Concluding that 9/11 is a Government Conspiracy is Grotesque, page 5

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reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:16 PM by BlackOps719

So, your telling me that nothing in a building could explode? How about gas or propane heating?

Do us all a big favor and point out ANY case in the history of the entire physical world where a gas line explosion or propane based heating system exploded and caused an entire skyscraper to collapse....AT FREE FALL SPEED.

Then I will show you the episode where the coyote builds an ACME jetpack and whizzles off into space to get an early jump on the approaching road runner

What I love about the official story goons......they have no regard for basic science or the universal laws of physics....whatsoever.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by BlackOps719]

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:17 PM by rogerstigers

reply to post by pteridine

No to derail the subject too much, but the reason, from my understanding, that it was not acted upon was because Kennedy found it reprehensible. Imagine if it was Nixon in office instead?

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:19 PM by Albastion

Originally posted by rogerstigers
reply to post by pteridine

No to derail the subject too much, but the reason, from my understanding, that it was not acted upon was because Kennedy found it reprehensible. Imagine if it was Nixon in office instead?

Thank you.

Just to add though... forget Nixon, we had CHENEY in office.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Albastion]

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:24 PM by Pathos

I don't trust the government myself, and I do think there is plenty of room for the worse case scenario. Look at Obama for example. The guy wreaks of communism and socialistic motivations. I can see where people can be upset with Iraq; however, I do not believe our government would waste the resource, lives, and time on staging 9/11. I just do not see the connection.

After the events occurred, I also thought Bush was responsible. I thought he staged it to gain from wining the 2000 election controversially. I even went as far as remembering back when he spent the first several months hiding in Texas, and he couldn't work out of Washington because of mass protests.

One question that I could not get around was, "What would have been gained from depleting tremendous amounts of resources and lives." If Bush was trying to promote government control and communism, like Obama, I can see how this could be a useful strategy.

If Bush was guilty of anything, anything at all, it would be seeking revenge for Saddam's attempted assassination of his father. The only conundrum I can see is; Why bother attacking another country first? Why not go for Iraq right from the start? Why not stage an accident and place blame directly on Saddam first? Why bother with Afghanistan?

Why deplete precious resources and lives when you can attack the guy directly?

It would be like saying Egypt attacked us, but we are going to attack Canada. Its not logical.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:24 PM by pteridine

Originally posted by BlackOps719
Do us all a big favor and point out ANY case in the history of the entire physical world where a gas line explosion or propane based heating system exploded and caused an entire skyscraper to collapse....AT FREE FALL SPEED.

Then I will show you the episode where the coyote builds an ACME jetpack and whizzles off into space to get an early jump on the approaching road runner

What I love about the official story goons......they have no regard for basic science or the universal laws of physics....whatsoever.

Speaking of no regard for basic science or the universal laws of physics, the buildings did not collapse at "freefall speed."
There is no evidence of demolition of the buildings in spite of many posted videoframes with highlights, circles, and cryptic colored lines.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:25 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by Pathos

You guys have nothing.

That's not exactly correct.

What they DO have is a virus. It is that demon seed of hubris.

The NEED to feel "in the know", and therefore superior to all those that haven't "got it yet".

It's VERY similar to the "Moon Landing Hoax" baloney, in the way it began as a germ of a question, and that germ mutated into a virus, and that virus SPREAD... mush, much faster than the "Moon Hoax", since the Interwebs are so prevalent now, and were also in 2001.

The "Moon Hoax" also began with alleged "experts"...who claimed there were "anomalies"...and immediately jumped to the incorrect assumption of a Grand Conspiracy and Cover-Up of Epic Proportions!!!

Once the "youtubes" were invented, to work so well with the "Intertubes" ("It's a series of tubes!!!" --- former Alaska Senator Ted Stevens, not the Palin one...)

...once all that came together? The misconceptions began. The repeating of those misconceptions, unrelated and incorrect "facts", and maybe even a nudge of some intentional untruthfulness in order to spin it along (there are ALWAYS things to sell to the "devout believers") well, NOW it's reached this EPIC PROPORTION!!!

Little reason to try to shout them down, they will never listen to reason, nor to facts. They truly believe!! Evidence to refute those beliefs be damned!

Evidence that shows their long-held and cherished assumptions are based on bad analogies, flawed "investigations", or whatever rabbit-hole some bit of hearsay has been pulled out of, it never ends. It is always a "Goverment Shill", or a "Sheeple" who has the wool over his eyes, or--insert-your-next-excuse-here--type of thing.

Claims of the "Pilots" or the "Engineers" or the "Physicians" for 'Truth'...well, those are overblown, as to how many are actually in those groups...and even within those ranks, they disagree vehemently with each other, as they develop their own 'sects' of beliefs, very much the way you see religions separate into factions.

My only ability to see through the fallacies is in the area of aviation claims. MOST pilots I know just laugh at the "P4Truth" 'professionals'...who, when you actually look at most of their credentials, are less than impressive.....

The other tools I have at my disposal are my intellect and logic. AND the ability to smell BS when it passes by....

Good luck with this thread. I'm sure you will find it to be entertaining. Too bad the subject is so disgusting.

[edit on 4 September 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:27 PM by pteridine

Originally posted by Albastion

Originally posted by rogerstigers
reply to post by pteridine

No to derail the subject too much, but the reason, from my understanding, that it was not acted upon was because Kennedy found it reprehensible. Imagine if it was Nixon in office instead?

Thank you.

Just to add though... forget Nixon, we had CHENEY in office.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Albastion]

Imaginations are wonderful things and have given us these entertaining theories. According to some, the Reptilians are in control and Judy thinks they whacked the buildings from space. Imagine that.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:28 PM by rogerstigers

Originally posted by Pathos
One question that I could not get around was, "What would have been gained from depleting tremendous amounts of resources and lives." If Bush was trying to promote government control and communism, like Obama, I can see how this could be a useful strategy.

.
.
.

Why deplete your resources when you can attack the guy directly?

It would be like saying Egypt attacked us, so we are going to attack Canada. Its not logical.

I sort of sense a change in tone here Pathos, not that one can really tell from a text post.. *shrug*.

Anyway, I don't personally think that Bush was behind it. I think, if anything, he may have been told later, but I have long felt that the POTUS has no real power anymore. They are simply not there long enough. The political appointees, hired staff, and military officers run this show. POTUS is just a distraction to make us feel like our government is still functioning.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:31 PM by Albastion

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Pathos

You guys have nothing.

That's not exactly correct.

What they DO have is a virus. It is that demon seed of hubris.

The NEED to feel "in the know", and therefore superior to all those that haven't "got it yet".

It's VERY similar to the "Moon Landing Hoax" baloney, in the way it began as a germ of a question, and that germ mutated into a virus, and that virus SPREAD... mush, much faster than the "Moon Hoax", since the Interwebs are so prevalent now, and were also in 2001.

The "Moon Hoax" also began with alleged "experts"...who claimed there were "anomalies"...and immediately jumped to the incorrect assumption f a Grand Conspiracy and Cover-Up of Epic Proportions!!!

Once the "youtubes" were invented, to work so well with the "Intertubes" ("It's a serious of tubes!!!" --- former Alaska Senator, not t he Palin one...)

...once all that came together? The misconceptions began. The repeating of those misconceptions, unrelated and incorrect "facts", and maybe even a nudge of some intentional untruthfulness in order to spin it along (there are ALWAYS things to sell to the "devout believers") well, NOW it's reached this EPIC PROPORTION!!!

Little reason to try to shout them down, they will never listen to reason, nor to facts. They truly believe!! Evidence to refute those beliefs be damned!

Evidence that shows their long-held and cherished assumptions are based on bad analogies, flawed "investigations", or whatever rabbit-hole some bit of hearsay has been pulled out of, it never ends. It is always a "Goverment Shill", or a "Sheeple" who has the wool over his eyes, or--insert-your-next-excuse-here--type of thing.

Claims of the "Pilots" or the "Engineers" or the "Physicians" for 'Truth'...well, those are overblown, as to how many are actually in those groups...and even within those ranks, they disagree vehemently with each other, as they develop their own 'sects' of beliefs, very much the way you see religions separate into factions.

My only ability to see through the fallacies is in the area of aviation claims. MOST pilots I know just laugh at the "P4Truth" 'professionals'...who, when you actually look at most of their credentials, are less than impressive.....

The other tools I have at my disposal are my intellect and logic. AND the ability to smell BS when it passes by....

Good luck with this thread. I'm sure you will find it to be entertaining. Too bad the subject is so disgusting.

More personal attacks, ad hominems, and guilty-by-associations when comparing 9/11 truthers to moon landing hoax believers.

I would say that the inside job believers outnumber the moon hoax believers about 100 to 1. What you are saying is a ridiculous comparison.

And saying that P4Truth guys have "less than impressive" credentials is not only vague, but completely irrelevant. You could at least back up your claims. I guess you are just more interested in name-calling.

All these logical fallacies, and you claim that your tools are intellect and logic. How sad.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:31 PM by TheCoffinman

The only reason i have for questioning 9/11 is the fact that the experts and government cannot agree on this or that. there is no consesus as to what exactly happened. theres video evidence that say the governments story is bullcrap, there is expert testimony, witness testimony, all kinds of substanitial evidence that says the governments official story is bullcrap.. so its a matter of who do you believe..

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:34 PM by KommonKnowledge

these are not not excuses or fallacies or bad analogies, and the reason he didnt just go straight to Iraq, well thats a very easy question to answer! the reason is, because you think we would have just gone along with it< yeah lets attack iraq for no reason, I hope people wouldnt have gone along with but judging by the Op and others who agree with official story its hard to tell. but once we heard alquieda (however you spell it) every american wanted revenge , we all said yeah lets go get there as#s, thats why bush didnt just go attack before, geesh, should anybody really have to explain that, I think its kind of common sense.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:34 PM by randyvs

reply to post by pteridine

You forgot the selected part that Northwoods was never approved nor acted on. The author was sent off to Europe to keep an eye on the Soviets and someone else was tasked with the thinking part of his previous job. The existence of a plan such as this does not imply that it or any other similar construct would particularly be acted on.

correct this isn't proof of anything. accept the fact that we arn't just crazy conspiracy theorists. they do think this way . it also does one more thing for the clever man though. there is a common reaction
one would expect upon disclosure of this type of information to the average citizen. something is usually up, if that reaction is not displayed.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:35 PM by Titen-Sxull

reply to post by Pathos

You honestly think our government wouldn't blow up a few thousand innocent civilians? What sort of naive dream world are you living in? We're talking about a government that dropped two atomic bombs on innocent Japanese civilians killing hundreds of thousands (after they'd rounded up Japanese Americans into concentration camps). A government that did forced sterilizations HERE IN AMERICA on our citizens. And the CIA has come forward revealing some of the seriously screwed up stuff they did to American citizens during their experiments (and who knows what they're not revealing). Electroshock therapy, mind control experiments, irradiating our own soldiers.

The same government that allowed Pearl Harbor to take place despite all the glaring warning signs...

Now I'm not saying the government committed 911, I've looked at all the evidence and I'm not convinced definitively either way. But I am 100% convinced that if the government did NOT have a hand in the attacks they at the very least ALLOWED it to happen.

And it is disturbing, that's the whole thing about WAKING up to the truth, it hurts...

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:36 PM by impressme

reply to post by Pathos

Operation Northwood’s

Operation Northwoods, or Northwoods, was a false-flag plan, proposed within the United States government in 1962. The plan called for CIA or other operatives to commit apparent acts of terrorism in U.S. cities to create public support for a war against Castro-led Cuba. One plan was to "develop a Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".
This operation is especially notable in that it included plans for hijackings and bombings followed by the use of phony evidence that would blame the terrorist acts on a foreign government, namely Cuba.
The plan stated:
The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.
Operation Northwoods was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff and signed by then-Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer, and sent to the Secretary of Defense.
Several other proposals were listed, including the real or simulated actions against various U.S military and civilian targets. Operation Northwoods was part of the U.S. government's Cuban Project (Operation Mongoose) anti-Castro initiative. It was never officially accepted or executed.

en.wikipedia.org...

My opinion is based upon 300 years of United States history. I think this is one sick and twisted conspiracy.

You obviously have not done any “real research”, the United States has been involved in many false flags operation. 911 was no different than “Operation Northwood’s”.

You put to much faith and trust in a corrupt government. I don’t believe for one min the whole government was involved in 911, but I am convince a small loyal group working side by side with Dick Cheney and a very small group in our military orchestrated and pulled of 911, and the FBI help cover- up the crime.

You are entitled to your beliefs but, do not bash people who know the truth because you can’t handle the truth. Who told you that our government is not capable of committing a treasonous act?
To believe that our government is not able to pull off a 911 event is delusional in it self.

Anyone who believes in the OS fits 3 categories.
1. Has never researched 911.
2. Is in Denial.
3. Is a disinformationist.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:37 PM by Pathos

Originally posted by rogerstigers
I sort of sense a change in tone here Pathos, not that one can really tell from a text post.. *shrug*.

Anyway, I don't personally think that Bush was behind it. I think, if anything, he may have been told later, but I have long felt that the POTUS has no real power anymore. They are simply not there long enough. The political appointees, hired staff, and military officers run this show. POTUS is just a distraction to make us feel like our government is still functioning.

If you guys were to tell me that 9/11 was staged by a corporation (lobbyist), given Bush's lack of intelligence, I CAN buy into that type of conspiracy. Bush was too much of an American by nature. If Bush was interested in communism and government control, like obama, I would entertain the notion of a possible government involvement. When Bush grew the size of government, it was out of fear and security. It wasn't out of gaining government control over the populous. We would have had some type of military draft within his second term.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:38 PM by conar

If you take a look at the goal of the truth sites, they all have a common goal:

Demanding a new unbiased investigation into the events of september 11th 2001.

Their goal is harmless.

If the conspiracy turns out to be true though...

Watergate scandal is small compared to this...

Anyone who obstructs the truthers to reach this goal better be very very very sure about what they are doing...

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:42 PM by Pathos

Originally posted by conar
If you take a look at the goal of the truth sites, they all have a common goal:

Demanding a new unbiased investigation into the events of September 11th 2001.

Their goal is harmless.

Lets entertain that thought for a second. Would it truly be unbiased? Someone would gain from a Republican conspiracy. If the Republicans were shown to have developed a conspiracy, who do you think would have gained? Any investigation is not unbiased. It would be political.

Biased evidence could be planted into any investigation. Since it has been ongoing for nine years, I think someone would have found something by now.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:44 PM by Albastion

Originally posted by Pathos
Lets entertain that thought for a second. Would it truly be unbiased? Someone would gain from a Republican conspiracy. If the Republicans were shown to have developed a conspiracy, who do you think would have gained? Any investigation is not unbiased. It would be political.

Logical Fallacy: Appeal to the Consequences of a Belief

Whether or not some people might have something to gain from showing there was a conspiracy is irrelevant to whether or not there was a conspiracy.

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:44 PM by weedwhacker

reply to post by Albastion

I made NO personal attacks, seems that was your ball of wax.

Also, ad hom refers to a specific individual, NOT a group.

The roster at 'P4T' is available to review...I see a lot of people with credentials like "Cessna 152, Left Seat" -- as if that were impressive?

Some in that roster are aircraft mechanics. Some are Air Traffic Controllers. The have the esteemed Capt. John Lear, who used to be a regular 'conspiracy master' here on ATS, but he still maintains his stance that the Twin Towers were hit by "holograms" and "space weapons", although he has NO proof of any of this. There is also a retired gentleman from United Airlines by the name of 'Kip" Wittenberg...let's just say he's well-known for being a bit out there, even before retirement.

OK. there...you wanted 'em, now you have TWO ad homs!! But, are they really?

As to my ability to reason? I can see the continuing contradictions in the "Truth Seekers", which I guess is a nice polite way to catgorize them.

It's already been shown in this thread, since the OP started it. Same old tired 'claims', same rhetoric repeated over and over. I don't have to repeat it, everyone knows what I mean.

The claims of most "Truth Seekers" are outrageous, and as I said, they almost always are contradictory.

FALSE allegations based on FALSE assumptions that are REPEATED so often that people begin to believe.

I can paraphrase a Mark Twain quote about lies, when repeated often enough...but, I'll defer to better judgement and let people research it for themselves.

Same with I think an Abe Lincoln quote...about lies halfway around the World before the truth can get its boots on.....

reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:48 PM by Albastion

Originally posted by weedwhacker

I made NO personal attacks, seems that was your ball of wax.

It doesn't have to be a personal attack for it to be an ad hominem. You are attacking a person or group instead of the ideas that they are putting forth.

With that in mind, do you really think that this isn't a personal attack?

What they DO have is a virus. It is that demon seed of hubris.

The NEED to feel "in the know", and therefore superior to all those that haven't "got it yet".

Right.