Pastor shot by police, caught on video., page 1
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 6 times


reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 02:46 PM by jprophet420
reply to post by Dr Love


The fact that the car didn't hit the officer with deadly force, which would warrant using deadly force back. The suspect was quite obviously fleeing and not attacking.


reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 03:21 PM by jprophet420
reply to post by Aggie Man


Absolutely not. A bullet moving at 100fps cannot kill you, nor can a small car traveling at >5mph. Deadly force was not used by the pastor in any way shape or form. He was guilty of fleeing an officer, but not endangering his life. Secondly, the car was in drive when the suspect was shot, and the officers were behind and beside the car, in way of no threat to bodily harm.


reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 03:23 PM by Aggie Man
Originally posted by jprophet420
reply to post by Aggie Man


Absolutely not. A bullet moving at 100fps cannot kill you, nor can a small car traveling at >5mph. Deadly force was not used by the pastor in any way shape or form. He was guilty of fleeing an officer, but not endangering his life. Secondly, the car was in drive when the suspect was shot, and the officers were behind and beside the car, in way of no threat to bodily harm.


5mph or not, it's still a 2500+ pound vehicle. Now that's deadly crushing ability. AND death can occur at 5mph...slow doesn't mean safe. What about the harm to the general public? The cops didn't know who this guy was, they only knew that he fled, struck an identified officer and was a potential threat to everyone else.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Aggie Man]


reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 03:28 PM by jprophet420
reply to post by Aggie Man


Your literal definition leaves a lot of room for inference. For example water can kill you. Therefore a watergun is a deadly weapon. However, in the legal sense of the word deadly force was not used by the suspect, nor is it present when you are carrying a watergun.

Deadly force is generally defined as physical force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury. In order for deadly force to be justified there must be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents. Deadly force is that force which could reasonably be expected to cause death or grave bodily harm.




[edit on 4-9-2009 by jprophet420]



reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 03:35 PM by Aggie Man
Originally posted by jprophet420
reply to post by Aggie Man


Your literal definition leaves a lot of room for inference. For example water can kill you. Therefore a watergun is a deadly weapon. However, in the legal sense of the word deadly force was not used by the suspect, nor is it present when you are carrying a watergun.

Deadly force is generally defined as physical force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury. In order for deadly force to be justified there must be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents. Deadly force is that force which could reasonably be expected to cause death or grave bodily harm.




[edit on 4-9-2009 by jprophet420]


so you are saying that a moving vehicle is NOT readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury?

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Aggie Man]


reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 03:51 PM by jprophet420
reply to post by Dr Love


Like I said it fits the literal definition but it defies the legal definition, and the legal definition is the one the police have to answer to.

In order for deadly force to be justified there must be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm

However, do we let criminals go that shoot at, but miss a cop?


No, of course not. However the car did hit the cop and did not cause any harm. No deadly force was present. In the example of the gun deadly force is used but misdirected.

so you are saying that a moving vehicle is NOT readily capable of causing deadly force?

Of course not. I am saying that in this case it was not. This fact is PROVEN as the car collides with the officer and no harm is done.


reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 04:30 PM by Aggie Man
reply to post by jprophet420


Deadly force is generally defined as physical force which, under the circumstances in which it is used, is readily capable of causing death or serious physical injury. In order for deadly force to be justified there must be an immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to yourself or other innocents. Deadly force is that force which could reasonably be expected to cause death or grave bodily harm.


1. Physical force? Check (moving vehicle)
2. Readily capable? Check (of course a moving vehicle is readily capable)
3. Immediate, otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm? Check (threat to every pedestrian and driver via the readily capable physical force of the vehicle)
4. Other innocents? Check (every pedestrian and driver)
5. Reasonably be expected to cause death or grave bodily harm? Check (reckless driving can be reasonably expected to cause death or grave bodily harm via physical force)

It meets every criteria.


reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:16 PM by jprophet420
reply to post by Aggie Man


If this were the case it would be standard procedure to shoot fleeing suspects making their getaway in a vehicle, yet it is not.

I openly admit he was in the wrong for fleeing. The punishment for fleeing is not being shot, period.



reply posted on 4-9-2009 @ 05:24 PM by Aggie Man
Originally posted by jprophet420
reply to post by Aggie Man


If this were the case it would be standard procedure to shoot fleeing suspects making their getaway in a vehicle, yet it is not.

I openly admit he was in the wrong for fleeing. The punishment for fleeing is not being shot, period.


Only fleeing vehicles in which the vehicle was used as a deadly weapon. In this case it was. So, no...it would not fall under "standard procedure" to shoot to kill any suspect that is fleeing that has not exhibited the actions that define deadly weapon.

Whether the intent to strike the officer was in the mind of the pastor or not, it still was deadly force. The law does not specify that the deadly force has to be intended, only that it is used.

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Aggie Man]
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