Do you have questions about the Bible?

reply to post by Melissa101


After thinking about your second question I believe that we must have faith that God would not allow his word to be perverted. I am not sure without looking it up who made the decision on earth as to what made the cut or not. I am not nieve enough to think that for political reasons or in the best interest in certain Churches that books may have been omitted but you nor me know for a fact what if any they were. I believe that the Bible taht have today gives us enough information to know what we need to know and I am sure God has all that under his controll.

[edit spelling]

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


No problem I am not offended in the least. Yes I started the thread to help others understand and not to argue. Thanks!

reply to post by Melissa101


So you are saying that the bible is the word of god?

What does Jesus mean by this then?

Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Originally posted by Melissa101
We pay for our sins on earth because we suffer the natural consequences of breaking any of the laws that are set forth by God. Also man is much less forgiving than God thus man imposes punishment too.

Jesus paid for all of the sins that can be commited by humans that if they believe him they may have everlasting life. Like a pardon from a death sentance. If you choose not to believe then you are not excepting the pardon and that is up to you there is enough to go around people just choose Satan intsead.

Why is anyone paying for them if it's already been paid for?

In your first paragraph, you start out by saying that we pay for our sins, then you say Jesus pays for them. Sounds like I'm being double billed. Is this some kind of co-pay program?

Does this mean that god doesn't care that I already suffered natural consequences, that because I didn't "believe in Jesus", I'm going to pay for them anyway.

So, we can take 2 men. Each man lives in a manner which is exactly similar. They have committed and paid for their sins on the same basis. Now, god is going to ask them both - did you accept Jesus. And if 1 says yes, he is ok. But the other guy says no, and so now he is going to spend eternity in hell? Over that 1 thing?

Or hey, how about the guy that lives a good life. Rarely if ever sins, is just a good hearted person. Another guy lives a bad life, but accepts Jesus. So the person who lived a good life gets to spend eternity in hell, while the other guy is forgiven for all those bad things and goes to heaven.

Is that what you are saying?

It's not "Satan" that is killing Christianity, it's stuff like this. There is no way I can ever believe things like this are of the divine. You make the father out to be worse than even someone like Saddam. This is exactly what someone like Saddam would do. Oh, you killed and raped 4 women - well who do you accept Saddam or USA. Guy says Saddam - ok, you are forgiven. Next guy doesn't really do anything, says USA - and it's "Off with his head".

Cake or death?

But 2 more questions.

What does this verse mean?

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

And what if - it's not that I don't believe Jesus. What if - it's just that I think Christianity is a lie and don't believe them?

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Melissa101

 

So you are saying that the bible is the word of god?

What does Jesus mean by this then?

Matthew 7

28And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

29For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

The word "scribes" here does not refer to those who wrote down Scripture in the sense that they had been inspired by God to do so. They may have transcribed or copied Scripture. In short they were much like the pharisees in that they were interpreters of the Law......lawyers in a nutshell.

So Jesus, being God in the flesh, spoke, taught and revealed to those hearing Him in a different way than they were used to by the scribes, sadducees and pharisees.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


By who's definition?

Scribe

To become a scribe requires rigorous study and training-and great skill. Certainly, a person who has not carefully studied the laws pertaining to composing a Torah scroll cannot be a scribe. Above all, however, the scribe must be a G-d-fearing and pious person, dedicated to the sanctity of the Torah scroll.

The scribe may not rely on his memory, but must copy the letters, word by word, from a kosher Torah scroll or a copy of a certified Kosher scroll. A right-handed scribe writes only with his right hand; a left-handed scribe, only with his left hand.

Originally posted by badmedia

So, we can take 2 men. Each man lives in a manner which is exactly similar. They have committed and paid for their sins on the same basis. Now, god is going to ask them both - did you accept Jesus. And if 1 says yes, he is ok. But the other guy says no, and so now he is going to spend eternity in hell? Over that 1 thing?

Or hey, how about the guy that lives a good life. Rarely if ever sins, is just a good hearted person. Another guy lives a bad life, but accepts Jesus. So the person who lived a good life gets to spend eternity in hell, while the other guy is forgiven for all those bad things and goes to heaven.

You're arguing based on human, finite knowledge. *IF* the God that is revealed to us within Scripture is real then He would be Holy, Righteous, Eternal and Sovereign (just a few of His attributes). Being that He is Eternal so then are His decrees, His Love but also His Judgment and Wrath, meaning that all those who are saved shall know of His Love and Grace for all eternity. Those who are not saved shall know of His Judgment and Wrath for all eternity.

You see sin or bad things as a human thing in that I have been wronged and I am hurt by it but perhaps through time or perhaps through that person going to jail I will deal with it. Now again, *IF* God is real then that sin would be against God who is Eternal. That sin resonates differently with God. Also keep in mind that God is able to forgive while you and I find it very difficult or we just flat out won't forgive someone who has wronged us. If someone sought to hurt or did hurt my child I would seek to kill them. Why? Because I am a flawed human and I want justice immediately. Praise God that He does not seek that same or I would of been dead long ago. So God is then also Gracious and Long Suffering and slow to anger.

Now you use the word "good" but just what exactly is "good"? Who is really "good"? There must be a benchmark for "good" or else it can be totally subjective when applying it as a criteria in regards to people and say, heaven. For example not many people would consider what Hitler did as "good" but Hitler saw that what he was doing was "good". Who are we then to say that he was wrong or not good if "good" as an attribute has no benchmark but becomes subjective?

"Hey my friend is a former insurance agent and he is going to show me how to claim that tree I backed into as a hit and run, that's GOOD right?" Well if the person you're saying that to has any intelligence they would reply, "No, that's not GOOD because people like me, who are honest about their mistakes, have to end up paying for your lie in higher premiums"

So to one person it's good but to another it's not good. This is a subjective area but if we seek to label people as "good" we then have to ask, "Well, compared to whom?" Maybe it's Oprah. She does a lot of good but if "goodness" was a ticket to heaven then what if your GOODNESS did not measure up to Oprah? What if she set the standard and your good deeds fell short? Would that be fair?

Salvation then is by Gods Grace because *IF* He is real then His is the Righteous Judge. No one will be separated from God by mistake or some heavenly clerical goof.

Lastly, think of it like this. If you had the ability to allow people into heaven who would you allow in?

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

By who's definition?

Scribe

To become a scribe requires rigorous study and training-and great skill. Certainly, a person who has not carefully studied the laws pertaining to composing a Torah scroll cannot be a scribe. Above all, however, the scribe must be a G-d-fearing and pious person, dedicated to the sanctity of the Torah scroll.

The scribe may not rely on his memory, but must copy the letters, word by word, from a kosher Torah scroll or a copy of a certified Kosher scroll. A right-handed scribe writes only with his right hand; a left-handed scribe, only with his left hand.

Again, the scribes within the 4 gospels did NOT author or pen any of the Scriptures. Why? Because there is about a 500 year gap from what is known as the Old Testament to the New Testament.

The scribes that Jesus contended with were transcribers, writers of legal documents and copiers of already written or copied Scriptures. The scribes, pharisees and sadducees all contended against Jesus because He rebuked them and their authority over the people. God did not institute any of these groups but in many places the people placed them in charge.

They did not write the laws they only interpreted the already written and accepted Scriptures.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


The verse didn't just say "these current day scribes", and it's not even implied. Why not? Because in the same verse it describes what is the authority, and it is the people, not anything which is written.

Sorry, but my thinking is not so literal. I do not look at names, I look at functions. And how are those functions different from the years before, or the people who are telling me how I am to interpret the words of Jesus and so forth?

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

The verse didn't just say "these current day scribes", and it's not even implied. Why not? Because in the same verse it describes what is the authority, and it is the people, not anything which is written.

Sorry, but my thinking is not so literal. I do not look at names, I look at functions. And how are those functions different from the years before, or the people who are telling me how I am to interpret the words of Jesus and so forth?

It doesn't make sense to you because you're imposing a meaning onto the word "scribe" that does not fit the context. Here is the passage in a broader context.

Matthew 7:

24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

25 "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

27 "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

28 When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;

29 for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.


No where are the "people" associated with "authority". If anything the last passage ascribes to Jesus an authority that even the scribes of the people did not have. It states that the people were "amazed at His teaching". Scribes were not so much known as teachers but again transcribers, copiers of an already written Torah.

None of the "scribes" in the hearing of Jesus authored any of the Scriptures because, again, they were already written down. We know this because Jesus had prior many times said, "It is written....."

So you can continue on in your misreading of the context but it will not make your argument any more valid.

My apologies to Melissa for the rabbit trail on her thread.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


Actually, the people are the authority because the father is within.

No where are the "people" associated with "authority"

The verse says: For he taught THEM as one with authority, and not AS the scribes. Meaning, not as the scribes had taught them. Scribes are the ones who knew the scripture word for word and so forth, and the scribes had been teaching other things were the authority.

So, in the previous verse, he said the people were astonished. So obviously when it says "he taught them", it is referring to the people.

Sorry, but I'm not the one distorting things here. How am I to believe you can answer such questions if you can't even stick to your own source?




[edit on 9/6/2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

Actually, the people are the authority because the father is within.

No where are the "people" associated with "authority"

The verse says: For he taught THEM as one with authority, and not AS the scribes. Meaning, not as the scribes had taught them. Scribes are the ones who knew the scripture word for word and so forth, and the scribes had been teaching other things were the authority.

So, in the previous verse, he said the people were astonished. So obviously when it says "he taught them", it is referring to the people.

Sorry, but I'm not the one distorting things here. How am I to believe you can answer such questions if you can't even stick to your own source?





[edit on 9/6/2009 by badmedia]


OK, your statement about the father being within explains a lot to me now. So I will only state that in the passage in question, if read with proper exegesis, the people are not the ones with authority but rather Jesus, The scribes in Jesus hearing had nothing to do with authoring the Torah. To say otherwise shows a lack of contextual understanding.

I hope Melissa can get her thread back on topic.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


The verse is saying Jesus taught them differently than the scribes. Jesus taught people that the father is within, that the holy spirit will give understanding(in line with the Torah) and so forth.

But the scribes taught the people differently. They were not taught the proper understanding, which is the entire reason why Jesus did what he did. This is why Jesus says of the Pharisees - you do not enter and you do not allow others to enter.

Proof of this can be found in John 10, when they wish to stone Jesus for saying he is the son of god. When Psalms 82 and other places say that all are. They did not at all understand that the father was within or anything about it - within, thus do not enter?

And so he was teaching and giving people understanding on how to find the father within, and when you find the father within and you can hear him, then he will give you understanding needed to follow the commandments properly. Because the father is within, the people themselves are the real authority, and they don't need the scribes to teach them.

As such, the issue has nothing to do with who wrote the Torah at all. It had to do with the manner in which they taught it.

And it's no different than the church doctrine you are spewing out. Same exact thing.

How is it OT? Because I'm asking hard questions? Because I don't just up and agree with the responses? Accept what is said, or get out? What a crock.

reply to post by badmedia


You have to understand the Trinity to grasp this, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one. This is something you will have to look up and learn on your own I cannot teach it to you and if anyone ever tells you they understand it perfectly then run because we are not capable in our human state to understand this fully and completely.

reply to post by badmedia


So, we can take 2 men. Each man lives in a manner which is exactly similar. They have committed and paid for their sins on the same basis. Now, god is going to ask them both - did you accept Jesus. And if 1 says yes, he is ok. But the other guy says no, and so now he is going to spend eternity in hell? Over that 1 thing?

YEP that is how it works, weather you like it or not according to the Bible this is how it is. You have to keep in mind that when you become a Christain you have to believe in Jesus admit Jesus died for your sins, you have to repent for your sins and turn from past sin. This does not mean you can never sin again (that is impossible) but you try not to sin and you believe that Christ died for your sins. We get a pardon from hell not a pardon from natural consequences of breaking the laws.

reply to post by badmedia


What does this verse mean?

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

And what if - it's not that I don't believe Jesus. What if - it's just that I think Christianity is a lie and don't believe them?

Jesus is saying if you do not love him you will deny (not believe) the word Jesus is also saying that the words are God's not his.

I too do not believe in much of the things main stream "Christianity" teaches. Remember the Bible says that many will come in sheeps clothing trying to decieve the masses with false "Christianity" What better way to decieve people than by twisting the truth into something perverxe and confusing. I believe satan sits on the front row of most churches every time the doors are open. The Bible says nothing about not believing in main stream Christianity it simply says to believe in God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and God's word (the Bible). You have to go what is in the Biblle not what some Joe Preacher is telling you.

Originally posted by Melissa101
You have to understand the Trinity to grasp this, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one. This is something you will have to look up and learn on your own I cannot teach it to you and if anyone ever tells you they understand it perfectly then run because we are not capable in our human state to understand this fully and completely.

I know the father. Understanding is how the father gives. No man is able to give understanding to another. All any man can do is express that understanding.

All are children of god, not just Jesus. I am a son of god, and Jesus would be my brother.

There is nothing to "look up". You are only talking about the understanding of men. You are only giving me church doctrine. There is but 1 true teacher, and but 1 true master and it's not inside a book. You can look it up 1000 times and the book is never going to bring you understanding. You already said yourself in this thread that you operate solely off belief and faith.

Psalm 82

1God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

8Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

If you would like, I can explain the father/son relationship. I am allowed to understand anything I want all I have to do is ask, and I'm given what I need when I need it - even when I don't exactly want what I need.

But I am not the teacher, and I am not your authority and the only way to really understand is by the father. He is not just a book.

Proverbs 8

6Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.

7For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

...(saving space, entire chapter applies - highly recommend reading it all)...

14Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.

........

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

See, it's talking about finding the father and how he gives understanding. You are the son/daughter. The giving of that understanding and wisdom is the holy spirit, and it is followed by finding the father.

This experience is explained in John 14. In John 14:20 it says on that day you will know. A specific time when you know - not believe, not have faith, when you 100% know. And then that is followed by the holy spirit, in verse 26.

Actual thing that happens, actual understanding that comes. Not faith, not church doctrine, and not belief.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Understanding, not faith or belief.

reply to post by badmedia


I understand the relationship I just cannot explain it. I agree that Jesus and God are not just a book, but the Bible was given to us by God and Jesus to read and understand. Yes when you believe and ask you recieve the Holy Spirit and everything in the Bible makes since when before it did not. I never stated that I operate soley on Faith but I suppose I do and with that Faith I am able to understand. I enjoy ypur questions because I like to be challebged and I learn from others as well however you seem very determined to cause an argument, Why? What are you trying to prove, that if you upset a believer then you have accomplished something and you can turn and say see that how believers are they are liers and do not know the truth. Is this your goal? I am just interented in understanding the psycology behind your displaced anger. So do not take offence.

reply to post by Melissa101


You think so huh? What does it mean to believe in Jesus? Just about the label? Just about giving lip service as you just said it does? No.

In Matthew 7 it addresses people that say these kinds of things(among many other places). Giving lip service matters not.

Matthew 7

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What does it mean to believe in Jesus?

John 14

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

...

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

What does one need to keep the commandments?

Psalm 111

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

Why does Jesus speak in Parables? To give understanding.

Thus, the man who best kept the commandments is the man who actually believes in and loves Jesus. Not the man who only gives lip service, but then does things contrary to the will of the father.

Originally posted by Melissa101
reply to post by badmedia

 

I too do not believe in much of the things main stream "Christianity" teaches. Remember the Bible says that many will come in sheeps clothing trying to decieve the masses with false "Christianity" What better way to decieve people than by twisting the truth into something perverxe and confusing. I believe satan sits on the front row of most churches every time the doors are open. The Bible says nothing about not believing in main stream Christianity it simply says to believe in God, Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and God's word (the Bible). You have to go what is in the Biblle not what some Joe Preacher is telling you.

But you still carry the doctrine, so what is the difference? You are teaching the same exact doctrine I can hear in a church, so what is the difference?

Christianity is the anti-Christ religion. The version and doctrine you speak of was decided by politicians, applied with political power. They would kill anyone who didn't go along with this version of things. Not only did they kill them, they burned them alive in public for everyone to see what happened to those who didn't go along with it.

Sure, you can say you don't believe in mainstream Christianity, but if you function in the same manner you might as well be IMO.