Are we suffering from "quantum amnesia"?

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posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 02:16 AM
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(If this was published on ATS before, please remove it, with my apologies.)


A new study suggests the arrow of time is the result of quantum mechanical "amnesia" that erases any trace of such events.

The arrow of time: a result of "quantum amnesia"?

I find this fabulously interesting as a possible standpoint for a different viewing of "time" and its apparent anomalies.











[edit on 4-9-2009 by Vanitas]




posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 01:11 PM
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Great concept. Unfortunately the article doesn't deal with the magnitude of this very well. Seems to be written by someone who didn't really grasp the idea.

Life could be called the antithesis of the laws of thermodynamics and entropy. It introduces organization and complexity into a system that lacked it.

Constructive instead of destructive.

There are theoreticians just staring to grapple with how and why this happens. People like Rupert Shedrake have tried to demonstrate that field exist beyond an assembly of atoms and molecules. They determine more than just molecular arrangement. They may be a type of energy, a force, that we barely comprehend.

Of course this starts to move into the realm of mysticism and magic. But maybe they themselves are poorly understood by us the way things like physics, astronomy, genetics, disease, once were.

As for time, I see it as the way we quantify and separate what we observe. Someone once described it as a flashlight in the dark moving forward slowly. Everything is there all at once, past, present, future. But we can only focus on a tiny section of it, minute by minute.


Mike



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael

Great concept. Unfortunately the article doesn't deal with the magnitude of this very well. Seems to be written by someone who didn't really grasp the idea.



I know!
And myself, I have been "grasping" this on a intuitive level that comes before precise words in my case.
That's why I was hoping people would be interested in developing (verbally, if possible
) ideas about this concept.




Of course this starts to move into the realm of mysticism and magic. But maybe they themselves are poorly understood by us the way things like physics, astronomy, genetics, disease, once were.
As for time, I see it as the way we quantify and separate what we observe. Someone once described it as a flashlight in the dark moving forward slowly. Everything is there all at once, past, present, future. But we can only focus on a tiny section of it, minute by minute.


I couldn't have said it better myself.
Which is why I am glad I didn't.


Thanks for thinking about this, Mike.
I happen to believe - as does Sheldrake - that the mere act of developing coherent ideas is a potentially huge contribution in itself.




[edit on 4-9-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 06:30 PM
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Here is a link to the author's research:

A quantum solution to the arrow of time dilemma


And here is his bibliography:

Lorenzo Maccone























[edit on 4-9-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 06:40 PM
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And here is another article (from a blog) that deals with this:

Is Quantum Mechanics Selectively Erasing Our Memory?


(The comments are not as much help as one would hope, but they are better than nothing.)









[edit on 4-9-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 06:44 PM
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Thanks for the link.

Would like to see summaries to get a flavour.

Getting back to all this after 4 years of dogin art incorporating a lot of quantum level internalization.

Don't have the language to articulate properly but it involved going into a semi-trance state and making paint actually flow on a canvas creating tidal waves.

Results often fantastic.

Had my own gallery and the stuff was selling. People often commented on the fractal geometry formations.

Would say more but it might sound like self-promotion.


Mike



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 07:24 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael

Don't have the language to articulate properly but it involved going into a semi-trance state and making paint actually flow on a canvas creating tidal waves.



Not only do I understand (I believe) that you don't "have the language" - in my own experience, LANGUAGE is what gets in the way of actually "co-creating" with these forces we're talking about here. (And I am fully aware of how pompous this may sound to some. Still, it's the simplest way of articulating this particular truth.)

Which is probably why attempts at "co-creating" with the Universe - or even just modelling it - usually don't include words (unless they are seemingly incoherent), but rather physical procedures, such as the Huna thread knitting, to name just one example.

I don't think anyone would mind if you told more about your work.
I know I wouldn't.



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 08:47 PM
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Originally posted by Vanitas
Not only do I understand (I believe) that you don't "have the language" - in my own experience, LANGUAGE is what gets in the way of actually "co-creating" with these forces we're talking about here. (And I am fully aware of how pompous this may sound to some. Still, it's the simplest way of articulating this particular truth.)

Which is probably why attempts at "co-creating" with the Universe - or even just modelling it - usually don't include words (unless they are seemingly incoherent), but rather physical procedures, such as the Huna thread knitting, to name just one example.

I don't think anyone would mind if you told more about your work.
I know I wouldn't.


Send me a U2U and I'll give you a link to my website.

I'm a combination of shy and tongue-ties of late, when I want to talk about my works. It's so personal and so deep, it feels like trying to elaborate on your sexual feelings.

I'll just mention there is a certain 'magic' about actual original art that many understand but never try to explain. I've had series of paintings I did a while ago in storage. Though I have quality pictures of them, I was blown away when I was standing in front of them a couple days ago.

There is some kind of unquantified energy that certain configurations retain that hits you like a ton of bricks when you get within range.

I'm not romantic or even believe much in the notions of Fine Art. But a genuine artist can enters a state where he becomes an instrument of certain patterns and visual formations. It's an incredible high, akin to operating on some Platonic dimension of enhanced reality.

I'll cut short here, as I see the language and metaphor problem is starting to kick in.

Don't know of any of this resonates.

Mike



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 08:50 PM
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So...are we suffering from "quantum amnesia" or not? I really wanted to read a discussion...those sites don't help.



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 09:03 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


OK, I will.
(I just don't know when, though. I don't think I've checked my U2 in the past year, so the thought of the clean-up is a daunting one.
For reasons unrelated to ATS, I've developed an aversion to PM of any kind, that is growing into full-blown phobia.)

I believe I am very familiar with the level you're talking about.
And I particularly like the fact that you call it the "Platonic dimension of enhanced reality" and not with some other, new-agey expression, like "akasa", for example. It helps keep things conceptually clean and intelligible, in my opinion.



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by IDK88
 





Well, according to Maccone, we ARE.
And according to yours truly, this COULD explain a lot of "dimensional" anomalies - provided there is a loophole in Maccone's underlying assumption that we simply CANNOT observe the process he speculates about.

Be it as it may, this theory is still in its early stages (and for all we know, it may end up going nowhere).

But we can only have a proper discussion if other people chime in.












[edit on 4-9-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by Vanitas
 


I thought I read this thread thoroughly but could you either tell me what you mean by "dimensional" anomalies or point me to a list?



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 09:23 PM
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reply to post by IDK88
 


By "dimensional anomalies" (and I am glad you noticed the all-important quotation marks - punctuation is not something I use lightly
) I mean all sorts of time/space phenomena that are currently treated more or less as "paranormal", i.e. inexplicable inconsistencies in the apparent continuity of time and/or space (such as my beloved time slips - that's my blog, just so you know).

Such phenomena really do exist, they have been experienced by all sorts of people - and they can't be all dismissed as a consequence of somehow faulty perception.

But of course such things are only one of the many, MANY worms in the can that this theory might open.






[edit on 4-9-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:35 AM
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Just an afterthought:

Ever since I read about this theory, the notion of exformation keeps turning in my mind, without my calling for it.

Since both are directly relevant to what we call "consciousness", it's not really surprising. (After all, exformation is about REMOVING so-called information, in order to construct.)
Still, I thought I'd throw it into the public arena, so perhaps others can think about the possible links between the two while I am out partying.







[edit on 5-9-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 02:59 PM
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OK, since I seem to be one of the very few who find this subject interesting, I'll ask a question myself:

Considering the fact (IS it a fact?) that, according to the research presented by Tor Norretranders

a) we perceive about 12 million bits per second (of which 10 million by vision), but the processing speed of "consciousness" seems to be limited to 20 bits/second (resulting in a massive amount of information discarded for the benefit of... what, exactly? why exactly does the structure of consciousness we inhabit have to be so drastically "streamlined"?)

and

b) there seems to be a delay of half a second between perception/information input and conscious awareness of the input...

is this half a second where the "quantum amnesia" - supposing it really exists - takes place?


(BTW, it seems to me that this half a second delay corresponds in all but in name to the great "discovery" of last year, discussed here. Considering that Norretranders wrote about it in 1991, I am slightly befuddled...)



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 07:39 PM
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Just adding a relevant article, to further the, ahem, discussion (if and when it starts
).

Coming loose in time

It's from Whitley Strieber's website, and it mentions Lorenzo Maccone' theory (which is the subject of this thread).

Enjoy.



posted on Oct, 2 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences.

Explanation: 1stly you state and I quote "Great concept. Unfortunately the article doesn't deal with the magnitude of this very well. Seems to be written by someone who didn't really grasp the idea."

And I'll leave that statement for a moment and I'll get back to it...

2ndly you state "Life could be called the antithesis of the laws of thermodynamics and entropy. It introduces organization and complexity into a system that lacked it."

This is promoting ignorance and here is why......

From PHYSICS 5th edition GIANCOLI

Chptr 15 The Law of Thermodynamics
Sub Chptr 10 Evolution and growth;"Time's Arrow".

An interesting example of the increase in entropy relates to biological evolution and to growth of organisms. Clearly, a human being is a highly ordered organism. The process of evolution from the early macromolecules and simple forms of life to Homo sapiens is a process of increasing order. So, too, the development of an individual from a single cell to fully grown person is a pocess of increasing order. Do these processes violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics? No, they do not. In the process of evolution and growth, and even during the mature life of an individual, waste products are eliminated. These small molecules that remain as a result of metabolism are simple molecules without much order. Thus they represent relatively high disorder or entropy. Indeed, the total entropy of the molecules cast aside by organisms during the process of evolution and growth is greater than the decrease in entropy associated with the order of the growing individual or evolving species.

Another aspect of the 2nd law of thermodynamics is that it tells us in which direction processes go. If you were to see a film being run backwards, you would undoubtedly be able to tell that it was run backwards. for you would see odd occurrences, such as a broken coffe cuprising from the floor and reassembling on the table , or a torn ballon suddenly becoming whole and filled with air. We know these things don't happen in real life; they are processes in which order increases -- or entropy decreases. They violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. When watching a movie [or imagining that time could go backwards], we are tipped off to a reversal of time by observing whether entropy is increasing or decreaseing. Hence entropy has been called time's arrow, for it can tell us in which direction time is going.

[Note the above was typed out manually by me from the actual book.]

Personal Disclosure: Now, getting back to your 1st comment is recommend that if you are going to invoke any law of thermodynamics/entropy then you had better know what state the entire system is in before you start wielding rules around that are specially caveated [i.e the 2nd law] by whether the system is open, closed or isolated. Planet Earth and the life [order] on it are not in thermodynamic/entropic equillibrium because the system is neither closed or isolated. WHY? Because we have a sun the supplies all the energy needs of the planet requires to be in a state of local over unity which allows for internal states of increased entropy [i.e life etc] and the work to do this local increase of entropy is paid for as waste products with a high level of disorder [see info supplied above!].
Seem's to me that your post didn't deal with the magnitude of this very well and seems to be written by somebody who hasn't really grasped the concept of thermodynamics! Care to refute?

P.S. As for the QM concept of observer effect and how that may kybosh our ability to detect/sense and therefor test for breaks in the 2nd law of thermodynamics is a waste of time as it can only be tested for using hardcore equipment etc. where as stated above we can already do this by watching for entropic increase that violates the 2nd law. We do it all the time naturally and the long term statistical analysis of broad enviromental states and observers constantly reinforces the current kuhnian paradigm that we both recently and currently don't seem to be able to "get something for nothing!" [existence is itself excluded or both you and I will have to explain the big bang isolated by the context and constraints of the 2nd law...very tricky huh!].


Edited for spelling etc.
Edited again for spelling. :shk: me a

[edit on 2-10-2009 by OmegaLogos]

[edit on 2-10-2009 by OmegaLogos]



posted on Oct, 3 2009 @ 04:11 AM
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reply to post by OmegaLogos
 



Admittedly being sleepless for more than 30 hours, as I am right now, dramatically increases the entropy of coherent thought and/or expression
- but aren't the laws of thermodynamics (and all other laws in science as is known to man) in the final analysis just extrapolations based on (perhaps incompletely) observed phenomena, thus bound to be as limited as our perception and/or comprehension of what is being observed?

That's what I gather from Maccone's theory (but maybe I don't understand it, not completely). According to him, entropy could be a perfectly reversible state - only we don't register it.

In order to keep this as simple as possible (so that it could be understood by as many people as possible - notably yours truly
), I'll quote a few excerpts from Strieber's article (see my previous post).




There is, in physics, nothing fundamental that says that time should only move forward. [...] A recently published study [Maccone's] suggests a reason for this: the illusion that time is moving only in one direction is caused by amnesia induced by a quantum-mechanical process that erases all traces of temporal anomalies, such as time moving backwards, or shifts across timelines.

Lorenzo Maccone of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology suggests that the entropic nature of movement through time may be an illusion. He told the New Scientist, "if you analyze (the laws of quantum dynamics) carefully, you'll see that all the processes where things run backward can happen, but they don't leave any trace of having happened."

Or do they? Scientists would never believe that the mind can detect these anomalies, but I think that it not only can, but that it is in the process of rapid change.



So there you have it, in a nutshell.
Maybe now people will find it easier to participate in a discussion about this absolutely novel (as far as I can tell) theory.


BTW, Strieber's article raises an additional - very important! - question about the scale of such processes. But I think I'll be starting a new thread about that - again, in order to keep the debate as simple and intelligible - and fruitful - as possible.


And totally off-topic...


Edited again for spelling. :shk: me a


Ha - you have nothing on me! Not only do I edit, re-edit and then edit some more - I then actually go back and edit the "edit" tags, because God forbid there should be more than one "edit" line showing at the bottom of my post!

(It's not to conceal the number of edits: I do it purely for aesthetical reasons.)











[edit on 3-10-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Oct, 7 2009 @ 01:34 AM
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This thread makes my brain hurt.

I don't understand thermal dynamics and all these laws and what not to the degree that you guys seem to, but according to quantum physics, with virtual states and real states of particles and the idea of many worlds, and a little bit of Nassim Haramein's ideas, this all fits together pretty easily and all the new stuff just seems to fit together scientifically, if only you let God mingle with consciousness.

I wish I had the time and linguistic abilities to have more in depth conversations on here


Great post. Star and flag.



posted on Oct, 8 2009 @ 12:14 AM
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When we observe something we change it. This is related to the Uncertainty Principle.
en.wikipedia.org...
So, lets suppose 2 atoms collide atom a and b. Atom a has an equal chance of going either way. Who decides what way it will go. Some physicist says both. This is the basic premise behind the multiverse theory.

What the research seems to be saying is that there is a stronger possibility of this being true. How? Suppose there are events with some kind of probability which go from a->b->c but there is another probability which says a->d->f. Now you are in a->b->c time frame but a->d also happened but some how since you are not in that frame you do not remember if even if you 'see' it.


[edit on 8-10-2009 by rul987]

[edit on 8-10-2009 by rul987]





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