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Indoctrination

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posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:10 PM
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With all this talk about indoctrination, I though we might explore what it really means and our thoughts about it.

My guess is that people are just fine with indoctrination, as long as they agree with the subject. For example:



Did you hear that? It's the ORIGINAL pledge!

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America
And to the Republic, for which it stands.
One nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

So, it's probably all right to indoctrinate our kids to pledge themselves to a flag and a country, huh?

What about this?:



Is that ok?

Does this cross a line?



Does this scare anybody? (watch it all):



I just wanted to open up the discussion about this word "indoctrination", especially where the nation's children are concerned. And I don't know about you guys, but some of this stuff scares me a whole lot more than the president encouraging them to get good grades...




posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:26 PM
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Fact is that schools are already full of indoctrination. This ranges from teachers injecting their own views to school administrators and school boars dictating what is to be taught, and how it is to be taught. Many of these views go against parent's belief and sometimes even against society's belief.

I actually had teachers tell me that they were glad the children had to wear uniforms so that the poor children wouldn't have to worry about not being able to dress as good as the rich kids. Is this really a reason to require uniforms?

Think about it this way, Obama is giving one speech, while teachers are giving speeches everyday. Which of the two do you think have the best chance at indoctrinating your kids?



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:31 PM
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S&F!!! I was going to post something similar the other day, but figured it would just become a flame war, so I opted out. It's great to see that you did though!




posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:32 PM
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You have a valid point!

It is fine as long as it goes along with the norm! But what is the norm?

I have no problem with indoctrinating our children into these "inevitable truths" that our founding father's believed! And I have no problem in parents indoctrinating their own children in the religion or family ways.

I have a HUGE problem with a Public School or University trying to indoctrinate something other than the fundamental basics of the country, or cold hard facts of math, science, and language!

I have a HUGE problem with anybody besides the parents trying to indoctrinate or "minister" or "witness" or "mission" their religion to the children!

So, I give you the fact that Indoctrination is somewhat accepted and even unavoidable, but I think it is fairly clear when it crosses the line!

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with Obama's planned speech to the schools! I don't even have a problem with most University professors being Liberal, and pushing that opinion on their students!

I do have a problem with the debate of Creationism vs. Darwinism in schools. I think they should teach both "theories," because that is what they both are. I think schools should teach facts, and anything beyond a fact should be clearly communicated as theory or opinion, and the students should be allowed to draw their own conclusions!!



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
I do have a problem with the debate of Creationism vs. Darwinism in schools. I think they should teach both "theories," because that is what they both are. I think schools should teach facts, and anything beyond a fact should be clearly communicated as theory or opinion, and the students should be allowed to draw their own conclusions!!


But that is what church is for. There is no "church" for Darwinism. Besides, we have a separation of Church and State. Creationism of any kind is a religious philosophy; therefore, should not be taught in publicly funded schools.

EDIT: Creationism also does not follow the scientific method.


Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[1] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.


SOURCE: en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 4-9-2009 by Aggie Man]



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 


I just shared a story on the staff forum and I'll take a moment to share it here. Several times on ATS I have admitted a surprising opinion for a Christian: I don't believe religion should be in schools- not even my faith that I hold more precious than anything. The following story is why. My brother was once the minority in the battle of spirituality in schools and I saw how it made him feel. Being that my faith is so precious to me, I don't even want to risk having something else taught even if it means mine isn't taught either.

back in the 80's, my brother was in the first grade and I was 4 years old and not in school yet but what happened to him is why my parents never placed me in the public school system until High School.

They had a New Age program where the children would contact 'beings' that included spirits, aliens, undersea magical creatures, etc. One of the exercises was to lay down and listen to a tape that would place the children in the state between being awake and asleep. They would then be given suggestions, very similar to hypnotism, which one expert admitted what they were doing to the children basically was a form of hypnotism.

In other exercises, they would 'travel by mind' to alternate dimensions and talk to the beings in those realms or communicate with extraterrestrials. Sometimes they were placed into a trance-like state in order to do so.

One day my mother saw my brother trying to communicate with the beings from home. When she asked him what he was doing, he told her the children weren't allowed to tell the parents. She and other parents went on a crusade, including the news, to get the program pulled from schools. I believe New Mexico and Texas no longer have the program but I know some states up north do.

The reason I brought the above story up in the other thread was due to the fact my mother received flack from everyone, including my maternal grandmother who was a public school principal. My brother had to sit in the library while the issue was being weighed.

The reason I bring it up now is to stress the point it is OK for parents to be concerned, aware, wary, and involved. The second reason I share the above here and why I tie it into my beliefs to keep religion out of school is my reply to your assumption in the OP:


My guess is that people are just fine with indoctrination, as long as they agree with the subject.


If parents want to let their children partake in viewing Obama's speech: That's fine! If parents want their children to sit out until the parents can review the material and go over it with the children together: That's fine!

There is no point in getting up in a tizzy over the film just yet but there is also no reason to criticize the parents for being cautious, either.



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:53 PM
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reply to post by Aggie Man
 


I don't want to derail, but I was only trying to make the point that Darwinism or Evolution, taught outside any competing theory is often taken as a fact, even in older children and adults! Therefore, we should include the competing theories in the lesson plan.

You are correct though, I believe the school should stick to hard and true facts about math, science, history, and language, and leave religion to the churches!

Even in that we encounter problems! "History" is highly speculative, and is taught entirely different in Savannah, GA, compared to San Francisco, CA! Even more different from US to Europe to Russia to Japan!!

The US is notably behind in teaching World History and World Geography and World Literature!! I know honor students on academic scholarships that have never read Dostoevsky or Cervantes, or Kafka!



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by getreadyalready
 


I understand. And here's a star for your thoughts.



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 01:09 PM
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Good thread BH.

While I do believe in the right structure of teaching in our public schools, I DO NOT believe in any attempt to indoctrinate the children with a speech about serving our government. This is the only reason I am not happy with this. Our president and government should not be asking anyone to serve their government. The Gov't should be serving us! (Thats why we pay them taxdollars?!)

Now, if its about helping the community, emphasis on the helping, I can see the good issues behind it. If its about getting off the couch and getting outside to do productive things, I am also a fan.

This opinion is merely stated upon future examination of the speech, to see if the subjects underlaying the entire video are about serving the government as a summarization. Period.



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 03:30 PM
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Thanks for all the replies.
Some great points made!

I just want to let everyone know who doesn't know already, that the Obama speech is going to be available online on Monday for parents to see before their kids hear it.


Ashley, thank you for sharing your story. I think parents should be VERY cautious about what their children are learning when outside the protection of the home. I certainly am not criticizing parents for that. I do wonder, though, if the same parents who are so upset about Obama's speech know every special guest who comes in the classroom and talks to their kids... Do they care? Do they review every movie shown in the classroom before exposing their children to it?



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