Concluding that 9/11 is a Government Conspiracy is Grotesque

Hello

It seems that to be patriotic means to blindly follow.

IMO if it wasn't for the wise minority in every society (Canadian in my case); those that question most everything (in the coffee shop), ask for clarification when things are a shade of grey (at public inquiries), or remind those in power of their responsibility to accountability (at election time), then the theory and quality of democracy would cease to evolve and progress.

On a side note, our national broadcasting station (CBC) is running a Conspiracy Files: The Third Tower special report.

cheers

www.cbc.ca...

apologies if this is not done properly.

You win?



Using the fake Alex Jones interview to prove everything "truthers" have said is a hoax?



You just proved again that you haven't researched anything at all. A good amount of the "truthers" don't care for anything coming out of Alex Jones mouth.

The only thing he ever did was predict something happening in New York in 2001 before anything happened. That's the only thing I give him credit for. Never cared for the guy myself. Little too disinformation-like IMHO.

By the way

The fact you came back and the first thing you typed is "I win" shows your immaturity and how you're not taking this seriously. You view this as a competition. It's nothing more than a game to you. That's sad and pathetic

[edit on 8-9-2009 by nightmare_david]

The day that I saw the military timelines with the words "Shot Down over Shanksville, PA," in 2002...I've never once believed a word of the CNN Truth.

I even asked once of the Commanders I worked with about the timeline, and he just shrugged. Almost like, "who cares?"

A true military sheep. I may be Military, but I am NOT a sheep like that guy. I have always been taught to follow the most productive intel, and so far...it all points to DC.

Wow!!!
Thanks truthers and other decent Americans that have trounced the
used dog food out of the spooks. The lie of 911 is a very serious false flag that must be brought to light. I encourage the most in depth research on this subject. You can follow the back stabbing tactics right back to the cowardly destruction of the last Russian czar and his family.

To the OP

I dont think that YOU have paid much attention thru the years. Disturbing?
Hell yes!

Are we disturbed? Hell no.

We as well as 90 percent of the world know the truth by applying simple
deductions and putting 2 and 2 together.

How anyone could still doubt any of what went down at this late date is just ridiculous.

Since this thread is attached to my profile, I feel obligated to address this issue further. Instead of falling into that 'truther' mindset over 9/11, I want to show people what a 'true' conspiracy looks like.

Main premise to 'truthers': 9/11 was planed and executed by the United States government. After digging into the background story presented, there are hundreds of theories attached to 9/11. Its all bull. Since it would require a hell load of people, resources, and time, the successful run of a 9/11 conspiracy would have failed. Too many pieces to move on the board, and a very little time to move them in. You will see why next.

Here is a 'true' conspiracy: As the war on Afghanistan played out, a small group of US government officials did create a conspiracy. You see it wasn't 9/11 that was the conspiracy. It was the 'use' of 9/11 to spring board the United States into Iraq. Even though 9/11 was an actual attack on American civilians by real terrorists, the war was tainted by how it was used afterwords.

In order for any successful conspiracy to work, only a handful of people can get involved. If you have more than four people in the group, the entire operation will fall apart rather quickly. Someone is guaranteed to open their mouth about the operation; thus, turning in their fellow conspirators.

When it came to using the event of 9/11 to get into Iraq, there were only eight people mainly involved. Yes, Dick Cheney was one of them. All they had to do was work with information, which was easily manipulated and controlled within a few reports. Other words, the instruments used to execute the conspiracy were easily manipulated and mobile. If there were any doubts in the operation, they can easily shred the documents. Within a mater of moments, the proof would evaporate into thin air. When you look at all the working parts to 9/11, there are way too many elements to move around.

Something the size of 9/11 would have taken years to plan, and George Bush was only in office for nine months. Sure, Dick Cheney worked in government for a really long time; however, he was only interested in expanding the power behind the Presidency. All that is required is the manipulation of paperwork, experience, and legal knowledge. Small and mobile parts. Cheney had access to those elements at the tip of his fingers. He didn't need to do anything except talk to lawyers. Its a simple operation.

Lets use another possible conspiracy as my example:
If the JFK assassination was a conspiracy, the number of people and elements involved would need to be minimal. As you know from history, one man was blamed for pulling the trigger. According to several of the theories, a small group of CIA agents may have been involved. That is a perfect example. Since there was only a few people involved, the possibility of a conspiracy is definitely on the table.

Oswald was the patsy for the JFK assassination, and George Tenant was the patsy for the invasion of Iraq.

Do you see where I am getting at? Mobility, only a few people involved, etc... That is one of the main reasons why 9/11 was NOT a conspiracy. It would have had too many elements.

Something to think about:
www.debunking911.com...

[edit on 8-9-2009 by Pathos]

Reply to post by Pathos

Oh my gosh! A return of Pathos the wise one! Just back to avoid more questions or to say what you have repeated throughout this thread? I'm very interested who made you the leader of the human race and the true seeker of conspiracies? You have failed horribly at convincing people otherwise with all your 'facts'. Why the need to just say the same thing over and over. Well in fear of becoming a repetitive Pathos I think I should take my leave. Bye Pathos glad I could have a conversation with myself.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Reading through these posts I feel for all atsers who are stuck in between. I guess i would consider myself a "truther" but I don’t fit into the picture painted here. Was 911 orchestrated by the us government or bin laden? not sure. either way, how the situation was handled after the fact is despicable. The 911 commission report, which ignored eye witness accounts, which didn’t follow the money and deemed it unimportant, which didn’t listen to all the experts, calls a couple issues into question. Why ignore all pertinent data and what for.

It is impossible for anyone here to say one way or the other that the terrible, life changing events that happened on that day were by the hand of one side or the other. The only thing that is clear to me, a faithful US citizen proud of the PEOPLE of this country, is that HOW those events were used by our government are equally despicable. More citizens of this country have died fighting in a war with no enemy, a war with no end, a war in response to this single event that it makes me ask the most logical question. What are we fighting for? A war which began to find a man in a cave, that rages to this day, crossing multiple boundaries, extending budget deficits paid for by the tax payers of this country, ending the lives of tens of thousands innocent people on this planet in the hope that finding this man will make us safe again. Bull.

As a US citizen I would like to think that I can affect what is happening NOW in this country, but perhaps I am the naïve one. The distraction of the events past and their meaning are of no consequence if we don’t do anything about it now. Weather you believe the official story or not, I don’t give a crap. But to think that the people paying for the war now have a say in it, whether with their lives, liberties or wallets, that’s the big conspiracy.

My thing is this:

I have always stated that the word TRUST and NAIVE are one in the same. If you believe someone, it's almost always because you trust them. But always believing is the root of being naive.

To find the middle ground between being naive and not believing anything, you have to look at the data from all different angles, points of view, and the multiple sources from which data can be attained. If your significant other continuously works late, and tells you that they're working late, then trust/naivity would allow you to believe this. Now...after "trusting" this person for so long, if someone were to say, "Hey, I think I saw your significant other with someone else," your initial reaction would be to deny this. Now...another person comes to you with a small bit of proof that may lead to the fact that your significant other is seeing someone else. Still though, your trust won't allow you to believe this person could be capable of hurting you on this level, thus this small proof must not be accurate. But after 8 LONG YEARS of continuous proof coming your way, how strong would your convictions still be to this person's truth-telling of working long hours. How naive would you still be at this point?

Accepting full truth from a single source is naive, no matter how much you trust them. ESPECIALLY when dealing with the government, and MOST IMPORTANTLY...when evidence proves otherwise. No matter how much it hurts or shocks...the truth is the truth.

Originally posted by Pathos
I changed the thread's original title, so it more closely reflects what is being said. I find their logic very distasteful. Many of them do not have a single ounce of pride in their nation.

Loving your country is a whole different thing to loving your government or your army. I hope you figure this out.

Your telling me that our government did this:"

I'm not really into nitpicking about people's grammar and so on, because my own grammar aint the greatest. But why is it that all of the "patriot" 9/11 deniers obviously were asleep in english class when contractions were being explained?

I'm honestly not trying to be insulting here, but as an armchair anthropologist, I find it really interesting on a personal level. I'm a devil for details like this. Anyhow, a lot of you patriot "the government didn't do it" guys are badly educated and appear to swallow whatever the government tells you. I'm still pondering the social reasons for this situation existing. It's actually pretty contradictory. The badly educated lower classes you'd expect, would be more suspicious of their governments. Funny how life works.

Just to compare to something more recent, Sadam poisoned his own people. Why is it so hard to believe. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. You just don't want to see that you live in a cage. Your on a leash and if you pull it too hard your gonna get jerked back. You should really see some of the pentagon videos. I saw 1 with 2 cops who put the plane on a different path than the 9/11 commision stated. I wish I had the link, but I'm pretty sure the link came from a post here. Just open your mind and say to yourself, why not. During the history of the human race people have killed others to get what they want. Why not now? Why did all the scrap metal from NY get moved and SHIPPED OUT OF COUNRTY so quickliy without an investigation? Why did Bush block an investigation for a year? Why were there no bodies in DC and in PENN? Why are (I believe the number is) 12 of the supposed hijackers still alive? Why was one of the believed hijackers dead almost 2 years before the attack? ON and ON..you will just have to look for yourself. Yes it is disgusting that our own Gov. would do this..but we are only as good as livestock to them anyway.

I totally believe the US government planned this attack on there own people to provoke fear and warrant a war with the middle east ... just look at video footage of the new yorkers reactions when the event was unfolding, many of them saying we should go to war and bomb these arab countries ...

As for the fact that the twin towers were specifically built to withstand a jumbo jet crashing into them just makes u wonder how two such substantial buildings were brought to the ground in less than 2 hours!!!!!!

This was a well planned and well executed exercise which got its desired effect!!! IMO obviously!

Originally posted by Lazyninja

Originally posted by Pathos
I changed the thread's original title, so it more closely reflects what is being said. I find their logic very distasteful. Many of them do not have a single ounce of pride in their nation.

Loving your country is a whole different thing to loving your government or your army. I hope you figure this out.

Your telling me that our government did this:"

I'm not really into nitpicking about people's grammar and so on, because my own grammar aint the greatest. But why is it that all of the "patriot" 9/11 deniers obviously were asleep in english class when contractions were being explained?

I'm honestly not trying to be insulting here, but as an armchair anthropologist, I find it really interesting on a personal level. I'm a devil for details like this. Anyhow, a lot of you patriot "the government didn't do it" guys are badly educated and appear to swallow whatever the government tells you. I'm still pondering the social reasons for this situation existing. It's actually pretty contradictory. The badly educated lower classes you'd expect, would be more suspicious of their governments. Funny how life works.

Thanks for your post Laz

What most people who do not research history fail to understand is that the American government has been hijacked and forced to kneel to incredibly devious and barbaric interests.
The American way is solid. It is under attack for sure. But it is Marxist not Anyone else.

Originally posted by Cotechs
The day that I saw the military timelines with the words "Shot Down over Shanksville, PA," in 2002...I've never once believed a word of the CNN Truth.

I even asked once of the Commanders I worked with about the timeline, and he just shrugged. Almost like, "who cares?"

A true military sheep. I may be Military, but I am NOT a sheep like that guy. I have always been taught to follow the most productive intel, and so far...it all points to DC.

I am not sure what a military time line is. I am convinced that the aircraft destroyed, was not done as the OS says also. Can you tell us about the timeline. Is it documented some where .
thanks

Originally posted by Pathos
What?!?!

Wait. Wait. Financial gain? What did we gain financially?

Oh, I see where you're coming from now. You are so blind in your patriotism that you think of 'we' as a nation. It's not what 'we' as a nation gained but what 'we' as the few that truly control things gained. Dude, you call us inhumane and blah blah blah for questioning what so obviously needs to be questioned. I'm sure, in the MANY responses to this thread that there are the DOZENS of declassified documents on projects that our government ran on its own citizens (killing many) in the pursuit of gaining advantages. So, the sacrifice of the few for the benefit of the many has ALWAYS been there for our government to take advantage of. Our history is completely inundated with examples of this my friend.

So who is the delusional one? One that will so blindly follow what he is told by his government soley based on the fact that it is his government or one who will have that patriotic guts to question them when they get out of hand. You really should read and fully understand the WHY behind the Constitution. If you do then you will understand why it is our TRUE DUTY to question events like this.

Because quite frankly, lie to me once, shame on you, lie to me a dozen more times and it's piss on you and prove it from now on. They didn't prove it with their 'commission'.

Originally posted by Pathos
Fact: No one here can. No one can debunk Mr. Kilsheimer.

Really?
Here is what your Mr. Kilsheimer claimed.

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building.

From the source your provided.
www.popularmechanics.com...


Here is what firsthand 911 Pentagon eyewitness Mike Walter's said about what he saw happening with the wings.

what I saw was the actually Jet going in with the wings folding back like this.

Listen to what he say from 7:20 of this video.
Reichstag 911 : Pentagon Part II



You find Mike Walter’s (specially) adapted testimony without the folding wings here .



How do you explain that all with what your Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer claimed about what happened with the wings and the marks he saw of the plane wing on the face of the building.

“A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground ; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. What was left of the plane flowed into the structure in a state closer to a liquid than a solid mass. "If you expected the entire wing to cut into the building," Sozen tells PM, "it didn't happen.”

I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building.

So who is telling the truth, or are they in fact both telling different lies?


[edit on 9/9/09 by spacevisitor]

[edit on 9/9/09 by spacevisitor]

Everybody is going too far back into the thread. See my post above (#6) to see where we are now.



[edit on 9-9-2009 by Pathos]

You know what two words:

"Magic Bullet"

The End

Suckers

Originally posted by Pathos

Do you see where I am getting at? Mobility, only a few people involved, etc... That is one of the main reasons why 9/11 was NOT a conspiracy. It would have had too many elements.

how many people, and how much time did it take to develop the atom bomb?
did they keep it a secret?

how many masons are there throughout the last , say, 100 years, and have they been able to keep their secrets?
sorry, incredulity is not an argument. if you have enough people who believe in a cause, they will keep it secret. especially when it's a case of "take the money or be killed" on top of the idealogical motivation.

Originally posted by billybob
how many masons are there throughout the last , say, 100 years, and have they been able to keep their secrets?

Free Masons are harmless. I should know. I have two in my family. Masons are local business owners who only seek more business.

The Atom Bomb wasn't a conspiracy.