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Concluding that 9/11 is a Government Conspiracy is Grotesque

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posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 04:17 PM
reply to post by jprophet420

You said : "Our government" orchestrated pearl harbor.

Careful scholarship seems to back up this claim ... very disturbing in itself ...

But, fergettabout Pearl Harbor ... nobdy should feel a need to go back further than Jack Kennedy's assassination in 1962, and it's subsequent and very 9/11-ish investigation and report by the Warren Commission ...

Evidence of US government 'false flag' operations is everywhere in our nation's history in abundant measure ...

Anyone who denies this has not looked into it for themselves.

Hence, some unsolicited advice for the OP'er -- do some reasearch and get back to us ...

posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 06:39 PM

Originally posted by smurfy
reply to post by Donny 4 million
Hi Donny,
I would be only happy to have more info, please send.

This article comes from


Witnesses link missile to small military jet parts found at Pentagon on 9/11
Date: Monday, May 23 @ 01:59:41 EDT
Topic: 9-11 Attacks

Missile & remote control systems added to small jets before 9-11; same parts found at Pentagon

Two civilian defense contractor employees--told to remain silent--say other workers quietly retro-fitted missile and remote control systems onto A-3 jets at Colorado public airport prior to September 11 when similar A-3 parts much smaller than a Boeing 757 were found at Pentagon

Presidential candidate says scores of retired and active military and intelligence officials would testify before current grand jury probing government involvement in 9/11 attacks

by Tom Flocco

Fort Collins, Colorado -- May 26, 2005 -- --
According to two civilian defense contractor employees working at commercial corporate facilities at Fort Collins-Loveland Municipal Airport (left), in the months before the September 11 attacks U.S. Air Force defense contractors brought in A-3 Sky Warrior aircraft under cover of darkness to be completely refitted and modified at the small civilian airport in Colorado.

The revelations are important evidence for a reportedly ongoing secret 9/11 probe because widely available Federal Emergency Management Administration (FEMA) photographs taken during the attacks clearly show that the few aircraft parts found at the Pentagon belonged to a small jet very similar to a modified A-3 Sky Warrior--not the American Airlines Boeing 757.

It is not known whether all members of Congress are aware of the under-the-radar-screen grand jury proceedings, who has already testified, and whether the probe is purposefully being kept from public knowledge, according to government intelligence sources.
The two witnesses say that separate military contractor teams--working independently at different times--refitted Douglas A-3 Sky Warriors (above) with updated missiles, Raytheon's Global Hawk unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) remote control systems, fire control systems, engines, transponders, and radio-radar-navigation systems--a total makeover, seemingly for an operation more important than use as a simple missile testing platform for defense contractor Hughes-Raytheon.

The employees asked not to be identified for personal safety reasons and fear of job retaliation; but both told 2008 independent presidential candidate Karl Schwarz (left) "the Air Force brought in separate teams to do top-secret military work unrelated to commercial aviation at our airport, and we were told by our bosses not to discuss what we had seen with anyone."

The witnesses were quite fearful about several recent "suicides, car wrecks--mysterious deaths--directly related to the aviation experts" working on the systems that were installed on the A-3’s at Fort Collins-Loveland--having breached the government-blocked information flow at great personal risk, according to Schwarz--but providing more evidence for a New York 9/11 investigation.

Schwarz, a former Republican from Arkansas now living in Georgia and running as an independent to clean up government corruption and crime told that he met with the employees for about an hour in February to discuss the issue.

The witnesses told Schwarz that each jet was placed in a hanger just big enough for a work crew and one A-3 Sky Warrior; and "we were under strict orders not to discuss what the military teams were doing or what we saw."

The presidential candidate told us "there are about 150 retired and active U.S. military and federal intelligence officers who will come forward and testify regarding government involvement in the September 11 attacks--but only if there is a serious criminal grand jury."

Small plane evidence moved at Pentagon

The approximate 16-foot entry hole at the outside facade of the Pentagon on 9/11 has been the subject of countless questions by those who say the hole was caused by an air-to-ground missile (AGM) fired from a small military jet rather than an impact from a Boeing 757.

Interestingly, the Hughes division manufactures the AGMs; and the Raytheon division maintains the last few A-3 Sky Warriors in operation save 2-4 Air Force jets--while also manufacturing the Global Hawk UAV remote control systems.

Some reasons cited to support a missile hole include evidence that a) the wings and rear stabilizer caused virtually no damage to the outside walls and windows at point of impact, b) no 757 interior or exterior parts were found at the scene, c) the soft nose of a 757 would have had difficulty piercing through three Pentagon wall rings, and d) three aircraft parts found were similar to the somewhat outdated but still serviceable Douglas A-3 Sky Warrior military attack jet rather than the much larger Boeing 757.

Air-traffic controllers from the Washington, DC sector originally said the incoming plane was a military jet according to reports; but no grand jury has called them to testify and they have been strangely gagged from speaking out.

One air traffic controller from another Northeast sector revealed to a 9-11 widow that FBI threats were made of both a personal and career nature: "You are ordered never to speak about what you saw on your screen during the attacks; and if you do, things will not go well for you and your family."
Curiously, a large piece of wreckage was found in the entry hole; but the public was kept from closely observing what appears to be a sheared-off piece of wing from a much smaller jet than a Boeing 757.

A group of military personnel and federal officials in suits tightly covered the piece of wreckage with a blue tarp and carried it away to a waiting truck. No reporters or independent aircraft experts have been permitted to examine any of the recovered aircraft parts and no subpoenas have been issued to hear public grand jury testimony from the "movers."

Other government officials who looked more like FBI agents than rescue workers were also photographed moving evidence around immediately after the crash; but none have been subpoenaed to publicly testify as to whether they were bringing evidence to or removing it from a mass murder crime scene.

As if they had prior knowledge, within minutes after the Pentagon crash--FBI agents quickly confiscated a) video tape from a gas station security camera aimed directly at the exact point of impact while recording the size of the plane and/or missile, b) security camera video film from a nearby Sheraton hotel and c) film from a Virginia Transportation Department freeway overpass camera.

This, raising significant questions about obstruction of justice since no reporter, independent crime scene expert or grand jury has been able to view and analyze the film since it was confiscated or certify that it was not tampered with--and those surrendering the film were again told not to discuss the matter.

It is not known whether the FBI has invoked immunity from prosecution regarding this evidence--or cited "National State Secrets" in a manner similar to FBI linguist Sibel Edmonds' case linked to financing the 9-11 attacks, drug money laundering and political campaign contributions.

The explosive evidence raises questions as to whether the grand jury will subpoena all Pentagon wreckage to determine whether it was a section from an A-3 Sky Warrior as many knowledgeable sources believe but also whether the recovered parts do not match a Boeing 757 as asserted by many.

Schwarz told us military officials will likely say the A-3’s were being fitted with system platforms to test-fire missiles; but the time-line of secret refit

posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 06:47 PM
I have posted the above before on other threads. I would have used u2u but the size of the file made me choose this option.
As well as giving this cant to other readers. It fits with a lot of th 911 aircraft mysteries.

posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 07:06 PM
reply to post by Donny 4 million

Is this the same Tom Flocco who was the CEO at Jim Beam???

Or, just an incredible coincidence in names?

Here is the debunking of "Tom Flocco" as a disinfo artist:

posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 07:19 PM
reply to post by weedwhacker

If you can't discredit the information, attack the source.

I thought you weren't going to participate in 9/11 discussions anymore.

Please don't tell me that after all the information that's come out in eight years, you STILL believe the official 9/11 story?

Could anyone really be that gullible, or are the implications of U.S. government complicity too horrific to consider?

posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 07:01 AM

Never will be. No one, not even the those involved could tell you the whole truth of anything. Whether it were really terrorists with government help, or (LOL) Mind controlled reptillian, aliens from Planet Zeemop (which some on this site may believe)...YOU WILL NEVER GET THE WHOLE TRUTH.

A hunt for the truth behind 9/11 is like mining concrete for gold.

posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 08:35 AM
reply to post by GoldenFleece

I thought that it was irreverent to discuss it on the ANNIVERSARY.

Common complaint 'tactic' used the old stand by "attack the messenger".

I refuted another's post, NOT attacked, because the source used IN that post has been shown by others to be invalid. Using additional information to show a fallacy is certainly reasonable, I think. I have already addressed the insanity of the A-3 "theory" at great lengths, no need to repeat it here.

There is no "Official Story" as suggested, I am not 'supporting' any such thing. The "Official Story" mantra has been made up, it is created by the "Truth Movement" as a convenient distraction, and foil for them to focus their derision at.

Regardless of the hopes and dreams of those who claim to seek "Truth", the FACTS of the events of 9/11 in the extant are not refutable. All of this nonsense and these clever "theories" are distractions, and are usually incredibly illogical as well. They are generally based on wild imagination, with no real foundation in reality or technical understanding.

What SHOULD be sought, in the way of "Truth", is the culbability of the Bush Administration (not the entire organization, of course -- but certain individuals) and whether they KNEW of an impending attack of some sort, without full details, and did nothing to stop it.

The levels of complexity suggested by so many of these competing "theories" beggars belief. Hard to understand how reasonable, sane people can buy into them.....

posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 10:06 AM

off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 01:38 PM

off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 02:40 PM
Wow. My 1st post. Sort of had to register after reading this thread. Does anyone here have any qualifications (degree level or above) in the fields of architecture, physics or aviation? One would have to be well versed in one if not all of the above topics to make a very educated opinion on the matter. It just seems that people quote 'facts and figures' that are seemingly plucked out of thin air, as in many debates.

I fully understand why people believe the government may have had something to do with the attacks, governments are often the focus of mis-trust and suchlike. The issue i have with the idea the attacks were planned by the U.S government is the sheer scale of planning such a attack. Think about it. Your talking about organising potentially hundreds of people to perform numerous complex tasks in sync in order to destroy two of the tallest buildings on the planet, on home soil, with no one finding out. Governments find it difficult to organise the most simple of tasks never mind incredibly difficult ones!

Also, anyone involved in the plan would have to agree/go along with it. When were explosive experts sent into the towers? How many explosives would be needed to blow out part of the super structure? Did the office workers notice explosive experts messing about in and around the desks and PC's?

There are so many issues with the idea that the towers were rigged to blow i find it hard to envisage how such a plan came to fruition. The main reason being it would be particularly difficult to find anyone who would willingly go along with the idea.

The 'official' explanation seems far more reasonable. A few angry and missled extremists board flights with knives, overpower the cabin crew and fly into the towers after basic avaition training. Simple and horrifically effective.

On the whole i dont beleive in the conspiricy theories but if anyone can provide some hard, quality and respectable evidence then il be willing to have a look, with an open mind and see where your coming from.

One thing we can all agree on is September 11th was a turning point in human history and one that was bound to court controvesy and emotion.

posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 04:36 PM

Originally posted by GoldenFleece
reply to post by weedwhacker

If you can't discredit the information, attack the source.

I thought you weren't going to participate in 9/11 discussions anymore.

Please don't tell me that after all the information that's come out in eight years, you STILL believe the official 9/11 story?

Could anyone really be that gullible, or are the implications of U.S. government complicity too horrific to consider?


What in the world would you think of some one that continually tells you and others that, whatever you believe is bunk. In other words your opinion does not matter. No matter what you believe or your opinion is about. If you contend that there is more to 911 than an incompetent executive branch. If you believe Raytheon execs, died on aircraft associated with the 911 tragedies. That if you believe that Rumsfeld was telling the truth when he said a missile struck the Pentagon. If you believe that there is not one perpetrator of the TRAGEDIES brought to justice. Not one freggin pep. If you believe that there has not even been a trial associated with the Tragedies. Not one TINY BIT of evidence CROSS EXAMINED. What kind of logic is that? I for one would not sleep well if I possessed that kind of mind. It would be easier for me to believe someone held a gun to Laura's head that day and told George to go play with the kids in Florida.

posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 05:20 PM
reply to post by Donny 4 million
Hi Donny,
Thanks for the posts and info. I didn't know what you were referring to when you said "the A3 Denver bomber" (I had heard about the old A3 Skyhawk or Skywarrior, of the late 50's but didn't connect right away) I had already made a lengthy reply to you tonight, but lost it all when AOL's connection failed. For the moment i'll try again to find out about the White smoke seen in the Pentagon video, not so much as to why it's white,(not jet fuel) but as to why it is LONG wavy,(as seen). I'm also sure that the video shows something that is at as near to ground level as can be for something flying, so much for a crappy pilot!

[edit on 14-9-2009 by smurfy]

posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 05:35 PM
reply to post by smurfy

I'm also sure that the video shows something that is at as near to ground level as can be for something flying, so much for a crappy pilot!

smurfy, you (and no doubt others) may be shocked to learn that I don't really put much credibility in that video animation you are talking about. It makes many leaps of logic.

Just like a lot of the "Truther" examinations, and many of their 'conclusions', I think that particular video is just ONE person's possible interpretation. And, it doesn't really tend to agree with other data.

If you really want to examine some of the evidence of Flight 77, take a look at the Flight Recorder info that is posted by the NTSB. I've linked the stuff before, but best not to try to steer you, except to suggest you have a peek.

There's so much noise out there, you need good filters.

posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 06:14 PM
reply to post by weedwhacker
Hi Weed, I have seen same NTSB er, animation, and I dare say will look at it again and again. I know there are various Pentagon videos and analysis out there, but this is the mainstream one I am referring to,

Who's Jim Ritter?

Who's Jim Ritter? (see paragraph fourth from bottom)

[edit on 14-9-2009 by smurfy]

posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 08:57 PM
reply to post by smurfy

Happens to me all the time. Check out some of the SEVENTH's threads
I think he has one exclusively about smoke and fire type. He is cool! I'll visit one and try to give you more info.
A phosphorous napalm mix may be able to explain a lot of molten steel.
No tellin what you could pack into one of those flying bombs.

posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:29 AM

Originally posted by smurfy
Who's Jim Ritter?

The T in NTSB stands for "transportation". They do not exclusively investigate airplane crashes, but any accident involving any form of transportation. That would include - along with airplanes - cars, buses, trains, boats of all sizes, golf carts, bicycles and yes even Segways. Just because someone is a spokesperson for the NTSB does not make him/her an expert on airline disasters.

posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 10:46 AM
reply to post by smurfy

I've heard that 'phone call' posted by YT member "johndoeXLC" before. Typical commando tactics by P4T. This same YT member posted the NTSB animation, including his silly text comments interspersed throughout.

Listening, again, to the bloke calling Jim Ritter, he doesn't sound (to my ear) like a pilot at all. At least, the terminology he uses is not indicative of the way pilots speak.

Here are some of the comments on this, taken from YT:

MuckupAgain (1 year ago)
I think he called back to explain that it was not his place to enter into further discourse on the subject. As he said, he reported the facts of the case (the FDR traces being facts).

As i understand it, the NTSB reports to the FBI in this case. It is then the FBIs responsibility to report the findings (i'll get around to your reference when i can).

Perhaps you can indulge me a little: is the altitude data in the FDR is based on one altimeter feed? Is the baro setting also recorded?

johndoeXLC (1 year ago)
Im sorry Muck, but i dont have much time today. Please feel free to email us or join our forum for tons of information. Specifically in the pinned topics of our AA77 forum at pilotsfor911truth*org/forum. We also have radar altitude. Shows too high. The NTSB/FBI refuse to correct, comment, retract etc. Unprecedented. Also, none of the 4 aircraft on 9/11 were positively Identified via parts. Also unprecendented. Visit our site for more.


revtrst (4 months ago)
Are these pilots qualified to analyze FDR data? Are you qualified? And how many pilots, engineers, mechanics etc are there in the world. PFT has but a TINY number of them. And what are you talking about altimeter readings and time stamps? I said nothing regarding either one.

MuckupAgain (1 year ago)
Sorry to ask questions that may already have been dealt with, but info like this is sketchy on the web.

I think i would just like to know whether the altitude reading to the FDR is infallible? If Baro settings are not recorded then, in theory, the altitude means nothing other than informing us what the pilot was seeing on his alt. at the time.


revtrst (4 months ago)
A washed up RJ pilot who thinks he knows more about FDR than the NTSB.  Very, very, very sad.

Now, I don't personally know these people. The 'johndoe' character is obviously with P4T.

The guy I find most amusing is "revtrst" -- a name I take to mean 'reverse thrust', and THAT is a pilot reference if I've ever heard one, from a JET pilot likely.

Anyway, the guy in the recording from P4T?? His accent sounds Canadian (not that there's anything wrong with that), and of course there are pilots, even airline pilots in Canada. But, this guy, whoever he is, is very antagonistic.

I know they keep repeatedly flashing the NTSB frame grabs, superimposing the discrepancy...and that is simple nitpicking.

The implication being made is trying to support the "North of Citgo" argument, so some at CIT and P4T tend to work in concert in that effort, others disagree even AT P4T. (Joun Lear, for instance, says there was NO AIRPLANE!!!) So, even they can't get their story straight.

AS TO the ground track depicted in the NTSB animation --- the accuracy of the IRS units (Inertial Reference System) in the final moments of the flight is not sufficient for precise determination of exact positions. The importance of the NTSB data was simply to indicate, in a graphic format, the final moments, especially the speeds, altitudes and headings.

The IRS's at that time, 2001, on that equipment did NOT use GPS updating. The machines use laser-ring gyroscopes, and accelerometers to determine positon, after initialization at a known location on the ground (before departure from the gate). There is inherent 'drift' in the calculated postion info over time, and that is refined and corrected to some degree by the upadating that WAS in use, then...VOR and DME.

'VOR' is VHF Omnidirectional Range (or radio, some call it either) and 'DME' is Distance Measuring Equipment. Basically, using various radio signals from ground stations, with known locations, the units triangulate, and compare that to the computed info to the IRS computed info regarding location, and an average is made to try to maintain as much accuracy as possible.

IRS position data is used for navigation, but not Instrument Approaches, and such, were more EXACT position accuracy is needed. Using JUST IRS position is fine for over-water Nav, for example. There, a matter of 1/2 mile in error isn't that big a deal.

Sorry for the extensive aviation lesson. Free, today. Normal hourly instruction rates are waived.

[edit on 15 September 2009 by weedwhacker]

posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 11:34 AM
I'm late to the thread but... I just can't ignore the OP....

Originally posted by Pathos
Concluding that 9/11 is a Government Conspiracy is Grotesque
But inevitable nonetheless if you actually look at the holes in the official story. That would mean you holding your nose, fighting down your disgust, and doing some research. I won't hurry you. Like any Big Lie, for some people letting go if it is difficult.

If I have to relate the comments in this section to a specific person, I would have thought they were coming from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. According to that creep over in Iran, he said that the Holocaust never happened. I see people in these boards saying the exact same thing, but they replaced the Holocaust with 9/11.

You're clearly someone who takes the MSM point of view very seriously. I have no brief for Ahmedinejad but equally well I recognise he's become the handle on which to hang the propaganda campaign against Iran, which the neocons desperately wanted to invade, or at least attack, right to the last. I don't know of his remarks on the Holocaust (and I'm not going to check now, sorry) but it's definitely the case that he was mistranslated when he was supposed to have made the remark about "wiping Israel off the map". The people responsible were MEMRI, an Israeli think tank who have people on the media in the US, UK and elsewhere, defending Zionism and spreading disinfo.

Your government lies to you. All the time. You really, really need to acknowledge that fact even before looking into 9/11.

I am not sure if some of you get off on this debate. I do not understand how a person could blame a sitting US President for killing 2,000+ of his own citizens. I find it revolting, grotesque, and freakish.

Like many people on this board, I don't think Dubya hisself had too much to do with it. I think he was presented with a fait accompli and he just had to front it out. Why would they include someone so dumb? No doubt you think that it's revolting, grotesque and freakish to say something like that about a one-time POTUS, but you know out in the free world we don't have that religious attachment to the one who's supposed to be our leader.

I keep asking myself "What type of human being do you have to be in order to believe 9/11 is a conspiracy?" After pondering this question for a few days, I concluded that there is something seriously wrong with some of you.

What about the ones that don't have anything wrong with them?

American Exceptionalism

Mmm yes... sorry, it's pathetic for those of us who actually know what the US has been doing for the past 50 years. I tuned out when the guy said the US didn't throw its weight around after WWII... If you had any idea of the role the US and the CIA has played in subverting democracy around the world, you wouldn't be so starry-eyed. But that would mean you'd have to get our head around the idea that the US isn't some glorious shining "city on the hill". It's corrupt in every way, and the rest of the world pays the price.

What you 'truthers' lack is a shred of humanity.

Actually what we lack is the ability to believe the corporate nonsense we're fed. My humanity's fine: how's yours? As a test, you might like to look at this thread which is unconnected to 9/11 which nonetheless deals with a very real conspiracy to cover up war crimes. It contains pictures which might allow you to check your humanity. Who's telling the truth, the government, or the peoplw who oppose them?

posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 12:52 PM
Seems a few here are having problems deciphering between Jet fuel explosions and missiles (probably Napalm based for longevity in burning and carbon monoxide gases, cannot have impact level eye witnesses living to tell the tale).

Picture one clearly emphasises a cookie cutter jet fuel explosion - orange flames and high oxygen levels omitting white smoke, notice a missile shaped object omitted also, a split second later all hell brakes loose, notice the shadow of the ejected engine is clearly visible in both pictures hence the timing of both explosions.....

Hope this clears matters up, if not, try looking with both eyes open.

posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 01:14 PM
It is great to see that this thread still continues despite the thread creator having claimed last week that he has had enough.

I also don't know why everyone is still discussing how 9/11 happened.

Yeah, it happened, and no matter how we find out how it was caused, the most important thing (again) is to find out WHO did it.

If there were explosions here and there, were they caused by the US government, Mossad or the terrorists themselves? If the explosions occurred afterwards, then it may have been because the terrorists had the right connections to implant them beforehand. OR the government had the the right connections.

THESE are the questions.

Were these connections from the government or not? Maybe it was the Israeli companies in 9/11 that laid the explosives. No one can tell. Maybe Rumsfeld? Cheney?

The actual question to ask is: Was it the US government? Mossad? Both? Was it Al Quaida? Was it the Taliban? Who?

The former Italian President (as I quoted before from the Italian state newspaper Corriere della Sera) said it was the US and Mossad. Many have proof. Is this real proof? Or just information provided over the Internet to get people excited?

It is clear that the Osama Bin Laden confession tape is fake. But does that mean the US government took advantage of the attacks or actually made them happen?

Obviously they took advantage by attacking three countries consequently over the past 8 years - from Afghanistan to Iraq to Pakistan.

They only care about those countries BECAUSE THERE'S OIL THERE! DUHH!!

Did anyone give a damn about Rwanda and the Hutus in the 90s?? No one!! Why? There was nothing there to gain from! So people were left to die!

Does anyone care about the diamond countries that are portrayed in Hollywood movies like something that wouldn't really happen?? The movie Blood Diamonds describes the truth. Does any government care??? Of course not!! They only care about the diamonds, not about the people. Let them die for all they care. As long as they get their god damned diamonds.

The government hires private companies like Blackwater/XE to go into Iraq just to kill innocent people. Do you think they care who dies? Nooo, they only care about oil, diamonds, money!! They don't care less if people die, including their own people! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!

Should we still remain disrespected by the "anti-conspiracy-theorists", who think we're full of crap? Can't they see the logic? We are not stupid! We are not ignorant! We are not brainwashed.

It is those who do not believe in government conspiracies who are brainwashed! They believe the US government is innocent. How is that possible??? The US government? Innocent? Don't make me laugh!!!

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