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Defence Secretary Aide Quits Over Afghanistan

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posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:05 PM
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reply to post by nenothtu
 
Here we go again, eh?

American troops are still there because we hate to leave a job unfinished. Pretty simple, really. We were there to begin with because we prefer to carry the fight to the enemy...
Is that right? WW2: USA drops nukes on Japan, despite their willingness to surrender, to demonstrate their power to Russia. USA has the army in place, control of Arab oil & a booming oil industry & manufacturing base @home. All the advantages, yet does not attack the communist enemy it is even more opposed to than fascism (Was the USA ever anti-fascist? Recent events make me wonder!), not even conquering all of Germany.
Korean War: oh well, we cant win so we'll have a DMZ & partition the country.
Viet Nam: same thing, it just didn't work out so well.
Bay of Pigs: oh well, that wasn't an official war [insert more excuses here].
Gulf War 1: USA destroys the Iraqi army & foments rebellion within Iraq, then leaves letting the rebels, who may have been able to form some kind of democracy, get captured, tortured & killed, if they weren't able to flee by their own devices, thus further entrenching Baath Party dominance.
In fact, that the USA has been prepared to spend billions in fighting 2 long protracted conflicts @once is unique in their history, which begs the question, why? Its worth noting that they are trying to find some face-saving way out of Iraq too. Not surprising since there's no UN appetite to share any of the cost.
Consider tho, if the USA soon declares their puppet Iraqi govt fit to take over their own security, what will happen? Whether true or not, any sectarian violence between Sunni & Shiite will be blamed on Iran. Maybe Iran would be stupid enough to invade part of Iraq in support of the Shiites. Imagine how vindicated the USA would look! Still, the USA could not afford a conventional invasion of Iran, so it would be another coalition or nukes.
(Cont below)




posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:39 PM
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(Cont from above)
So why does the USA hate Iran so much? For the same reason they hated Iraq, for selling oil in €uros. Doing so has the effect of devaluing the US$ & raising the € price. This seriously affects the US domestic economy because a great deal of it relies on imports. There is a major problem however with the US desire to send Iran the way of Iraq. Irans biggest oil customer is China & the emerging industrialisation in China desperately needs that oil. Still, if most of the world were against Iran for real or propagandised support of Iraqi Shiite "terrorists/freedom fighters" (pick a side & apply label accordingly) & ready for military action, then 1 thing the Chinese might consider is militarily supporting Iran.
Major problem there tho: the main strength of the Peoples Liberation Army is in its ground forces, but how to get them to Iran? Oh, thats easy, there's only 1 sparsely populated country between them... er yes - Afghanistan.
Ah, now it all makes sense...
Seriously people, forget terrorism, forget freedom & democracy, forget christian vs muslim: follow the money.
Remember France? Totally opposed to the invasion of Iraq, because the falling US$ & rising €uro was in their best interests. Now tho, they are on the Iran-bashing bandwaggon. Eh? Doesn't make sense! Ah, but now the economy is teetering on the edge of a precipice. If the US$ drops too much now, the whole world economy will need to be restructured. The USA have most to lose, the BRIC nations the most to gain, but a slow decline of the US$ as world reserve leaves the €uro Zone with the most to gain, as the € gains parity with & maybe overtakes the US$ as prefered reserve currency.
Follow the money, not the propaganda!



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 05:11 PM
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Originally posted by stumason reply to post by SLAYER69
 
Indeed, on all counts.. The Baghdad diversion was an expensive detour for the British. Men, money and material that would have been better used in Afghanistan was wasted on the Iraq folly.
Except that it wasn't a "detour", but part of the same geo-political strategy. The Project for the New American Century call that strategy "Full Spectrum Dominance".
It hinges on all oil, as much gas as possible & indeed as much world trade of any kind being conducted in US$. This will allow the Fed to keep issuing US$s to be spent abroad without fear of the inflation @home that such a policy would ordinarily cause. Its basically a way for the USA to get free stuff by paying with money that they dont have to take back for goods or services later. Of course, a major benefit of this is the amount of military spending that the Federal Govt can afford as a result, because the military can be used to bully other countries into toeing the line... Or get hammered like Iraq.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by Bunken Drum
 

With all the falsehoods, misspoken assertions, erroneous "facts," and complete lack of logic,

did you have a point?



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by oozyism
 


I disagree that we have messed up in Afghanistan or that the country is in a worse state than before 2001. Afghanistan was in a complete mess before we sent any troops there - there's been a civil war going on since the Saur Revolution in 1978. Now at least there is a semblance of law an order, at least in the majority of the country.

Afghanistan has turned to one of the most corrupt countries in the world, when there is corruption law and order doesn't exist. If you don't understand that then don't hesitate to do some research.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 09:04 PM
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reply to post by dooper
 
If you want a debate dooper, challenge my assertions &, if you can, demonstrate them to be false. Otherwise I refer you to your own earlier post & suggest you **** in your own hat.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 09:09 PM
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There is no war to be won.

There is no exit strategy.

There is only an occupying force trying to take back the heroin trade.

The US doesn't like it when brown people take back land that once belonged to them, especially when it's the center of their criminal endeavors.

"May God deliver us from the venom of the Cobra, teeth of the tiger, and the vengeance of the Afghan."

No standing army in history has conquered Afghanistan. Those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 09:27 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69


At least I have a pair.

As far as the Taliban doing just fine?
Prove it. I mean show me the data that these foreigners to Afghan were doing just that. Preventing females from educations. Honor killings. Blowing up ancient monuments becuase it didn't fit in with their twisted view of Islam. I'd love to see the proof of this utopia we destroyed.

ohhh what a come back


Well the Taliban is doing just fine, let me prove it lol

Here you go:

The West is indirectly funding the insurgency in Afghanistan thanks to a system of payoffs to Taleban commanders who charge protection money to allow convoys of military supplies to reach Nato bases in the south of the country.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

They are doing so fine that you guys are paying tax for them to let your military convoys to pass without a harm. Ohhh I wonder if this will change anything, ofcurse not in your mind.

Here is more just for you, you are soo cute:

From NBC's Courtney Kube and Jim Miklaszewski
August has been the deadliest month for the U.S. military in the entire Afghanistan war.

As of this afternoon, 51 American servicemembers have been killed in Afghanistan this month. That breaks the previous record set only last month when 45 Americans were killed in July.

Ohh they seem to be doing just fine, they are still fighting, they are still governing much of the country, and the occupiers are hiding inside their well protected bases backed by jets, helicopter, missiles etc etc. Reminds me of the Soviets


So Afghanistan is in a better condition because females can recieve education, wow amazing, let me give you one more just to set your brain free, clean it off:

Malalai Joya, a young woman MP who criticised warlords, was suspended from parliament and now lives in hiding, protected by five gunmen. Last November she shocked a London audience by declaring that the situation for women in Afghanistan is now worse than it was under the Taliban...

The Sunday Times
April 26, 2009

Wait wait there is more:

According to Dr Soraya Sobhrang, director of women’s rights for the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, 60% of marriages are forced, and while 40% of children in the first year of school are girls, by secondary school this drops to only 11%. By the age of 15, less than 4% are girls.

The Sunday Times
April 26, 2009
4% wow, so much better. You don't seem to realize the culture and religion of Afghans, you seem to think they want what you want. That is not the case my friend. See Not everyone wants to live the American fantasy life, some people have different way of life.

Wait since I like you I will give you another one, this one will be like a pinch to wake you up from your dream:


A local commander and his 11 men are alleged to have gang-raped a 22-year-old woman in Shahre Buzurg district of the northeastern Badakhshan province of Afghanistan on November 28.

The crime was reported to have been committed in the Shah Dasht village by a local warlord called Mujtaba who belongs to Jamiat-e-Islami Afghanistan led by Burhanuddin Rabbani (now member of the parliament).

en.wikinews.org...
This is not an isolated case, crime, rape, murder, corruption is on the rise in Afghanistan, none which existed under Taliban. These warlords are given amnesty due to the fact that they support an American puppet, they can basically do what ever they want.

And by the way Afghanistan is mostly ruled by warlords, or Taliban. American's as I said are hiding behind their bases:

Like most of them, he is accused of widespread human rights abuses, including the massacre of up to 2,000 Taleban who suffocated in cargo containers in late 2001. He is also alleged to have crushed one of his own soldiers to death by tying him to the tracks of a tank. Yet he is now one of several warlords with whom Mr Karzai has forged alliances before Thursday’s election.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

This is Dostum we are talking about, all these warlords have control of Afghanistan, not the central government, not the occupiers etc etc.


[edit on 5-9-2009 by oozyism]



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 10:05 PM
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reply to post by Bunken Drum
 


One thing about your posts to find an error, you don't have to go very far.

The very first assertion.

Japan was TRYING to surrender and we dropped the nuke? If they were trying so hard, why in hell did we have to drop the second?

By the way, all written history, all behavior patterns, and all the horrors that was militant Japan indicates otherwise.

They were told from the beginning. Unconditional surrender.

Anything less wasn't trying.

And that's just your FIRST sentence.

I don't mind ignorance too much, especially from an aborigine or primitive, isolated society.

But for someone to repeat THAT stupidity - well - revisionist falsehoods are well and repeated.

There's no way for you to **** in your hat, being full of it already.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 



www.timesonline.co.uk...
December 12, 2008

Do you have anything a little bit older?

That was last years news



As for this one here. I never said they were. Your point?
Afghan warlord General Dostum returns to boost Karzai’s campaign



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 12:05 AM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by oozyism
 



www.timesonline.co.uk...
December 12, 2008

Do you have anything a little bit older?

That was last years news



As for this one here. I never said they were. Your point?
Afghan warlord General Dostum returns to boost Karzai’s campaign

OMG is this how you win debates

Seriously I'm speechless. 2008 is old, that was last year and how long has the war been? And this year has been the deadliest year for all the occupiers, yeah old news ^^

See this is how you change the subject, read what I posted again, you haven't responded to anything which truly shows how arrogant, not ignorant you are.

You have no idea how embarrassing this is lol



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


Honestly I'm not interested in debating you.
Frankly I could care less.

I'm sorry you're embarrassed. I'm not.



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Why are you here? Is that a fair question?
Don't tell me it is to waste people's time.

Ohhh wait wait don't answer that, you are here to socialize. Makes sense. It is like talking to one of them blond chiks.

[edit on 6-9-2009 by oozyism]



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 



OK lets try this....


Originally posted by oozyism
read what I posted again,


Read the whole thread. In it you'll find my stance and opinion.
I don't feel like starting a new debate when somebody just jumps in and starts swinging and who does not take the time to read the whole thread.

You don't know how embarrassing THAT IS!



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 12:28 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Don't worry everyone who can't back up their claims use the same trick, you are not the first Slayer. If you didn't want to discuss anything you shouldn't have replied in the first place and ask for evidence


When evidence comes you run, it is as simple as that, you can't handle the truth, similar to many others around ATS.



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism


When evidence comes you run, it is as simple as that, you can't handle the truth, similar to many others around ATS.


I'm still here...

It's just that you haven't shown any real evidence just some links to editorials of peoples opinions. Not really facts. Reread your post in question.

More propaganda by some liberal press.
Same old story it's a matter of opinion.


For example you try to use this cultural issue as a sign of failure.
Now how is this evidence of a failure?


According to Dr Soraya Sobhrang, director of women’s rights for the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, 60% of marriages are forced, and while 40% of children in the first year of school are girls, by secondary school this drops to only 11%. By the age of 15, less than 4% are girls.


[edit on 6-9-2009 by SLAYER69]



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 12:56 AM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69

I'm still here...

It's just that you haven't shown any real evidence just some links to editorials of peoples opinions. Not really facts. Reread your post in question.

More propaganda by some liberal press.
Same old story it's a matter of opinion.


For example you try to use this cultural issue as a sign of failure.
Now how is this evidence of a failure?


According to Dr Soraya Sobhrang, director of women’s rights for the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, 60% of marriages are forced, and while 40% of children in the first year of school are girls, by secondary school this drops to only 11%. By the age of 15, less than 4% are girls.


[edit on 6-9-2009 by SLAYER69]


Same tactics...
Nothing new, sorry to burst your bubble.

Read the statistics in that quote, those are not opinions. Now you are saying it is a cultural issue, hey that is what I'm saying. Now we agree?



Preventing females from educations.

A cultural issue? That is your comment. Do you get it?



Honor killings

A cultural issue? See now you are saying what I'm saying, we are in the same page. Let's continue.




Not really facts.

Which part of my sources is not facts, I would love to know.

Is it an opinion that this year was the deadliest year for the occupiers? Is it an opinion that you guys payed tax to Taliban? Is the statistics opinion? Is the fact that Afghanistan is ruled by warlords and opinion? Is the fact that Afghanistan has become one of the most corrupt nations on earth an opinion? See you can deny it, but then you have the burden of proof behind your back.

Your turn to bring evidence to back your points. Which you still haven't done and I assume you won't



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 01:38 AM
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Sorry I had to pay bills online in real life.

FAIL

Originally posted by oozyism
Your turn to bring evidence to back your points. Which you still haven't done and I assume you won't


When most people here at ATS debate we usually give the other person a chance to respond. Since you obviously have your panties in a bunch. Lets proceed shall we?

FAIL

Originally posted by oozyism
Well the Taliban is doing just fine, let me prove it lol

Taliban massacre of Hazaras

This report documents two massacres committed by Taliban forces in the central highlands of Afghanistan, in January 2001 and May 2000. In both cases the victims were primarily Hazaras, a Shia Muslim ethnic group that has been the target of previous massacres and other serious human rights violations by Taliban forces. These massacres took place in the context of the six-year war between the Taliban and parties now grouped in the United National Islamic

Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan (the "United Front"), in which international human rights and humanitarian law have been repeatedly violated by the warring factions. Ethnic and religious minorities, and the Hazaras in particular, have been especially vulnerable in areas of conflict, and Taliban forces have committed large-scale abuses against Hazara civilians with impunity. In this report Human Rights Watch calls upon the United Nations to investigate both massacres and to systematically monitor human rights and humanitarian law violations by all parties to Afghanistan's civil war.


FAIL

Here is more just for you, you are soo cute:

Afghanistan
Country Reports on Human Rights


The overall human rights situation remained extremely poor, and the Taliban committed numerous serious and systemic abuses. The reported informal easing of restrictions in 2000 reversed during the year; before November, the Taliban attempted to increase its control by increasing the authority of the PVSV religious police, by increasing restrictions, and by committing a greater number of abuses. Citizens remained unable to change their government or choose their leaders peacefully.

The Taliban carried out summary justice in the areas that it controlled, and reportedly was responsible for political and other extrajudicial killings, including targeted killings, summary executions, and deaths in custody. In September alleged foreign agents of al-Qaida killed Northern Alliance commander Ahmed Shah Masood. In November Taliban forces captured and executed opposition leader Abdul Haq and two associates. The Taliban took reprisals against civilian populations, such as the summary executions in January of an estimated 300 men and teenage boys of the Hazara ethnic minority in Bamiyan's



EPIC FAIL
Your words not mine.

So Afghanistan is in a better condition because females can recieve education, wow amazing, let me give you one more just to set your brain free, clean it off:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not an isolated case, crime, rape, murder, corruption is on the rise in Afghanistan, none which existed under Taliban.

Same Source

Violence against women remained a serious problem. Women and girls were subjected to rape, kidnaping, and forced marriage. Taliban restrictions against women and girls remained widespread, institutionally sanctioned, and systematic throughout most of the year.

The Taliban increased enforcement of strict dress codes and maintained the prohibition against women working outside the home except in strictly limited circumstances in the health care field and in some humanitarian assistance projects. The Taliban appeared to reverse a 2-year trend of relaxing enforcement of restrictions on women and girls and increasingly restricted female education and participation in the labor force.


EPIC FAIL

Ohh they seem to be doing just fine, they are still fighting, they are still governing much of the country, and the occupiers are hiding inside their well protected bases backed by jets, helicopter, missiles etc etc. Reminds me of the Soviets


You can't be that ignorant can you? The increase of causalities are a direct result of taking the fight to them.

U.S. launches 'major operation' in Afghanistan

U.S. troops have launched a "major operation" against Taliban fighters in southern Afghanistan, U.S. military officials announced in Afghanistan early Thursday.
U.S. Marines gather for a briefing in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, on Wednesday.

About 4,000 Americans, mostly from the Marines, and 650 Afghan soldiers and police launched Operation Khanjar -- "strike of the sword" -- in the Helmand River




Wait wait there is more:




CRASH AND BURN

You don't seem to realize the culture and religion of Afghans, you seem to think they want what you want. That is not the case my friend. See Not everyone wants to live the American fantasy life, some people have different way of life.



It may do you some good to learn about the bigger picture. You have some good information but that's only really looking at a very narrow part of the vastly more complex situation. I know it may be hard for you to wrap your head around some of the following information. So I typed it really slow. The blue things are links. Click on them and expand your narrow view of the whole.

The New Great Game

With all the has been going on in the Middle East and central Asia over the past few years. I've noticed that some members here at ATS are very well read and command a very good understanding of the situation. I've also noticed that many here do not. So You know me I'll try to bring it all together in one location.


For a better understanding of the situation

Undoubtedly Central Asia’s strategic importance in international affairs
is growing. The rivalries among Russia, China, United States, Iran, India,
and Pakistan not to mention the ever-changing pattern of relations among
local states (five former Soviet republics and Afghanistan) make the region’s
importance obviously clear. Central Asia's strategic importance for Washington, Moscow, and Beijing varies with each nation’s perception of its strategic interests.

Washington focuses primarily on Central Asia as an important theater in the war on terrorism. Additionally, it is viewed as a theater where America might counter a revived Russia or China, or a place to blunt any extension of Iranian influence. Moscow and Beijing view the region as a vital locale for defending critical domestic interests. This asymmetry of interest is




AGENDA FAILURE

And by the way Afghanistan is mostly ruled by warlords, or Taliban. American's as I said are hiding behind their bases:
This is Dostum we are talking about, all these warlords have control of Afghanistan, not the central government, not the occupiers etc etc.


60 Taliban Killed in Afghanistan as US Deploys More Troops


Authorities in southern Afghanistan said local and foreign troops have killed as many as 60 Taliban militants in the past week, as part of a stepped up anti-insurgency operation. And about 7,000 additional U.S. troops have begun deploying across volatile southern Afghanistan.

Deployment of additional American troops in Afghan border areas has worried Pakistani officials. They have long maintained the militancy in Pakistan has gained strength from insurgents who have been fleeing the U.S-led offensive in Afghanistan and taking refuge in Pakistani border areas.


The New Great Game

Almost 70% of Afghanistan is controlled and ran by regional chieftains who don't care for the Taliban or the New Government. They were the ones who helped the US over throw the Taliban in the first place. They remembered when we helped them fight off the Soviets.

So they returned the favor. The problem is that many of our generals and troops don't know that history and end up making new enemies of the ones who helped us in he first place. The same goes for Pakistani Tribal Chieftains they don't want the Taliban there either!


EPIC FAIL

Wait since I like you I will give you another one, this one will be like a pinch to wake you up from your dream:


Did you think that by simply joining ATS and coming here to give us your version of events that we would just tuck tail and run away after a few cheap jabs?

You have made a lot of assumptions about me and what I know. You know what they say about assuming.

PATHETIC



[edit on 6-9-2009 by SLAYER69]



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 03:47 AM
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reply to post by dooper
 

Japan was TRYING to surrender and we dropped the nuke? If they were trying so hard, why in hell did we have to drop the second?
To demonstrate that the 1st wasn't a fluke. That this new super-destructive technology, which nobody had ever seen before, was a reliable weapon & could therefore be resonably expected to be deployed against any & all future enemies of the USA.
Unconditional surrender? How utterly bizarre of you to repeat the rhetoric of the day when anyone who has read history knows that all diplomacy is about negotiation. The phrase "unconditional surrender" from the Potsdam Agreement by the Allies merely refered to Japan's armed forces laying down arms immediately before the terms, ie conditions, of the agreement would be in force. Do you honestly think that the Japanese had absolutely no input into that document through their diplomatic contact with Russia?
Less hollywood, less school-kid history; more reading between the lies, more thinking.
Pray do continue. You'll get stars from the people who were also indoctrinated by the same "education" system...
Having seen the way you attempt to derail a discussion by concentrating on minutiae & insults, whilst ignoring the thrust of an argument before, I'll get straight on:

Wednesday, 25 October 2000 19:30
The euro is continuing to perform badly on the international exchanges, dropping to a new record low of below 83 US cents...

www.rte.ie...

October 30, 2000
Web posted at: 8:45 PM EST (0145 GMT)
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) -- A U.N. panel on Monday approved Iraq's plan to receive oil-export payments in Europe's single currency after Baghdad decided to move the start date back a week.

archives.cnn.com...
(Running out of characters... Cont. Below)



posted on Sep, 6 2009 @ 04:09 AM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Before I leave I want to expose your tactic so everyone knows. See when evidence is provided you simply deny that it is an evidence without providing any reasoning behind it or any counter, simply ridiculing the whole idea. It is a tactic used by mmiichael and IDK88. Both I have had very similar discussion that I just had with you. All three use the same tactic, without providing any evidence simply deny the oppositions claim full stop. That is not a discussion that is ranting.

Keep doing what you do, I don't know what you are trying to achieve though



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