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Pepsi And The Zionist Plot
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The fact that we choose a conspiracy forum in the first place means we all have an axe to grind.
What better place to identify with poor victimized underdogs valiantly fighting arrogant thieving, grasping, manipulating perceived villains.
We're basically unfulfilled romantics at heart, all feel sense of betrayal, disenfranchisement, loss of identity. For a few minutes we can become heroic defenders of Truth, Justice, and the American way.
We can protect poor struggling Pepsi from the rapacious ravages of soft drink dominating Coca Cola. We can take up the Pepsi challenge.
Fighting words are better than punch ups in our local beverage serving emporium. Coke probably did 9/11. Notice scheduled deliveries were not made to the WTC complex the week before.
Mike
What better place to identify with poor victimized underdogs valiantly fighting arrogant thieving, grasping, manipulating perceived villains.
We're basically unfulfilled romantics at heart, all feel sense of betrayal, disenfranchisement, loss of identity. For a few minutes we can become heroic defenders of Truth, Justice, and the American way.
We can protect poor struggling Pepsi from the rapacious ravages of soft drink dominating Coca Cola. We can take up the Pepsi challenge.
Fighting words are better than punch ups in our local beverage serving emporium. Coke probably did 9/11. Notice scheduled deliveries were not made to the WTC complex the week before.
Mike
reply to post by mmiichael
It’s true some one is always passionately championing something. I was peddling the bicycle back from picking up my lunch today when a small gang of young fedora wearing Orthodox Jews to young to grow beards politely asked me at a stop sign if I was Jewish!
Had only they known what they were getting into huh Michael? I of course said no and stated my first name and that I am a natural human being living under nature’s laws but that as a person an actor wearing a mask and a legal straw man I could pretend to be anything they wanted me to be for the purpose of their inquiry.
They tried downplaying the query and simply said we are just trying to figure out through an informal survey how many of the local people are Jewish.
I of course new this wasn’t true, they thought I was Jewish and were miffed that I was riding my bicycle instead of walking on a Temple day. Water boarding is truly effective I got it out of the second one a minute into it! Just kidding!
Everyone is fighting for something Michael; it’s a shame we have to fight against one another instead of with one another for those things. They of course didn’t think I would understand why they were asking, it wasn’t an attempt to be deceitful but simply to spare them selves and me a full explanation. To spare them selves the embarrassment of something I would likely think was silly. Of course that just ended up making them feel sillier when what they imagined would escape me was more obvious to me than it was to them.
We had a fun little talk about separation of church and state and how lucky we all are to be who we all are, and the fact that we don’t have to hide it or make apologies for it, as long as we simply respect one another.
Of course they likely thought I was a raving lunatic and were asking, has this guy had his rabies shot?
Yet we all had fun, we all had a laugh, we all made the everyday chance mundane encounter more enjoyable and more memorable. Of course I had to get on their side, to empathize with them, to explain that I empathized to get them to reveal the truth as to why they asked. Believe it or not I do empathize with them, it’s something that they take very seriously.
People just need to have more empathy and consideration for one another. People won’t always let you help them, to fight with them and for them which is why it takes some patient extra effort and the occasional water boarding (still just kidding).
Finding a way to help people help themselves isn’t always easy Michael it takes patience, compassion, empathy and some wisdom too. The world can change, one person, one day at a time.
It’s true some one is always passionately championing something. I was peddling the bicycle back from picking up my lunch today when a small gang of young fedora wearing Orthodox Jews to young to grow beards politely asked me at a stop sign if I was Jewish!
Had only they known what they were getting into huh Michael? I of course said no and stated my first name and that I am a natural human being living under nature’s laws but that as a person an actor wearing a mask and a legal straw man I could pretend to be anything they wanted me to be for the purpose of their inquiry.
They tried downplaying the query and simply said we are just trying to figure out through an informal survey how many of the local people are Jewish.
I of course new this wasn’t true, they thought I was Jewish and were miffed that I was riding my bicycle instead of walking on a Temple day. Water boarding is truly effective I got it out of the second one a minute into it! Just kidding!
Everyone is fighting for something Michael; it’s a shame we have to fight against one another instead of with one another for those things. They of course didn’t think I would understand why they were asking, it wasn’t an attempt to be deceitful but simply to spare them selves and me a full explanation. To spare them selves the embarrassment of something I would likely think was silly. Of course that just ended up making them feel sillier when what they imagined would escape me was more obvious to me than it was to them.
We had a fun little talk about separation of church and state and how lucky we all are to be who we all are, and the fact that we don’t have to hide it or make apologies for it, as long as we simply respect one another.
Of course they likely thought I was a raving lunatic and were asking, has this guy had his rabies shot?
Yet we all had fun, we all had a laugh, we all made the everyday chance mundane encounter more enjoyable and more memorable. Of course I had to get on their side, to empathize with them, to explain that I empathized to get them to reveal the truth as to why they asked. Believe it or not I do empathize with them, it’s something that they take very seriously.
People just need to have more empathy and consideration for one another. People won’t always let you help them, to fight with them and for them which is why it takes some patient extra effort and the occasional water boarding (still just kidding).
Finding a way to help people help themselves isn’t always easy Michael it takes patience, compassion, empathy and some wisdom too. The world can change, one person, one day at a time.
Proty, meant as constructive criticism, you should upgrade your inventory of possible explanations to events. Many things are innocuous, random, odd
occurrences, happenstance.
I once came back from England for a wedding and stayed with my parents. Walking on the main drag a few blocks away from their suburban home, some foreboding well-dresses Germanic looking type stopped me on the street and said "Are you Jewish?" Turns out they were saying Kaddish for a recently deceased friend and a 10th Jew was required for the service.
Communication online has changed in the decade or so I've been active on it. The Internet first attracted enthusiasts full of joy, a sense of fun, and camaraderie.
Around the time it became cheap enough and demanded no mastery of computers, the underutilized paranoids, full- and part-time schizophrenics, the hostile, the attention craving, the desperately insecure – came onboard in force.
A lot of thing happening in the outside world, but the mood and tone has changed a lot. It's not a party any more. And that's a shame.
My own reasons for hanging around here? Initially to do some research on a project in the works. Not espionage, just a news conveyance I’m working on.
I like the nutso threads better than the cold hard data exchanges. I’ve discovered seeing and interfacing with the imbalances and biases of others is therapeutic and educational.
Interacting with whack jobs makes you more aware of the areas in which you yourself are out of kilter and need realignment.
I say this non-judgementally. Belief in the unlikely, the improbable, the impossible have brought us to where we are today. We fly around thousands of feet in the air in giant metal machines and don’t think twice about it, Had we all been normal and completely sane we would never have entertained our personal delusions and dreams. We’d still be back hunting and gathering or plowing fields somewhere. After all, living in artificial environments obeying someone’s arbitray rules is lunacy.
I’m learning a lot here, and it’s becoming my biggest form of R & R. I pick up an awful lot from you. You’re very smart and highly articulate. A strong vein of the blarney. But that’s wonderful.
Were you ever to broaden you’re horizons, with your inherent genius for invoking attention and instant identification, you’d blow away half the writers in the world.
Always keep in mind knowledge acts like a like a fuel. You have to watch what you put into the system. Bad information food is bad for the system.
I expect you know that and are working at getting the best performance out of your engine.
Cheers,
Mike
I once came back from England for a wedding and stayed with my parents. Walking on the main drag a few blocks away from their suburban home, some foreboding well-dresses Germanic looking type stopped me on the street and said "Are you Jewish?" Turns out they were saying Kaddish for a recently deceased friend and a 10th Jew was required for the service.
Communication online has changed in the decade or so I've been active on it. The Internet first attracted enthusiasts full of joy, a sense of fun, and camaraderie.
Around the time it became cheap enough and demanded no mastery of computers, the underutilized paranoids, full- and part-time schizophrenics, the hostile, the attention craving, the desperately insecure – came onboard in force.
A lot of thing happening in the outside world, but the mood and tone has changed a lot. It's not a party any more. And that's a shame.
My own reasons for hanging around here? Initially to do some research on a project in the works. Not espionage, just a news conveyance I’m working on.
I like the nutso threads better than the cold hard data exchanges. I’ve discovered seeing and interfacing with the imbalances and biases of others is therapeutic and educational.
Interacting with whack jobs makes you more aware of the areas in which you yourself are out of kilter and need realignment.
I say this non-judgementally. Belief in the unlikely, the improbable, the impossible have brought us to where we are today. We fly around thousands of feet in the air in giant metal machines and don’t think twice about it, Had we all been normal and completely sane we would never have entertained our personal delusions and dreams. We’d still be back hunting and gathering or plowing fields somewhere. After all, living in artificial environments obeying someone’s arbitray rules is lunacy.
I’m learning a lot here, and it’s becoming my biggest form of R & R. I pick up an awful lot from you. You’re very smart and highly articulate. A strong vein of the blarney. But that’s wonderful.
Were you ever to broaden you’re horizons, with your inherent genius for invoking attention and instant identification, you’d blow away half the writers in the world.
Always keep in mind knowledge acts like a like a fuel. You have to watch what you put into the system. Bad information food is bad for the system.
I expect you know that and are working at getting the best performance out of your engine.
Cheers,
Mike
Are you seriously suggesting that the British held country of Palastine was simply handed over to the fledgling state of Israel & that the non-jewish occupants went meekly into exile, all because the UN voted?
Originally posted by finemanmConquered people? Last I checked Israel was created by UN resolution and not by "conquering" anything or anyone. Wars started only after the international community VOTED Israel into existence. They also voted a "Palestinian" state into existence too, except that wasn't acceptable to Israel's Arab neighbors. They chose to go to war instead.
Originally posted by Bunken Drum It may suit some people to try to erase the identity of a conquered people,
Dont be absurd
They were driven out @gunpoint, killed or terrorised into submission & mostly expelled later. How is this not "conquered".
How would the USA react if The International Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster got themselves funded & armed by China, then took over Mexico, expelling the Mexicans into US territory, & the UN voted to allow the creation of the state of Pasta-ine? Well, clearly, since there are no double standards involved, the USA would capitulate. My hole.
Btw, I agree Proto. But since it was bound to happen, as you say, "Yeah!"
The cleric in the OP is obviously mistaken or lying about pepsi being an acronym, but I notice that nobody managed to counter my point that the man was right about 1 thing, buying stuff from American owned franchises does indeed support Israel. So instead we have to rehash the same old same old...
Originally posted by Bunken Drum
They were driven out @gunpoint, killed or terrorised into submission & mostly expelled later. How is this not "conquered".
How would the USA react if The International Church of The Flying Spaghetti Monster got themselves funded & armed by China, then took over Mexico, expelling the Mexicans into US territory, & the UN voted to allow the creation of the state of Pasta-ine? Well, clearly, since there are no double standards involved, the USA would capitulate. My hole.
Btw, I agree Proto. But since it was bound to happen, as you say, "Yeah!"
The cleric in the OP is obviously mistaken or lying about pepsi being an acronym, but I notice that nobody managed to counter my point that the man was right about 1 thing, buying stuff from American owned franchises does indeed support Israel. So instead we have to rehash the same old same old...
You forgot to mention a war waged the very first day of the country's existence.
Do you know about the mass murders of Jews in the region when the British still controlled it? About how Al Husseini, the grand mufti of Jerusalem, and Yasser Arafat's uncle, was paid handsomely by the Nazis to regularly appear on German radio and was imploring an adoption of the Nazi "final solution" by Arabs. In March 1944, Al Husseini broadcast a call for a jihad to "kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion."
Did you know close to a million Jews were expelled from surrounding Muslim country immediately after? People whose families had lived there for centuries.
Do you know why the people now calling themselves Palesinians left Israel? Because their Arab neighbours told them to, even though they were invited to return and try to live in peace.
You apparently have read nothing and know nothing about the formation of the State of Israel except the revisionist histories so many who love to hate have become infatuated with.
Mike
reply to post by mmiichael I see. So 2 wrongs do indeed make a
right? Frankly, when people start yelping "revisionist", I'm inclined to doubt their sanity, however, in this case I'm certain that both sides, &
more besides, are guilty of muddying the waters & outright lying.
I challenge you to find a single post of mine on this subject, anywhere, that shows any hatred. In fact, my paternal grandmother was Jewish, through her siblings our family has a whole bunch of Jews, some practicing, some not, 2 Israeli citizens & 1 who lives there about 1/2 the time.
My position on this is that, whilst it is undeniable that people who practice Judaism or could be considered ethnically Jewish (like myself) certainly do need a secure homeland, behind the borders of which they/we could defend against any further mass persecution, that does not give anyone the right to arbitrarily lay claim to a piece of land occupied by other people.
However, the deed is done now & there are plenty of Israelis who have known no other home; it would be as wrong to boot them out as it was to boot the Palastinians out. Still, until the Palastinians do have security & prosperity there is no way this conflict will be resolved.
To that end, it is my view that Israel should comply with previous UN resolutions, UN troops with a mandate to forcibly stop attacks on Israel, & vice versa, should be posted to the border areas, international aid should focus on the building of infrastructure in order to provide the Palastinians with jobs & Israel should pay compensation to individuals or their surviving relatives for having been booted off their property. The Temple Mount? IDK, I'm not a diplomat & nor do I understand or even care why people should get so upset about it. Let wiser heads than mine sort it out
Oh, & 1 more thing: the USA should stop arming Israel & Iran & Syria should be told in no uncertain terms that they will face UN nukes if they invade.
I challenge you to find a single post of mine on this subject, anywhere, that shows any hatred. In fact, my paternal grandmother was Jewish, through her siblings our family has a whole bunch of Jews, some practicing, some not, 2 Israeli citizens & 1 who lives there about 1/2 the time.
My position on this is that, whilst it is undeniable that people who practice Judaism or could be considered ethnically Jewish (like myself) certainly do need a secure homeland, behind the borders of which they/we could defend against any further mass persecution, that does not give anyone the right to arbitrarily lay claim to a piece of land occupied by other people.
However, the deed is done now & there are plenty of Israelis who have known no other home; it would be as wrong to boot them out as it was to boot the Palastinians out. Still, until the Palastinians do have security & prosperity there is no way this conflict will be resolved.
To that end, it is my view that Israel should comply with previous UN resolutions, UN troops with a mandate to forcibly stop attacks on Israel, & vice versa, should be posted to the border areas, international aid should focus on the building of infrastructure in order to provide the Palastinians with jobs & Israel should pay compensation to individuals or their surviving relatives for having been booted off their property. The Temple Mount? IDK, I'm not a diplomat & nor do I understand or even care why people should get so upset about it. Let wiser heads than mine sort it out
Oh, & 1 more thing: the USA should stop arming Israel & Iran & Syria should be told in no uncertain terms that they will face UN nukes if they invade.
Originally posted by Bunken Drum
My position on this is that, whilst it is undeniable that people who practice Judaism or could be considered ethnically Jewish (like myself) certainly do need a secure homeland, behind the borders of which they/we could defend against any further mass persecution, that does not give anyone the right to arbitrarily lay claim to a piece of land occupied by other people.
That's where we disagree. My knowledge of the historical situation is from extensive reading as well as primary source research I once engaged in.
The currently circulating version of the situation is far from accurate. The region of the Sinai that is now Israel was unusually under populated during it’s control by the Ottoman Empire which ended after WWI.. There had been a Jewish community in Jerusalem for centuries. Starting at the end of the 19th Century Jews started to come, often on foot, from Eastern Europe where persecution was fierce. They purchased acreage at extortionate prices from Arab landowners, many of whom were in Egypt.
Malaria ridden swamps were cleared, irrigation and collective farming were introduced. Jews were paying 5-10 times the wages offered for unskilled labour in neighbouring countries. This caused a massive influx of impoverished Arabs seeking an improved standard of living. These Arab immigrants who arrived between 1920 and WWII, are the vast majority of those now claiming their right by heritage.
Of course there were terrible transgressions on both sides by Jews and Arabs. But the propagated quasi-mythology of Jews walking in and throwing out the inhabitants is simply not supported by the extensive documentation, census figures, contemporary reporting.
I understand your sentiments, but I think there are misimpressions you carry that colour your understanding of events. History is endlessly open to interpretation and analysis. But one should at the very least start with getting facts straight.
Hope that at least clarifies where I am coming from.
Mike
Once again the thread degrades to a tireless and endless point counter point over the plight of the Palestinians who were certainly far more
indigenous to the region than Europe's and Asia's Jews who there is no denying migrated into the region in massive numbers as sponsored guests who
took over the house.
That's just a historical fact that no amount of tedious hair splitting is ever going to alter.
Yet as tragic as the Palestinians plight is and as dire as the need to rectify it not only for their sake but because in part Israel's ultimate survival is eventually going to depend on them concluding a just and lasting peace with the Palestinians this is pale in comparison to the actual importance of Coca Cola which reaches across all cultural, religious, ethnic and national lines and represents truly all that is good in the Universe.
Do we really need to and is it really wise to leave the fate of the world's most beloeved sparkling evervescent refreshing drink hanging in the balance while we ignore the dire consequences of doing this to go through the same old litenay of talking points and propoganda regarding the birth and true nature of the Israeli Zionist state.
Can you not see how the Jews of the world are being tricked into turning a blind eye to the plight of Coca Cola through this madness?
Coca Cola sold at every Kosher Bakery, Delicatessen and Super Market known to man!
For G-d's sake man wake up!
The Zionists must be stopped. Israel can stay but must make peace with the Palestinians, should Coke falter and fall as a result of all this madness I will bring my full power to bear to punish all those responsible!
Then I am going to be in trouble for violating the Prime Directive but this is Coke involved here. Coke!
Barbarians!
That's just a historical fact that no amount of tedious hair splitting is ever going to alter.
Yet as tragic as the Palestinians plight is and as dire as the need to rectify it not only for their sake but because in part Israel's ultimate survival is eventually going to depend on them concluding a just and lasting peace with the Palestinians this is pale in comparison to the actual importance of Coca Cola which reaches across all cultural, religious, ethnic and national lines and represents truly all that is good in the Universe.
Do we really need to and is it really wise to leave the fate of the world's most beloeved sparkling evervescent refreshing drink hanging in the balance while we ignore the dire consequences of doing this to go through the same old litenay of talking points and propoganda regarding the birth and true nature of the Israeli Zionist state.
Can you not see how the Jews of the world are being tricked into turning a blind eye to the plight of Coca Cola through this madness?
Coca Cola sold at every Kosher Bakery, Delicatessen and Super Market known to man!
For G-d's sake man wake up!
The Zionists must be stopped. Israel can stay but must make peace with the Palestinians, should Coke falter and fall as a result of all this madness I will bring my full power to bear to punish all those responsible!
Then I am going to be in trouble for violating the Prime Directive but this is Coke involved here. Coke!
Barbarians!
You don't get it Proty. Any assembly of words will not change your infected take on the situation. The claim is seeking a homeland. It's pretty
clear this is now considered the next step toward the destruction of the Evil Zionist state. Ask Hamas.
You will not be able to get a Reuben sandwich anywhere in the Middle East if all goes as planned.
Avoiding beverages that will remind the masses of the days of crusading imperialism, Dr Pepper will be declared the Halal approved soft drink of the Middle East. A giant pipeline will be built to supply the entire region.
The every underdog has his day.
Mike
You will not be able to get a Reuben sandwich anywhere in the Middle East if all goes as planned.
Avoiding beverages that will remind the masses of the days of crusading imperialism, Dr Pepper will be declared the Halal approved soft drink of the Middle East. A giant pipeline will be built to supply the entire region.
The every underdog has his day.
Mike
reply to post by mmiichael
It's so simple of a solution really. You divide the land, you create a demilitarized zone and you arm both sides of the conflict to the teeth and create a mutually assured destruction in the process just like you have with the two koreas.
You clear out a little village in the DMZ, set up a little house in the middle where each side has half the house for when ever they want to sit down and talk.
After a while, I know this sounds hard to believe the two sides will get to missing one another! Someone will want a Rueben someone will want some Baklava and they will start to pine whymsically and romantically for one another.
There will be a Jewish Romeo, and a Palestinian Juliette, there parents won't tolerate it and they will commit romantic suicide since the world won't let them be together, there parents will feel bad and eventually get to gether to play a game of Bocci Ball!
You can't have peace in a lopsided situation, with lopsided rules and dual standards Michael!
Tell me where that ever works?
The Cold War never turned hot, the Koreans love to beat their chests now and then but they know it's just not worth it going toe to toe no one really wins.
What made Hitler and Germany do all the dispicable things they did? They thought they could really win.
Why are we bogged down in Afghanistan like a bunch of numb skulls?
We thought we could really win.
The reality is you can't conquer a people who don't want to be conquered and who don't believe they should be conquered.
The difference between post World War I Germans and post World War II Germans was all based on the Germans accepting that their war of aggression for living space and for ethnic purity was wrong and unethical.
You aren't going to convince the Palestinians that their plight is wrong and unethical. They aren't ever going to be happy being occupied.
Look at what's going on in Iraq today now that we have pulled out, just an escalation of the violence that always plaques people who are forced to live together who don't want to live together.
When you have a strong Totaltarian leader you can rule such a people, but when you pull a Tito out of Yugoslavia it breaks up. Without Sadaam Hussein in Iraq it will eventually break up too.
So you might say great, you can rule over people who don't want to get along under a mutual system with a very strong hand, but the reality is morally that's not how any democratic nation wants to be viewed and Israel is a democratic nation. It represents so called Western Values of equality and justice and fairplay.
Where the whole thing bogs down is the well they did this and they did that, and this one did this and this one did that...
So what? Move one, get over it, get beyond it, the tired old arguments well in 1948 we tried this, and in 1967 we tried that and in 1972 we tried this, and in 1984 we tried that and in 1991 we tried this...so what, today is another day, so is tomorrow.
The best company I ever worked for was owned by a man whose favorite motto was "I don't want to hear about how your trying, I don't need people who try working for me, I am not looking to employ the average, I need people who can succeed working for me".
All the excuses are really just a sign of weakness and innefectiveness and a lack of inovation.
Where there is a will there is a way and both sides lack the proper will, yet each side wants to claim some superior morallity or plan or destiny.
Each side wants rewarded for trying, but trying is just another word for failing.
When you stop rewarding people for failing, that's when they start figuring out a way to succeed.
I don't expect sheer innovative brilliance when it comes to politics out of the Palestinians they lack the education and sophistication and cultural understandings.
I do expect it out of Jewish people, not out of Zionists who in my humble oppinon have an agenda that in fact is all about what the reality on the ground is.
There are Israelis who hate the Zionists Michael and Israelis who despise the hawkish governments, just like there are Americans who despise the Neoconservatives and the ultra liberals.
Part of the problem is that the Israeli society isn't open enough internally to tolerate the debate because of how effected the debate is by Jews who don't really have a vested interest because they don't really live in Israel but think they are doing the right thing by promoting the same old 'we tried and failed arguments it's not our fault because we tried'.
That would get you a pink slip for weakness in the orginizations I am used to.
There is a way to make peace, and the onous really is on Israel to do it.
It ignores it at it's own peril because it's spoiled to death from being rewarded for 'trying' instead of succeeding.
I gaurantee you if the West cut of the aide and the arms and Russia or China didn't step in to fill the void for Middle East Access the Israeli State would figure out a way to make peace pretty darn quick.
Ultimately a whole lot of minimized and disenfranchised people are suffering in the interem and there is just no way that can be sold forever as a thing that's going to make Israel marketable as a never ending charity case.
Especially in tough times, arguing and talk is for lovers and fools.
Winners just get the job done!
It's so simple of a solution really. You divide the land, you create a demilitarized zone and you arm both sides of the conflict to the teeth and create a mutually assured destruction in the process just like you have with the two koreas.
You clear out a little village in the DMZ, set up a little house in the middle where each side has half the house for when ever they want to sit down and talk.
After a while, I know this sounds hard to believe the two sides will get to missing one another! Someone will want a Rueben someone will want some Baklava and they will start to pine whymsically and romantically for one another.
There will be a Jewish Romeo, and a Palestinian Juliette, there parents won't tolerate it and they will commit romantic suicide since the world won't let them be together, there parents will feel bad and eventually get to gether to play a game of Bocci Ball!
You can't have peace in a lopsided situation, with lopsided rules and dual standards Michael!
Tell me where that ever works?
The Cold War never turned hot, the Koreans love to beat their chests now and then but they know it's just not worth it going toe to toe no one really wins.
What made Hitler and Germany do all the dispicable things they did? They thought they could really win.
Why are we bogged down in Afghanistan like a bunch of numb skulls?
We thought we could really win.
The reality is you can't conquer a people who don't want to be conquered and who don't believe they should be conquered.
The difference between post World War I Germans and post World War II Germans was all based on the Germans accepting that their war of aggression for living space and for ethnic purity was wrong and unethical.
You aren't going to convince the Palestinians that their plight is wrong and unethical. They aren't ever going to be happy being occupied.
Look at what's going on in Iraq today now that we have pulled out, just an escalation of the violence that always plaques people who are forced to live together who don't want to live together.
When you have a strong Totaltarian leader you can rule such a people, but when you pull a Tito out of Yugoslavia it breaks up. Without Sadaam Hussein in Iraq it will eventually break up too.
So you might say great, you can rule over people who don't want to get along under a mutual system with a very strong hand, but the reality is morally that's not how any democratic nation wants to be viewed and Israel is a democratic nation. It represents so called Western Values of equality and justice and fairplay.
Where the whole thing bogs down is the well they did this and they did that, and this one did this and this one did that...
So what? Move one, get over it, get beyond it, the tired old arguments well in 1948 we tried this, and in 1967 we tried that and in 1972 we tried this, and in 1984 we tried that and in 1991 we tried this...so what, today is another day, so is tomorrow.
The best company I ever worked for was owned by a man whose favorite motto was "I don't want to hear about how your trying, I don't need people who try working for me, I am not looking to employ the average, I need people who can succeed working for me".
All the excuses are really just a sign of weakness and innefectiveness and a lack of inovation.
Where there is a will there is a way and both sides lack the proper will, yet each side wants to claim some superior morallity or plan or destiny.
Each side wants rewarded for trying, but trying is just another word for failing.
When you stop rewarding people for failing, that's when they start figuring out a way to succeed.
I don't expect sheer innovative brilliance when it comes to politics out of the Palestinians they lack the education and sophistication and cultural understandings.
I do expect it out of Jewish people, not out of Zionists who in my humble oppinon have an agenda that in fact is all about what the reality on the ground is.
There are Israelis who hate the Zionists Michael and Israelis who despise the hawkish governments, just like there are Americans who despise the Neoconservatives and the ultra liberals.
Part of the problem is that the Israeli society isn't open enough internally to tolerate the debate because of how effected the debate is by Jews who don't really have a vested interest because they don't really live in Israel but think they are doing the right thing by promoting the same old 'we tried and failed arguments it's not our fault because we tried'.
That would get you a pink slip for weakness in the orginizations I am used to.
There is a way to make peace, and the onous really is on Israel to do it.
It ignores it at it's own peril because it's spoiled to death from being rewarded for 'trying' instead of succeeding.
I gaurantee you if the West cut of the aide and the arms and Russia or China didn't step in to fill the void for Middle East Access the Israeli State would figure out a way to make peace pretty darn quick.
Ultimately a whole lot of minimized and disenfranchised people are suffering in the interem and there is just no way that can be sold forever as a thing that's going to make Israel marketable as a never ending charity case.
Especially in tough times, arguing and talk is for lovers and fools.
Winners just get the job done!
Well put Proto. I knew there was a reason I made you a Friend. I'd just forgotten, probably drunk, so I didn't U2U.
Still, Coca Cola is the Evil Empire. Personally, I wouldn't drink any of their products unless I knew for a fact they had not been paid for (obviously in some non-lawbreaking fashion ). Shame it does taste so good, well, I say that but its been so long I'm not certain I remember it that well. Now, Irn Bru, thats the stuff of both heroes & culture!
Still, Coca Cola is the Evil Empire. Personally, I wouldn't drink any of their products unless I knew for a fact they had not been paid for (obviously in some non-lawbreaking fashion ). Shame it does taste so good, well, I say that but its been so long I'm not certain I remember it that well. Now, Irn Bru, thats the stuff of both heroes & culture!
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Muslim cleric defends Coke
BBC News
Do not be alarmed ......
BBC News
Proto & mmiichael ~ cheers for the chuckle ........
Muslim cleric defends Coke
A local Coca Cola official said the company's US headquarters were now investigating the source of the rumour which, he said, was having an effect on sales.
For several days the rumours have been circulating that if the Coca Cola logo is viewed in a mirror or upside down, it appears to read in Arabic: "No to Mohammed," "No to Mecca."
BBC News
Do not be alarmed ......
The mufti is now quoted as saying the logo has been thoroughly examined by a panel of religious experts and given the all clear.
BBC News
Proto & mmiichael ~ cheers for the chuckle ........
repy to ProtoplasmicTraveler
After you cut away from all the rhetoric and the romanticizing of the Palestinian plight you have to deal with the present day reality of the situation.
Millions of people in the Middle East have been forced to move around or come to terms with changes because of regional wars. Leaders made unfortunate decisions and they are the victims. That’s what happened to the Palestinians. But they weren’t able to deal with the fact they had fought along side their neighbouring Arab states and lost – badly. For anyone else in a similar position you assess your situation. You fought you lost, you come to terms with who won.
The Israelis have made efforts to settle with the Palestinians, to accommodate them, to live beside them. Bad advice was taken. All efforts at reconciliation were rebuffed. Palestinians at peace just translates to a struggling state.
Gaza was a model. The Palestinians took control of land taken from Egypt in their unsuccessful effort to wipe Israel off the map in 1967. Egypt refuses to take it back. The Palestinians on being given an autonomous sub-state immediately used it as an attack base against Israel.
The Iranians saw an opportunity to extend their influence and finance, arm, and train Hamas to antagonize Israel to the point there would be retaliation - which there was.
Palestinian leadership have realized they are better as permanent victims in a constant struggle with Israel. The constant flow of millions in support money from Europe beats orange groves. That is their economy and their identity.
They have become the spearhead for the final resolution the Muslim world has for the State of Israel – it’s destruction. It has been made clear with words and actions of multiple levels. The Palestinians have allowed themselves to become pawns in an ugly destructive game.
You don’t see it, you won’t see it. It’s been coming since 0.2% of the Muslim controlled Middle East was allocated to Jews approaching a century ago.
It’s a NO JEWS ALLOWED – PUNISHMENT OF DEATH club.
Whatever Israel does will never be enough, no matter what their concessions are, no matter how far they go to accommodate their Arab neighbours.
The Palestinians working with Israel would benefit them and everyone in the region. They never have and never will see that as an option. It’s terrible, it’s unproductive, it contravenes the positive aspects of human nature.
That is the terrible reality recent Israeli governments have had to face.
Their mandate is survival. They have acted accordingly.
Mike
[edit on 5-9-2009 by mmiichael]
After you cut away from all the rhetoric and the romanticizing of the Palestinian plight you have to deal with the present day reality of the situation.
Millions of people in the Middle East have been forced to move around or come to terms with changes because of regional wars. Leaders made unfortunate decisions and they are the victims. That’s what happened to the Palestinians. But they weren’t able to deal with the fact they had fought along side their neighbouring Arab states and lost – badly. For anyone else in a similar position you assess your situation. You fought you lost, you come to terms with who won.
The Israelis have made efforts to settle with the Palestinians, to accommodate them, to live beside them. Bad advice was taken. All efforts at reconciliation were rebuffed. Palestinians at peace just translates to a struggling state.
Gaza was a model. The Palestinians took control of land taken from Egypt in their unsuccessful effort to wipe Israel off the map in 1967. Egypt refuses to take it back. The Palestinians on being given an autonomous sub-state immediately used it as an attack base against Israel.
The Iranians saw an opportunity to extend their influence and finance, arm, and train Hamas to antagonize Israel to the point there would be retaliation - which there was.
Palestinian leadership have realized they are better as permanent victims in a constant struggle with Israel. The constant flow of millions in support money from Europe beats orange groves. That is their economy and their identity.
They have become the spearhead for the final resolution the Muslim world has for the State of Israel – it’s destruction. It has been made clear with words and actions of multiple levels. The Palestinians have allowed themselves to become pawns in an ugly destructive game.
You don’t see it, you won’t see it. It’s been coming since 0.2% of the Muslim controlled Middle East was allocated to Jews approaching a century ago.
It’s a NO JEWS ALLOWED – PUNISHMENT OF DEATH club.
Whatever Israel does will never be enough, no matter what their concessions are, no matter how far they go to accommodate their Arab neighbours.
The Palestinians working with Israel would benefit them and everyone in the region. They never have and never will see that as an option. It’s terrible, it’s unproductive, it contravenes the positive aspects of human nature.
That is the terrible reality recent Israeli governments have had to face.
Their mandate is survival. They have acted accordingly.
Mike
[edit on 5-9-2009 by mmiichael]
Originally posted by Bunken Drum
Well put Proto. I knew there was a reason I made you a Friend. I'd just forgotten, probably drunk, so I didn't U2U.
Still, Coca Cola is the Evil Empire. Personally, I wouldn't drink any of their products unless I knew for a fact they had not been paid for (obviously in some non-lawbreaking fashion ). Shame it does taste so good, well, I say that but its been so long I'm not certain I remember it that well. Now, Irn Bru, thats the stuff of both heroes & culture!
No doubt about it no multi-national corporation is a positive or contributing factor in evolutionary development. They rob, they steal, they committ us to wars to keep markets open to them and expand their customer base, they feed us harmful chemicals and even more harmful ideas and bank and suck most of the profits right out of the economy never utilizing them to put people to work who need jobs or pay higher wages to those who are working for them, or to do really anything to make the world a better place except for it's executives and major stock holders.
Still I love coke! I don't mind it if I am getting kissed when I am getting screwed.
I am not sure if humanity can ever stamp out greed or evil or callous indiference to one's fellow man, but I think it's always in the evil empire's best interest to be not too evil, as sooner or later the rebels will strike back and the good guys always win in the end (in the movies, the movies that go better with a nice buttery cholesterol laden bucket of sodium saturated popcorn and an ICE COLD COKE!).
The preceding was not a paid for announcement by the Coca Cola Bottling Company or it's local distributors!
Coca Cola® is a registered trademark of the Coca Cola Bottling Company™ the Coca Cola flute glass bottle© is copy written protected and is not licensed for duplication by any unauthorized parties, please refer to § 32 ¶2 for further information.
reply to post by mmiichael
Honestly Michael sounds like a bunch of defeatist thinking born of a lack of confidence and proper ambition to me.
The Shah was very friendly to Israel and quite helpful and while Persia is in Asia and not the Middle East its people are predominantly Muslim.
The Saudis, the United Arab Emirates, and the Egyptians are all openly tolerant to Israel as is Jordan.
It takes time to influence people to just the right mix. I was born in Pittsburgh which wasn’t just home to me but once upon a time before William Pitt came along home to the Miamian Tribe of Native Americans.
Today their descendants here in Miami, are actually infusing hundreds of millions of dollars into the State of Florida during its budget crisis. Of course they are getting some nice concessions in return for the money.
Once the corrupt agents got out of the way and we stopped breaking every treaty we would sign as soon as we figured out there was gold, or coal, or oil on the land we settled them on, and actually stopped persecuting them for being G-dless heathens most of the tribes which have Independent Nation Status on their Reservations are doing outstandingly well.
They no longer try to scalp us on the battlefields but in the Casinos like civilized barbarians! The hypocritical heathen Christians of course line up to get scalped with their paychecks in hand to enjoy the vices and thrills it’s silly pagan administrators would love to stamp out, much like they wanted to stamp out the Indians themselves.
If you actually employed strictly logic instead of emotional appeals twisted to seem logical the only logical conclusion you are advocating is genocide.
Whether you tacitly can admit to that, or even consciously understand that is what you are advocating that is the only logical conclusion of your arguments that there is no chance to ever make peace so the only way then peace could ever be achieved is through the Palestinians wholesale elimination and that is what the Zionists have wanted since before Israel was even founded as an Independent Nation in it’s own right, and is clearly part of and evident of the widely published Zionist manifesto of the time.
You are stuck in a self defeating spiral of circular logic based on emotion and fear and not fact.
It robs you of your humanity as well as your better judgment as well as the initiative to keep searching for solutions.
If at first you don’t succeed try, try again.
The reality is that the Jews want a homeland argument only goes so far as most Israelis don’t actually live in Israel and most Jews have never applied for citizenship under the Law of Return anyway.
If it’s really your homeland then get your behind on over there and make it home. You don’t and won’t and neither do most of the people who argue the “you can’t make peace with the animals they want to stamp out all the Jews”.
That’s a crock, they want compensated for their lost property (Just like the Jews did after the Holocaust) they want to live in real self governed, self determination not in an Israeli administered and sabotaged experiment at it. They want real economic opportunities to enjoy a quality of life and those are all things the Zionist fear. It’s that typical self fulfilling prophecy meddling of limiting Palestinian economic opportunities, and smashing their infrastructure and infiltrating their fledgling governments before they even get off the ground that makes peace impossible and Zionists claims self fulfilling prophecies.
It’s utter nonsense, the Israelis complain bitterly about the far lesser adverse affect that the Palestinians have on their safety and security than the Palestinians have to suffer of Israel’s adverse affect on their safety and security, yet there is not even a shred of empathy on the Israeli side. Though that’s not entirely true, Israelis who live in Israel do see the actual living conditions and the politics involved and many are far more tolerant and hopeful than the Jews living abroad.
One of the problems that Jews living abroad suffer, and Zionists who are often not Jewish is a lack of true perspective, you all love to site esoteric history books written to bolster your inane and insane suppositions with out actually having a ‘on the ground perspective’.
Go live in Gaza Michael and understand that these people aren’t sitting around their Rooms to Go furnished Condominiums watching Flat Screen TV’s and chatting on the Internet in a home with a refrigerator full of food or a cabinet full of medicine, or shelves full of books. Understand they live behind concrete walls ringed with automated machinegun pill boxes and have limited movement and access to the outside world. Understand that they live in cramped conditions of squalor and malnutrition devoid of the access to the Libraries, cultural events, and learning mechanisms to give them the same perspective of the Western World and it’s advantages that you and I enjoy.
You and I friend Michael are the sum total of our environments and experiences, so too are they.
The gulf between what exists in our environments and our life experiences and theirs is so huge as to be the difference between night and day.
The challenges are huge I will grant you that. The mistakes made by both sides are even bigger I will grant you that.
One side is suitably armed and properly endowed and educated to no better and be better but does not do better and chooses to convince itself there is no percentage in trying. One side is so disadvantaged as to the extent if it were a voluntary race they would be well served to not even show up to the race. Yet there they are absent all the propaganda, stuck behind those walls, with those machine guns trained on them, living in absolute squalor absent almost everything you and I take for granted to form our realities and perspectives.
I am not interested in the feeble excuses, or the canned rhetoric, or the paranoia, or the self defeating perspective as it serves no purpose and has no positive outcome. It is infectious thinking for the weak minded and uninspired, the lazy and indifferent.
Charity based arguments are pathetic, and all ultimately most of these arguments boil down to, is in ‘our collective estimation we believe we are entitled too because of…’ malarkey is all I have to say. You reap what you sew in the world, and Israel ignores what it sews at it’s own peril.
By your own admission it is a fool’s endeavor because the numbers are ultimately stacked against you.
Which is why well intentioned but ignorant third party interlopers with no vested standing other than notions of solidarity born of religion or race weigh in heavily and constantly imagining they are doing the right thing by creating a vast united front to advocate something that’s JUST AS STUPID AS THE DAY IS LONG.
If it’s your homeland, get your butt on home! If it’s not understand it is a Nation not a church, not a genetic breeding ground as I really think Sammy Davis Jr. wasn’t from around there, and neither was just about everyone else living in modern day Israel.
If the Jews who continue to voluntarily live in Diaspora for economic, political and regional reasons got off their collective butts and actually went over there to live, not for a romantic “I am here mom picture moment’ holiday but to actually live and actually saw it they wouldn’t be so naively or callously indifferent to it.
I honestly don’t care what goes on in England or Poland my ancestral ‘Homeland’ because Miami is my home, just like Toronto is yours.
I honestly don’t care that much about the plight of the Palestinians or the Jews, but I really do care that the Jews have been suckered into behaving this way as it is this type of behavior that is going to lead to another self fulfilling prophecy called Armageddon and that I am not going to allow.
I highly advise all parties concerned getting their acts together and ceasing and desisting with the self defeating rhetoric, dogmas and weaknesses while there is still time and a chance for them to do it.
Honestly Michael sounds like a bunch of defeatist thinking born of a lack of confidence and proper ambition to me.
The Shah was very friendly to Israel and quite helpful and while Persia is in Asia and not the Middle East its people are predominantly Muslim.
The Saudis, the United Arab Emirates, and the Egyptians are all openly tolerant to Israel as is Jordan.
It takes time to influence people to just the right mix. I was born in Pittsburgh which wasn’t just home to me but once upon a time before William Pitt came along home to the Miamian Tribe of Native Americans.
Today their descendants here in Miami, are actually infusing hundreds of millions of dollars into the State of Florida during its budget crisis. Of course they are getting some nice concessions in return for the money.
Once the corrupt agents got out of the way and we stopped breaking every treaty we would sign as soon as we figured out there was gold, or coal, or oil on the land we settled them on, and actually stopped persecuting them for being G-dless heathens most of the tribes which have Independent Nation Status on their Reservations are doing outstandingly well.
They no longer try to scalp us on the battlefields but in the Casinos like civilized barbarians! The hypocritical heathen Christians of course line up to get scalped with their paychecks in hand to enjoy the vices and thrills it’s silly pagan administrators would love to stamp out, much like they wanted to stamp out the Indians themselves.
If you actually employed strictly logic instead of emotional appeals twisted to seem logical the only logical conclusion you are advocating is genocide.
Whether you tacitly can admit to that, or even consciously understand that is what you are advocating that is the only logical conclusion of your arguments that there is no chance to ever make peace so the only way then peace could ever be achieved is through the Palestinians wholesale elimination and that is what the Zionists have wanted since before Israel was even founded as an Independent Nation in it’s own right, and is clearly part of and evident of the widely published Zionist manifesto of the time.
You are stuck in a self defeating spiral of circular logic based on emotion and fear and not fact.
It robs you of your humanity as well as your better judgment as well as the initiative to keep searching for solutions.
If at first you don’t succeed try, try again.
The reality is that the Jews want a homeland argument only goes so far as most Israelis don’t actually live in Israel and most Jews have never applied for citizenship under the Law of Return anyway.
If it’s really your homeland then get your behind on over there and make it home. You don’t and won’t and neither do most of the people who argue the “you can’t make peace with the animals they want to stamp out all the Jews”.
That’s a crock, they want compensated for their lost property (Just like the Jews did after the Holocaust) they want to live in real self governed, self determination not in an Israeli administered and sabotaged experiment at it. They want real economic opportunities to enjoy a quality of life and those are all things the Zionist fear. It’s that typical self fulfilling prophecy meddling of limiting Palestinian economic opportunities, and smashing their infrastructure and infiltrating their fledgling governments before they even get off the ground that makes peace impossible and Zionists claims self fulfilling prophecies.
It’s utter nonsense, the Israelis complain bitterly about the far lesser adverse affect that the Palestinians have on their safety and security than the Palestinians have to suffer of Israel’s adverse affect on their safety and security, yet there is not even a shred of empathy on the Israeli side. Though that’s not entirely true, Israelis who live in Israel do see the actual living conditions and the politics involved and many are far more tolerant and hopeful than the Jews living abroad.
One of the problems that Jews living abroad suffer, and Zionists who are often not Jewish is a lack of true perspective, you all love to site esoteric history books written to bolster your inane and insane suppositions with out actually having a ‘on the ground perspective’.
Go live in Gaza Michael and understand that these people aren’t sitting around their Rooms to Go furnished Condominiums watching Flat Screen TV’s and chatting on the Internet in a home with a refrigerator full of food or a cabinet full of medicine, or shelves full of books. Understand they live behind concrete walls ringed with automated machinegun pill boxes and have limited movement and access to the outside world. Understand that they live in cramped conditions of squalor and malnutrition devoid of the access to the Libraries, cultural events, and learning mechanisms to give them the same perspective of the Western World and it’s advantages that you and I enjoy.
You and I friend Michael are the sum total of our environments and experiences, so too are they.
The gulf between what exists in our environments and our life experiences and theirs is so huge as to be the difference between night and day.
The challenges are huge I will grant you that. The mistakes made by both sides are even bigger I will grant you that.
One side is suitably armed and properly endowed and educated to no better and be better but does not do better and chooses to convince itself there is no percentage in trying. One side is so disadvantaged as to the extent if it were a voluntary race they would be well served to not even show up to the race. Yet there they are absent all the propaganda, stuck behind those walls, with those machine guns trained on them, living in absolute squalor absent almost everything you and I take for granted to form our realities and perspectives.
I am not interested in the feeble excuses, or the canned rhetoric, or the paranoia, or the self defeating perspective as it serves no purpose and has no positive outcome. It is infectious thinking for the weak minded and uninspired, the lazy and indifferent.
Charity based arguments are pathetic, and all ultimately most of these arguments boil down to, is in ‘our collective estimation we believe we are entitled too because of…’ malarkey is all I have to say. You reap what you sew in the world, and Israel ignores what it sews at it’s own peril.
By your own admission it is a fool’s endeavor because the numbers are ultimately stacked against you.
Which is why well intentioned but ignorant third party interlopers with no vested standing other than notions of solidarity born of religion or race weigh in heavily and constantly imagining they are doing the right thing by creating a vast united front to advocate something that’s JUST AS STUPID AS THE DAY IS LONG.
If it’s your homeland, get your butt on home! If it’s not understand it is a Nation not a church, not a genetic breeding ground as I really think Sammy Davis Jr. wasn’t from around there, and neither was just about everyone else living in modern day Israel.
If the Jews who continue to voluntarily live in Diaspora for economic, political and regional reasons got off their collective butts and actually went over there to live, not for a romantic “I am here mom picture moment’ holiday but to actually live and actually saw it they wouldn’t be so naively or callously indifferent to it.
I honestly don’t care what goes on in England or Poland my ancestral ‘Homeland’ because Miami is my home, just like Toronto is yours.
I honestly don’t care that much about the plight of the Palestinians or the Jews, but I really do care that the Jews have been suckered into behaving this way as it is this type of behavior that is going to lead to another self fulfilling prophecy called Armageddon and that I am not going to allow.
I highly advise all parties concerned getting their acts together and ceasing and desisting with the self defeating rhetoric, dogmas and weaknesses while there is still time and a chance for them to do it.
Your pleas for humane treatment of others and fairness are understood and agreed with. But as usual you select your examples and compose a version of
events that accommodates your beliefs, and ignore whatever aspects conflict.
The initial basis of the population of Israel largely came from something like 850,000 Jews who for centuries lived in Muslim dominated countries from Morocco as far as Iran and onward. When the amassed Arab countries were defeated in their attempt to extinguish the newborn Israel in 1948, these people were given 48 hours to pack their bags and leave.
They went to Israel. They did not sit in border camps appealing to the UN, demand compensation for their losses, claim disenfranchisement and appeal for sympathy.
You pretend this didn’t happen. It causes cognitive dissonance. These people are forgotten because they don't add into your equation of grasping thieving Jews.
Nor do you want to deal with the hard reality that the Palestinians are Muslims in a world where there are one and a half billion Muslims. All dead set against a Jewish state, all supportive with words and weapons for the Palestinian cause. But give them a home as immigrants - forget it.
I too wish there was a satisfactory and productive resolution for the Palestinians. I wish their leadership had worked towards it. Yasser Arafat created the Palestinian cause in 1967 when the Arab genocidal war failed. Before they were people caught in limbo in territories controlled by Egypt and Jordan. They didn't want a new state then. Only when it meant fighting Jews did they want a state.
The bad management of Yasser Arafat, working self-servingly, was highlighted in 1991. You opened a newspaper and saw on the front page a smiling Arafat arm in arm with Saddam Hussein in their photo op war with the US coalition. A forgotten moment in history - Palestinians at war with the US.
Your efforts to extend the conflict to a world Jewry one suits your purposes and are probably sincerely felt. But you betray your sincerity by refusing to also extend the Palestinian cause to the larger Muslim world agenda.
You talk about compassion and fairness while dealing pragmatically with historical occurrences that still resonate. You really mean these things.
But you edit history mercilessly to highlight the examples that work for you. This is the method of bad science and bad history. Decide on your conclusion, work backwards and select factoids that proves it.
Hard to characterize Jewish states in the Middle East. We have no previous or parallel models for comparison.
I don't want to digress too far, but there was a study of English and other European powers and their behaviour with the colonized local populations in the Caribbean. The predictable brutal, unsympathetic, exploitive profiles. Interestingly, there was one single island - damn, forget it's name - that the Irish colonized. And you know what - brutal, unsympathetic, and exploitive.
The situation in the Sinai today is hellish for all. And unnecessary. You refuse to see it as a component of the Muslim intolerance, inability to deal with population shifts, cultural change, compromise. Coming to terms with the present.
That is the problem.
But you prefer railing on about those terrible Jews. Your charm, eloquence, wit are are appreciated. But in the end you think you have the answers and are as intractable as those you criticize.
Mike
[edit on 5-9-2009 by mmiichael]
The initial basis of the population of Israel largely came from something like 850,000 Jews who for centuries lived in Muslim dominated countries from Morocco as far as Iran and onward. When the amassed Arab countries were defeated in their attempt to extinguish the newborn Israel in 1948, these people were given 48 hours to pack their bags and leave.
They went to Israel. They did not sit in border camps appealing to the UN, demand compensation for their losses, claim disenfranchisement and appeal for sympathy.
You pretend this didn’t happen. It causes cognitive dissonance. These people are forgotten because they don't add into your equation of grasping thieving Jews.
Nor do you want to deal with the hard reality that the Palestinians are Muslims in a world where there are one and a half billion Muslims. All dead set against a Jewish state, all supportive with words and weapons for the Palestinian cause. But give them a home as immigrants - forget it.
I too wish there was a satisfactory and productive resolution for the Palestinians. I wish their leadership had worked towards it. Yasser Arafat created the Palestinian cause in 1967 when the Arab genocidal war failed. Before they were people caught in limbo in territories controlled by Egypt and Jordan. They didn't want a new state then. Only when it meant fighting Jews did they want a state.
The bad management of Yasser Arafat, working self-servingly, was highlighted in 1991. You opened a newspaper and saw on the front page a smiling Arafat arm in arm with Saddam Hussein in their photo op war with the US coalition. A forgotten moment in history - Palestinians at war with the US.
Your efforts to extend the conflict to a world Jewry one suits your purposes and are probably sincerely felt. But you betray your sincerity by refusing to also extend the Palestinian cause to the larger Muslim world agenda.
You talk about compassion and fairness while dealing pragmatically with historical occurrences that still resonate. You really mean these things.
But you edit history mercilessly to highlight the examples that work for you. This is the method of bad science and bad history. Decide on your conclusion, work backwards and select factoids that proves it.
Hard to characterize Jewish states in the Middle East. We have no previous or parallel models for comparison.
I don't want to digress too far, but there was a study of English and other European powers and their behaviour with the colonized local populations in the Caribbean. The predictable brutal, unsympathetic, exploitive profiles. Interestingly, there was one single island - damn, forget it's name - that the Irish colonized. And you know what - brutal, unsympathetic, and exploitive.
The situation in the Sinai today is hellish for all. And unnecessary. You refuse to see it as a component of the Muslim intolerance, inability to deal with population shifts, cultural change, compromise. Coming to terms with the present.
That is the problem.
But you prefer railing on about those terrible Jews. Your charm, eloquence, wit are are appreciated. But in the end you think you have the answers and are as intractable as those you criticize.
Mike
[edit on 5-9-2009 by mmiichael]
reply to post by mmiichael
Personally Michael I would rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the Saints and the Jews are no better or worse than the Palestinians or any other people for that matter.
The only thing truly terrible is the infamous ‘Terrible Towel’ wielded by Pittsburgh Steelers fans to an unprecedented six Super Bowl Titles sponsored by Coca Cola®.
Coke and the National Football League meant to go together.
Kind of like Jews and Israel meant to go together. Unfortunately for both they are simply meant to go together because Rome and it’s Zionist cronies and henchmen mean for them to go together for a purpose not in the individual Jew’s or Israel’s benefit.
There really is a conspiracy afoot Michael and has been for oh going on 2,000 years. There are no coincidences or accidents in life. Rome’s plan is sound and doable and workable and working.
Can you not see the rising tide as you rush about sticking one finger after another in one leaking dyke after another?
Management in Israel, Zionist management in Israel is causing mounting and major public relations disaster that its own errant actions purposefully contrived for that effect are eventually going to cause a tide of biblical proportions against the Israeli state and the Jews.
Its why now is the time for a radical departure from business as usual, because while business as usual might be lucrative for the Military Industrial Complex, the Oil Companies and the Corporation known as Israel’s coffers it’s not good for the Jews man!
If you actually were honest about the entire Hebrew history in the Middle East you would in fact understand that they were and are spread all over for a reason. That reason being Jerusalem meant next to nothing to them before Rome devised its plan for conquest of the world and the tribal elders agreed to go along with it. The tribes have been in and out of every community and dynasty from the southern Mediterranean throughout Egypt all the way to Mesopotamia and have always wandered to where the opportunities are best and most lucrative just like they do today.
Israel and Jerusalem is really nothing but a place to plant a flag for one nasty battle of King of the Hill that ultimately the Jews, Muslims and Christians all loose in.
Yet the plan is entirely dependent upon moving the emotional compass of the unwashed masses to that tipping point of turning against the Israeli State and fighting over it, and it’s existence to the bitter death.
It’s only a chunk of dessert Michael. It’s a silly game fueled by arrogance and greed and desire on all sides of the equation and battle lines.
Ultimately Rome at this rate will have its way. If you weren’t so emotionally attached to the situation you would see far clearer the disastrous effects of Zionist policy and governorship are having. You would see that the only thing keeping most parties to the conflict engaged is vanity and counterproductive lust. There is no gold, no water, no minerals, not even a decent nude beach in the whole place and lets face it the best Olives come from Andalusia, Spain.
The United States and the CIA and the Military Industrial Complex is only exploiting the situation and trying to turn what was a situation that had come up lemons into lemonade by profiting eternally off of the conflict by empowering and enabling the policies that lead to keeping the conflict festering because it is highly profitable monetarily to them.
At the moment peak oil truly comes and goes, and it’s truly coming and going, they will light that whole area up like a Christmas tree to rob the entire indigenous population of the wealth it garnered off of the oil trade and Israel right along with it.
Really Michael it amazes me a person of your vast intelligence and profound wisdom can’t come to terms with how things really are. I know it sucks and it’s disheartening but all the good intentions in the world simply don’t add up to a can of beans when it’s the wrong strategy.
The Zionists and Elders have already been paid, the money’s in the bank, and they can and will safely walk away when it all comes down, knowing they still have a 5th column in almost every nation on the planet, and having only lost a heap of sand and a few million people they have already marked as slaves and chattel anyway, Jewish or not.
There is the game, and then there is their game the way they would like you to play for them to win, but what they intend to win is ultimately not what you intend to win or is it?
I think not. I think you’re a decent human being who just has love in your heart and wants good things for everyone and like most human beings you simply lack the tools and the path towards that end. So you blindly trust and follow others you feel an allegiance to.
I have neither allegiance nor agenda save defeating Rome and a one world Government at the cost of so much suffering and so many lives.
Yes it’s true most are simply paying their karmic debt in the grand scheme of things but with the New Age approaching its time to get as many people off the Karmic wheel as possible and evolved towards what comes next in their growth and advancement as human beings.
How are you going to do that playing with the sand rats doing the very same things you despise in them?
Inquiring minds would love to know!
The Jews aren’t bad people Michael, they are simply gullible and naïve and suffer from the same vanities and character flaws as everyone else does.
The Zionists simply have them all hoodwinked and if you look real hard they did it through terror and fear and instilling a self defeating paranoia that serves the Jews horribly.
In the end if they can not rise above it there is no discernable distinction between those they decry and themselves.
Birds of a feather flock together Michael and I think the pigeons need to fly that old coup and turn into higher flying doves.
I am looking out for everyone’s best interest.
My first White Collar job after getting out of music, I showed up to work early every day and stayed late every night and worked Saturdays too determined to succeed at it.
Every day when I showed up for work my boss would descend on me and ream me out left and right for the mistakes I had made the day before and or the opportunities I failed to completely capitalize on.
It never failed, it didn’t matter how productive I was or becoming, or how well I was performing, he would find something and critique it and denounce it and attempt to correct it.
After about 8 months of enduring this every day I had gone from being a novice with little practical knowledge and little productivity to actually exceeding the combined productivity of every other employee and possessed more knowledge than every other employee combined.
Yet still every morning I got my butt chewed out.
Finally at about a year into my daily reaming my boss saw the look in my eye and said it for me. Yes you are wondering why when you are so much more productive and efficient than everyone else, even everyone else combined why you get chewed out everyday. He looked at me and simply said, they aren’t worth the time, they don’t have the capacity to learn, they are what they are, they can and will only go as far as they are at and no further. You on the other hand are just like me, your capacity to learn and adapt and change is endless and when I started out in this business my boss treated me the same way I have treated you until the day, which is this day, when there is not one more thing I can share that I know that you don’t know.
From that day on the roles reversed though he was the boss in name as I continued to learn and achieve independent of his own skill set I assumed the superior role and he the inferior one.
I am only on top of those who have such a capacity to learn for the same reasons Michael.
The endeavor is failing, the approaches and strategies need modified, new tactics need to be developed and employed. Ultimately like any business or enterprise or empire when it fails to adapt and innovate and continually reach it’s objectives, it stagnates, contracts, regresses and then collapses.
The Zionists actually want that to happen, and for the world to turn against Israel and the Jews in the meantime.
Wishful thinking will not stop that from happening. Maintaining a poor status quo will not stop that from happening.
Ignoring reality will not stop that from happening.
From where I sit, detached, emotionally uninvolved, the writing is clearly on the wall and the die already cast.
If I really wanted to succeed I would be making some corrections and course adjustments at this point, and realizing simply convincing others at any and all costs that your right won’t make you in fact right, nor give you the right outcome.
The Arabs truly are the least of your worries, give them a feast and a festival they will entertain themselves to the cows come home.
The Zionists are the threat, Rome is the threat, and ultimately one’s own ignorance and vanity is the threat.
Personally Michael I would rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the Saints and the Jews are no better or worse than the Palestinians or any other people for that matter.
The only thing truly terrible is the infamous ‘Terrible Towel’ wielded by Pittsburgh Steelers fans to an unprecedented six Super Bowl Titles sponsored by Coca Cola®.
Coke and the National Football League meant to go together.
Kind of like Jews and Israel meant to go together. Unfortunately for both they are simply meant to go together because Rome and it’s Zionist cronies and henchmen mean for them to go together for a purpose not in the individual Jew’s or Israel’s benefit.
There really is a conspiracy afoot Michael and has been for oh going on 2,000 years. There are no coincidences or accidents in life. Rome’s plan is sound and doable and workable and working.
Can you not see the rising tide as you rush about sticking one finger after another in one leaking dyke after another?
Management in Israel, Zionist management in Israel is causing mounting and major public relations disaster that its own errant actions purposefully contrived for that effect are eventually going to cause a tide of biblical proportions against the Israeli state and the Jews.
Its why now is the time for a radical departure from business as usual, because while business as usual might be lucrative for the Military Industrial Complex, the Oil Companies and the Corporation known as Israel’s coffers it’s not good for the Jews man!
If you actually were honest about the entire Hebrew history in the Middle East you would in fact understand that they were and are spread all over for a reason. That reason being Jerusalem meant next to nothing to them before Rome devised its plan for conquest of the world and the tribal elders agreed to go along with it. The tribes have been in and out of every community and dynasty from the southern Mediterranean throughout Egypt all the way to Mesopotamia and have always wandered to where the opportunities are best and most lucrative just like they do today.
Israel and Jerusalem is really nothing but a place to plant a flag for one nasty battle of King of the Hill that ultimately the Jews, Muslims and Christians all loose in.
Yet the plan is entirely dependent upon moving the emotional compass of the unwashed masses to that tipping point of turning against the Israeli State and fighting over it, and it’s existence to the bitter death.
It’s only a chunk of dessert Michael. It’s a silly game fueled by arrogance and greed and desire on all sides of the equation and battle lines.
Ultimately Rome at this rate will have its way. If you weren’t so emotionally attached to the situation you would see far clearer the disastrous effects of Zionist policy and governorship are having. You would see that the only thing keeping most parties to the conflict engaged is vanity and counterproductive lust. There is no gold, no water, no minerals, not even a decent nude beach in the whole place and lets face it the best Olives come from Andalusia, Spain.
The United States and the CIA and the Military Industrial Complex is only exploiting the situation and trying to turn what was a situation that had come up lemons into lemonade by profiting eternally off of the conflict by empowering and enabling the policies that lead to keeping the conflict festering because it is highly profitable monetarily to them.
At the moment peak oil truly comes and goes, and it’s truly coming and going, they will light that whole area up like a Christmas tree to rob the entire indigenous population of the wealth it garnered off of the oil trade and Israel right along with it.
Really Michael it amazes me a person of your vast intelligence and profound wisdom can’t come to terms with how things really are. I know it sucks and it’s disheartening but all the good intentions in the world simply don’t add up to a can of beans when it’s the wrong strategy.
The Zionists and Elders have already been paid, the money’s in the bank, and they can and will safely walk away when it all comes down, knowing they still have a 5th column in almost every nation on the planet, and having only lost a heap of sand and a few million people they have already marked as slaves and chattel anyway, Jewish or not.
There is the game, and then there is their game the way they would like you to play for them to win, but what they intend to win is ultimately not what you intend to win or is it?
I think not. I think you’re a decent human being who just has love in your heart and wants good things for everyone and like most human beings you simply lack the tools and the path towards that end. So you blindly trust and follow others you feel an allegiance to.
I have neither allegiance nor agenda save defeating Rome and a one world Government at the cost of so much suffering and so many lives.
Yes it’s true most are simply paying their karmic debt in the grand scheme of things but with the New Age approaching its time to get as many people off the Karmic wheel as possible and evolved towards what comes next in their growth and advancement as human beings.
How are you going to do that playing with the sand rats doing the very same things you despise in them?
Inquiring minds would love to know!
The Jews aren’t bad people Michael, they are simply gullible and naïve and suffer from the same vanities and character flaws as everyone else does.
The Zionists simply have them all hoodwinked and if you look real hard they did it through terror and fear and instilling a self defeating paranoia that serves the Jews horribly.
In the end if they can not rise above it there is no discernable distinction between those they decry and themselves.
Birds of a feather flock together Michael and I think the pigeons need to fly that old coup and turn into higher flying doves.
I am looking out for everyone’s best interest.
My first White Collar job after getting out of music, I showed up to work early every day and stayed late every night and worked Saturdays too determined to succeed at it.
Every day when I showed up for work my boss would descend on me and ream me out left and right for the mistakes I had made the day before and or the opportunities I failed to completely capitalize on.
It never failed, it didn’t matter how productive I was or becoming, or how well I was performing, he would find something and critique it and denounce it and attempt to correct it.
After about 8 months of enduring this every day I had gone from being a novice with little practical knowledge and little productivity to actually exceeding the combined productivity of every other employee and possessed more knowledge than every other employee combined.
Yet still every morning I got my butt chewed out.
Finally at about a year into my daily reaming my boss saw the look in my eye and said it for me. Yes you are wondering why when you are so much more productive and efficient than everyone else, even everyone else combined why you get chewed out everyday. He looked at me and simply said, they aren’t worth the time, they don’t have the capacity to learn, they are what they are, they can and will only go as far as they are at and no further. You on the other hand are just like me, your capacity to learn and adapt and change is endless and when I started out in this business my boss treated me the same way I have treated you until the day, which is this day, when there is not one more thing I can share that I know that you don’t know.
From that day on the roles reversed though he was the boss in name as I continued to learn and achieve independent of his own skill set I assumed the superior role and he the inferior one.
I am only on top of those who have such a capacity to learn for the same reasons Michael.
The endeavor is failing, the approaches and strategies need modified, new tactics need to be developed and employed. Ultimately like any business or enterprise or empire when it fails to adapt and innovate and continually reach it’s objectives, it stagnates, contracts, regresses and then collapses.
The Zionists actually want that to happen, and for the world to turn against Israel and the Jews in the meantime.
Wishful thinking will not stop that from happening. Maintaining a poor status quo will not stop that from happening.
Ignoring reality will not stop that from happening.
From where I sit, detached, emotionally uninvolved, the writing is clearly on the wall and the die already cast.
If I really wanted to succeed I would be making some corrections and course adjustments at this point, and realizing simply convincing others at any and all costs that your right won’t make you in fact right, nor give you the right outcome.
The Arabs truly are the least of your worries, give them a feast and a festival they will entertain themselves to the cows come home.
The Zionists are the threat, Rome is the threat, and ultimately one’s own ignorance and vanity is the threat.
And I continue to debate with you Proty, because you have the reasoning ability, the decency, the compassion, the heart, but also the intellect to
understand paradigm shifts are called for in order to move forward.
I hate all this beckoning of past history – but the parties involved refuse to let go of it.
1947. The Muslims eminently made it clear when the vote came in the UN that despite controlling 99.5% of the region, the entire population except for the once prevalent Christians and scattered Jews, that Jews actually having a sliver of their own land was intolerable. No discussion, they had todestroy it the day it happened. And really not much deviation from that since. Even though 1.5 million Muslims are also Israeli citizens and despite class struggle enjoy a quality of life and freedoms that 80% of their Muslim brethren do. Muslims can co-habit with Jews.
But for the leaders it was no Jewish state, Period. How’s that for a foreign policy?
Your Rome controlling behind the scenes explanation carries some weight. But it only is good as narrowing things down to a single factor goes. World events, internationalism, macroeconomics, diverse populations in the millions, produce fragmented multiple interests that don’t breaks down to single causes.
Quite frankly, Israel shouldn’t matter on a world scale. Tiny, not much population, no resources, more trouble than it’s worth. There is a wealth concentration, but it’s not that enormous, not that tied to the land, and is transportable. The Muslim counterparts are fixed to the oil beneath there feet for those lucky enough in the geological lottery.
The Muslim world can’t accept that there’s a state of Israel. That 75% of the population are Jews. People not monsters. There for good - it’s their home now. It would be so much more beneficial for everyone in the region to come to terms with this change.
Israel does attempt to put past differences aside in the hope of moving forward. The Muslim world and the Palestinians are fixated on moving backward. Change is a bad word. Compromise is a word that doesn’t exist. Killing the source is a solution for what you don’t want.
Why is this a prime concern for people on the other side of the planet? The well concealed Rome which I think is more in your fevered imagination than in tangible form, can get on very well if the entire strip of land is obliterated. They can then dig up the ancient ruins and make a tourist theme park on top of it, like the remnants of the Acropolis and classical Greece in Athens.
But Muslim concerns have become world concerns. They supply the oil that lubricates civilization's machinery. They like the money and the attention. Self-esteem issues, We must humour them and their tribalistic squabbles.
They’re not a happy bunch. They see where they are and how much respect they actually command on the world stage. They haven’t gotten over their lost centuries. In that period the Western world fought with each other, but also benefited from separating themselves from their religion enough to foster mass education, cultivate technology, implement systems of transportation, representative governance. They advanced.
The Muslims remained in some miasmic Middle ages with their Holy Koran as a guide to coping. They did not develop the self-awareness and philosophies that come with accelerated change, increased tolerance, the spirit of co-operation.
The interloping Jews, not knowing what they were in for, in hindsight shouldn’t have been so sentimentally/religiously attached to the Biblical site, Jerusalem. They were moving into a bad neigbourhood an the nadtives were restless.
It seemed like a living fantasy, in their historical homeland. Back to the roots of mankind, farming, irrigating, and fighting the elements to survive.
They wouldn’t have thought of developing a war machine, the technologies, the softwares, the espionage networks, and the war infrastructure, had they been left alone. But the Arabs went bananas. Jews were on their home turf. Though millions of Arabs have no trouble emigrating to Christian countries. They feel entitled.
The thought of a bunch of Jews actually running their own show and doing well at it – infuriated them. Even worse, their unsuccessful aggregate wars were a disaster – humiliated them.
Yes, we know now there were ways to de-escalate the tensions and the conflicts that the Israelis did not pick up on. Everyone makes gross judgement errors at some time. You hopefully learn it time. General Motors didn’t see their doom when the Japanese cars showed up in showrooms across America. They never got it.
All hindsight.
But the Muslim world has not given an inch. In fact they’ve hardened their position in the 60 years and will accept no solution less than a Final Solution for their Jewish Problem.
They’re furious, really angry with themselves. Humiliated by their own inability to improve their lot in life. Dare I say failure? So they chose to hate. It’s something they’ve learned to do well. In their literature and for too many, in their heart. You may, but I don’t buy their hand-wringing and crocodile tears. Sorry.
I’m sorry we disagree on this matter.
You’re smarter than me, far more articulate, have a deeper philosophical inclination.
I am a simpleton. Intolerant of destructiveness and self-destructiveness.
Mike
[edit on 5-9-2009 by mmiichael]
I hate all this beckoning of past history – but the parties involved refuse to let go of it.
1947. The Muslims eminently made it clear when the vote came in the UN that despite controlling 99.5% of the region, the entire population except for the once prevalent Christians and scattered Jews, that Jews actually having a sliver of their own land was intolerable. No discussion, they had todestroy it the day it happened. And really not much deviation from that since. Even though 1.5 million Muslims are also Israeli citizens and despite class struggle enjoy a quality of life and freedoms that 80% of their Muslim brethren do. Muslims can co-habit with Jews.
But for the leaders it was no Jewish state, Period. How’s that for a foreign policy?
Your Rome controlling behind the scenes explanation carries some weight. But it only is good as narrowing things down to a single factor goes. World events, internationalism, macroeconomics, diverse populations in the millions, produce fragmented multiple interests that don’t breaks down to single causes.
Quite frankly, Israel shouldn’t matter on a world scale. Tiny, not much population, no resources, more trouble than it’s worth. There is a wealth concentration, but it’s not that enormous, not that tied to the land, and is transportable. The Muslim counterparts are fixed to the oil beneath there feet for those lucky enough in the geological lottery.
The Muslim world can’t accept that there’s a state of Israel. That 75% of the population are Jews. People not monsters. There for good - it’s their home now. It would be so much more beneficial for everyone in the region to come to terms with this change.
Israel does attempt to put past differences aside in the hope of moving forward. The Muslim world and the Palestinians are fixated on moving backward. Change is a bad word. Compromise is a word that doesn’t exist. Killing the source is a solution for what you don’t want.
Why is this a prime concern for people on the other side of the planet? The well concealed Rome which I think is more in your fevered imagination than in tangible form, can get on very well if the entire strip of land is obliterated. They can then dig up the ancient ruins and make a tourist theme park on top of it, like the remnants of the Acropolis and classical Greece in Athens.
But Muslim concerns have become world concerns. They supply the oil that lubricates civilization's machinery. They like the money and the attention. Self-esteem issues, We must humour them and their tribalistic squabbles.
They’re not a happy bunch. They see where they are and how much respect they actually command on the world stage. They haven’t gotten over their lost centuries. In that period the Western world fought with each other, but also benefited from separating themselves from their religion enough to foster mass education, cultivate technology, implement systems of transportation, representative governance. They advanced.
The Muslims remained in some miasmic Middle ages with their Holy Koran as a guide to coping. They did not develop the self-awareness and philosophies that come with accelerated change, increased tolerance, the spirit of co-operation.
The interloping Jews, not knowing what they were in for, in hindsight shouldn’t have been so sentimentally/religiously attached to the Biblical site, Jerusalem. They were moving into a bad neigbourhood an the nadtives were restless.
It seemed like a living fantasy, in their historical homeland. Back to the roots of mankind, farming, irrigating, and fighting the elements to survive.
They wouldn’t have thought of developing a war machine, the technologies, the softwares, the espionage networks, and the war infrastructure, had they been left alone. But the Arabs went bananas. Jews were on their home turf. Though millions of Arabs have no trouble emigrating to Christian countries. They feel entitled.
The thought of a bunch of Jews actually running their own show and doing well at it – infuriated them. Even worse, their unsuccessful aggregate wars were a disaster – humiliated them.
Yes, we know now there were ways to de-escalate the tensions and the conflicts that the Israelis did not pick up on. Everyone makes gross judgement errors at some time. You hopefully learn it time. General Motors didn’t see their doom when the Japanese cars showed up in showrooms across America. They never got it.
All hindsight.
But the Muslim world has not given an inch. In fact they’ve hardened their position in the 60 years and will accept no solution less than a Final Solution for their Jewish Problem.
They’re furious, really angry with themselves. Humiliated by their own inability to improve their lot in life. Dare I say failure? So they chose to hate. It’s something they’ve learned to do well. In their literature and for too many, in their heart. You may, but I don’t buy their hand-wringing and crocodile tears. Sorry.
I’m sorry we disagree on this matter.
You’re smarter than me, far more articulate, have a deeper philosophical inclination.
I am a simpleton. Intolerant of destructiveness and self-destructiveness.
Mike
[edit on 5-9-2009 by mmiichael]
reply to post by mmiichael
This is what you might not get about Rome’s particular brand of divide and conquers warfare Michael it is designed to accentuate and exploit cultural, ideological, philosophical, racial and spiritual differences.
The introduction of faith based religions that lock their adherents into precast pseudo religious and pseudo political mindsets has a debilitating impact on the logical thought process.
Let’s look at our last Hyksos Pharaoh aka Moses. This is the last time the Hebrew believes any one of them legitimately spoke with their Lord and G-d. Now let’s meander on over to Rome and the good baby Jesus and this is the last time any of the Christians believe anyone legitimately spoke to the same Lord and G-d even though the Hebrews don’t buy that he did. Now lets mosey on over to Saudi Arabia and Mohamed and this is the last time the Muslim’s believe anyone legitimately talked to same said Lord and G-d and of course they imagine just as the Christians do, just as the Hebrews do that they are correct.
The Muslims more or less understand how Rome fabricated the Christian religion for political purposes and see and take it pretty much for what it is. I am guessing this because recently the Taliban made a direct appeal to the Pope to stop the attempts to convert Muslims to Christianity in Afghanistan which everyone in the west thought was strange that they would be threatening and appealing to the Pope on this as opposed to the President of the United States.
The Muslims though believe the Hebrews broke their covenant with G-d.
Now honestly I haven’t seen said covenant or know what was in said covenant to say this is true or not true but suffice to say the Muslims believe it and for some strange reason it really upsets them.
Back in 1982 Michael I was watching a special on PBS shot in Afghanistan on the War with the Soviets. The reporter was interviewing a 12 year old boy who had just been shot and mortally wounded in a firefight with the Soviets.
The reporter asked him to share what happened as he lay sprawled out on the porch of his canyon top home made out of stone that had no running water or electricity that towered on the edge of a gorge. The boy said he had gone down the gorge as he did every day to fetch water for the house and family and discovered three Soviet Soldiers there and opened fire on them with his AK-47 killing two and wounding the third that wounded him with his return fire before both fled. He knew he was dying and despite his wounds was serene and calm and said. “The Pakistanis have many guns but they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, the American’s have many more guns than the Pakistanis and they do not fight the Soviets either and this is bad, here in Afghanistan we have few guns but we fight the Soviets and this is good, in Pakistan they have many tanks but they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, in America they have even many more tanks than in Pakistan but they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, in Afghanistan we have no tanks but we fight the Soviets and this is good, in Pakistan they have many planes but they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, in American they have even many more planes yet they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, here in Afghanistan we have no planes yet we fight the Soviets and this is good, I fight the Soviets and this is good, I have died fighting the Soviets and this is good” and then he died Michael, right there on camera, just like that. Talk about reality TV and it occurred to me as I fought back my sadness this kid and that’s all he was, was a kid, never was inside a 7-11, never read a Playboy or Rolling Stone magazine, never had a roll of toilet paper, watched the Evening News with Walter Cronkite or been to a Movie.
I realized he was nothing but a sum total of his environment of his world, which was a stone hut, a simple family, a nearby river, some nearby fields, the Koran and that was it.
Most of the Islamic world lives in similar conditions, far below the poverty line, semi-literate but literate only in religious scripture, often living in near total poverty in cramped and squalid conditions and more often than not it’s because of how their corrupt leaders wish for them to live.
Religion is the Opium of the masses, and for the poor, for the uneducated and undereducated it is the only thing that offers them hope for the future, not even for a future in this life, but a future in the next life, the after life, so they go through this life, doing what they are told adhering to their scriptures that are used as little more than a control cult for political purposes.
The horrific thing is that they have been so indoctrinated to it, that in 9,999 out of a 1,000 cases you can not take it away from them even with promises or gifts of wealth or other substitutes because they have been taught to shun those things in order to gain their heavenly reward and they have been taught to believe it is their eternal soul and not their earthly soul they should give primary attention to.
Education is not the answer because you can’t defeat circular faith based logic through education. You can’t substitute another brand of circular faith based logic for it because they already have been taught there is no substitute for their faith based circular logic and they risk their eternal souls by doing this.
It’s a perfect catch 22 situations and cry all you like but the Hebrews are as responsible for it as Rome is. The pre-Caesar, pre-Christ Hebrew/Habiru/Hapiri were not adherents to monoecism they had G-ds not a G-d and the Cuneiforms and Scrolls and Treaties from Egypt, Babylon and Assyria prove it. The Romans likewise were not into monotheism either until they seized on the Christ Cult for control purposes. I don’t believe for a second the Hebrew Elders have ever revealed the actual name of their Lord and that’s why they never name him and spell G-d, G-d. That doesn’t mean the Hebrew themselves don’t believe in the one Lord that their Elders named for the Christians.
There was no Yahweh in anyone’s pantheon of G-ds in the region there was though a Yawishew in the Canaanite Pantheon who was the Patron G-d of Mercenaries and Pirates.
I truly believe that after the Hyksos Dynasty in Egypt fell the Hapiri migrated into Canaan set up shop in Jerusalem while Rome was slowly growing as a small Kingdom and then Republic along the Tiber. When Caesar realized just how vast the world was and it would be impossible to conquer in one lifetime that either he or Octavian reached out to the Hapiri for the money to keep the expansion going and the Hapiri liked the plan and sacrificed Jerusalem for it to work in order to give credence to the One G-d notion. They went back to Baghdad where they had strong ties while they waited for Rome to begin to implement the Cult. As Roman and Christian Arms would put down Pagans the Hebrews simply came in behind to set up the banking and provide credence to the notion that Jesus was real by being something visible for the pagans to see from that part of the world. They were perfect for the role, they stood out, were different, were quirky, and highly identifiable because they were highly visible in their stark differences to how the local indigenous people’s dressed, ate, danced, etc., etc. At the same time they provided a great target for Rome to scapegoat from time to time, they killed Christ! They will eat your babies, you must believe in the Lord and look to him for your salvation. Of course the nobles that they extended to much credit to would sometimes just kill them rather than pay them back, and in many ways the Roman Bible which frowned on the practice of usury gave them an exclusive franchise on money lending which would have been very attractive to the Hebrew leadership and the wealthier Hebrews themselves. They could afford to take the chance of giving up Jerusalem as a base of operations in part because they had traditionally always wandered anyway and in part because it was written right into the Roman scriptures that it would be eventually returned to them. It was too when all the first nations people of the world were put down and Roman Contract Law and Hebrew Banking was the accepted norm everywhere on the globe. The Vatican handed over its money to Rothschild, debt paid in full, land returned. The Royals from the Empire scattered about primarily in England, but in Spain, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Lichtenstein, Monaco all got to keep their wealth as Caesars in their own right. All of them tied together through the Holy Roman Empire and the Roman Empire, all of them owing their wealth, land and titles to it.
Corporations like the United States all play their part. Yet in the end to complete the conquest the trio of religions based on the one G-d concept of heaven and hell have to be stamped out because they do create nothing but catch 22 circular logic conditions and situations.
So Jerusalem will be sacrificed once more to this end and most of the Hebrews there as well which because none of them actually know the name of their Lord or exactly what the religion is about anyway and most of them have been marked as slaves anyway (drop your pants and check and see) are all expendable to the Elders of the Tribes that own them and the Zionists they are partnered with in Rome. Like the Nobles and Royals they get to keep their money and prestige moving into the next age with power and influence.
Yes you are right the Muslims aren’t going to tolerate a Hebrew presence in the Middle East because of what the Muslims have been taught, but what they have been taught all stems from the same Hebrew/Roman plot worked out by the Pharisees and the Emperor to deceive the masses of all three cults.
In the end it’s just business to them.
This is what you might not get about Rome’s particular brand of divide and conquers warfare Michael it is designed to accentuate and exploit cultural, ideological, philosophical, racial and spiritual differences.
The introduction of faith based religions that lock their adherents into precast pseudo religious and pseudo political mindsets has a debilitating impact on the logical thought process.
Let’s look at our last Hyksos Pharaoh aka Moses. This is the last time the Hebrew believes any one of them legitimately spoke with their Lord and G-d. Now let’s meander on over to Rome and the good baby Jesus and this is the last time any of the Christians believe anyone legitimately spoke to the same Lord and G-d even though the Hebrews don’t buy that he did. Now lets mosey on over to Saudi Arabia and Mohamed and this is the last time the Muslim’s believe anyone legitimately talked to same said Lord and G-d and of course they imagine just as the Christians do, just as the Hebrews do that they are correct.
The Muslims more or less understand how Rome fabricated the Christian religion for political purposes and see and take it pretty much for what it is. I am guessing this because recently the Taliban made a direct appeal to the Pope to stop the attempts to convert Muslims to Christianity in Afghanistan which everyone in the west thought was strange that they would be threatening and appealing to the Pope on this as opposed to the President of the United States.
The Muslims though believe the Hebrews broke their covenant with G-d.
Now honestly I haven’t seen said covenant or know what was in said covenant to say this is true or not true but suffice to say the Muslims believe it and for some strange reason it really upsets them.
Back in 1982 Michael I was watching a special on PBS shot in Afghanistan on the War with the Soviets. The reporter was interviewing a 12 year old boy who had just been shot and mortally wounded in a firefight with the Soviets.
The reporter asked him to share what happened as he lay sprawled out on the porch of his canyon top home made out of stone that had no running water or electricity that towered on the edge of a gorge. The boy said he had gone down the gorge as he did every day to fetch water for the house and family and discovered three Soviet Soldiers there and opened fire on them with his AK-47 killing two and wounding the third that wounded him with his return fire before both fled. He knew he was dying and despite his wounds was serene and calm and said. “The Pakistanis have many guns but they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, the American’s have many more guns than the Pakistanis and they do not fight the Soviets either and this is bad, here in Afghanistan we have few guns but we fight the Soviets and this is good, in Pakistan they have many tanks but they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, in America they have even many more tanks than in Pakistan but they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, in Afghanistan we have no tanks but we fight the Soviets and this is good, in Pakistan they have many planes but they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, in American they have even many more planes yet they do not fight the Soviets and this is bad, here in Afghanistan we have no planes yet we fight the Soviets and this is good, I fight the Soviets and this is good, I have died fighting the Soviets and this is good” and then he died Michael, right there on camera, just like that. Talk about reality TV and it occurred to me as I fought back my sadness this kid and that’s all he was, was a kid, never was inside a 7-11, never read a Playboy or Rolling Stone magazine, never had a roll of toilet paper, watched the Evening News with Walter Cronkite or been to a Movie.
I realized he was nothing but a sum total of his environment of his world, which was a stone hut, a simple family, a nearby river, some nearby fields, the Koran and that was it.
Most of the Islamic world lives in similar conditions, far below the poverty line, semi-literate but literate only in religious scripture, often living in near total poverty in cramped and squalid conditions and more often than not it’s because of how their corrupt leaders wish for them to live.
Religion is the Opium of the masses, and for the poor, for the uneducated and undereducated it is the only thing that offers them hope for the future, not even for a future in this life, but a future in the next life, the after life, so they go through this life, doing what they are told adhering to their scriptures that are used as little more than a control cult for political purposes.
The horrific thing is that they have been so indoctrinated to it, that in 9,999 out of a 1,000 cases you can not take it away from them even with promises or gifts of wealth or other substitutes because they have been taught to shun those things in order to gain their heavenly reward and they have been taught to believe it is their eternal soul and not their earthly soul they should give primary attention to.
Education is not the answer because you can’t defeat circular faith based logic through education. You can’t substitute another brand of circular faith based logic for it because they already have been taught there is no substitute for their faith based circular logic and they risk their eternal souls by doing this.
It’s a perfect catch 22 situations and cry all you like but the Hebrews are as responsible for it as Rome is. The pre-Caesar, pre-Christ Hebrew/Habiru/Hapiri were not adherents to monoecism they had G-ds not a G-d and the Cuneiforms and Scrolls and Treaties from Egypt, Babylon and Assyria prove it. The Romans likewise were not into monotheism either until they seized on the Christ Cult for control purposes. I don’t believe for a second the Hebrew Elders have ever revealed the actual name of their Lord and that’s why they never name him and spell G-d, G-d. That doesn’t mean the Hebrew themselves don’t believe in the one Lord that their Elders named for the Christians.
There was no Yahweh in anyone’s pantheon of G-ds in the region there was though a Yawishew in the Canaanite Pantheon who was the Patron G-d of Mercenaries and Pirates.
I truly believe that after the Hyksos Dynasty in Egypt fell the Hapiri migrated into Canaan set up shop in Jerusalem while Rome was slowly growing as a small Kingdom and then Republic along the Tiber. When Caesar realized just how vast the world was and it would be impossible to conquer in one lifetime that either he or Octavian reached out to the Hapiri for the money to keep the expansion going and the Hapiri liked the plan and sacrificed Jerusalem for it to work in order to give credence to the One G-d notion. They went back to Baghdad where they had strong ties while they waited for Rome to begin to implement the Cult. As Roman and Christian Arms would put down Pagans the Hebrews simply came in behind to set up the banking and provide credence to the notion that Jesus was real by being something visible for the pagans to see from that part of the world. They were perfect for the role, they stood out, were different, were quirky, and highly identifiable because they were highly visible in their stark differences to how the local indigenous people’s dressed, ate, danced, etc., etc. At the same time they provided a great target for Rome to scapegoat from time to time, they killed Christ! They will eat your babies, you must believe in the Lord and look to him for your salvation. Of course the nobles that they extended to much credit to would sometimes just kill them rather than pay them back, and in many ways the Roman Bible which frowned on the practice of usury gave them an exclusive franchise on money lending which would have been very attractive to the Hebrew leadership and the wealthier Hebrews themselves. They could afford to take the chance of giving up Jerusalem as a base of operations in part because they had traditionally always wandered anyway and in part because it was written right into the Roman scriptures that it would be eventually returned to them. It was too when all the first nations people of the world were put down and Roman Contract Law and Hebrew Banking was the accepted norm everywhere on the globe. The Vatican handed over its money to Rothschild, debt paid in full, land returned. The Royals from the Empire scattered about primarily in England, but in Spain, the Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden, Lichtenstein, Monaco all got to keep their wealth as Caesars in their own right. All of them tied together through the Holy Roman Empire and the Roman Empire, all of them owing their wealth, land and titles to it.
Corporations like the United States all play their part. Yet in the end to complete the conquest the trio of religions based on the one G-d concept of heaven and hell have to be stamped out because they do create nothing but catch 22 circular logic conditions and situations.
So Jerusalem will be sacrificed once more to this end and most of the Hebrews there as well which because none of them actually know the name of their Lord or exactly what the religion is about anyway and most of them have been marked as slaves anyway (drop your pants and check and see) are all expendable to the Elders of the Tribes that own them and the Zionists they are partnered with in Rome. Like the Nobles and Royals they get to keep their money and prestige moving into the next age with power and influence.
Yes you are right the Muslims aren’t going to tolerate a Hebrew presence in the Middle East because of what the Muslims have been taught, but what they have been taught all stems from the same Hebrew/Roman plot worked out by the Pharisees and the Emperor to deceive the masses of all three cults.
In the end it’s just business to them.
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