything." Happiness, joy, love, compassion...all of these things are part of "everything." But so is sadnes, pain, loss, death and everything else you can imagine.

To see only some few things out of "everything" is to deny a large portion of what is. Do movie theatres only show G movies? Why should souls only be allowed to experience G lives?

Why would he instil so many people with the ability to doubt him and his existence?

Maybe God isn't a terrifed, weak-minded little fool who needs your constant worship and attention to get through the day. Let's say you doubt God. Let's say you deny His existence.

What's the problem? Why should that bother Him?

God is omnipotent, right? God knows everything, yes? And God is eternal? Right? That's the whole premise we're working with, isn't it? So if you want to live a few lifetimes beleiving that you're a monkey, or that the flying spaghetti monster wants your worship, or whatever suits you...why would God stop you?




[edit on 5-9-2009 by LordBucket]