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Sentenced to death on the NHS

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posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 11:44 PM
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This is another troubling article about NHS - what the UK calls their government health care agency. The NHS has also been chosen as a potential model for a possible government run/controlled healthcare system in the U.S.

And yes, we've heard from some from the UK that point out that most people are happy with their healthcare under NHS.

Please read the article and consider. I'm not sure the people in the U.S. would be quite so willing to say, "Well, it's only a few people that are being incorrectly forced to die".

Condemned people in the U.S. at least have had jury trials ...

article


Patients with terminal illnesses are being made to die prematurely under an NHS scheme to help end their lives, leading doctors warn today.



[edit on 9/2/2009 by centurion1211]




posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 12:29 AM
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reply to post by centurion1211
 


Very interesting indeed. I can certainly see the US going this direction. Thank goodness the UK is speaking up.



They look for signs that a patient is approaching their final hours, which can include if patients have lost consciousness or whether they are having difficulty swallowing medication.

However, doctors warn that these signs can point to other medical problems.

Patients can become semi-conscious and confused as a side effect of pain-killing drugs such as morphine if they are also dehydrated, for instance.



Prof Millard said that it was “worrying” that patients were being “terminally” sedated, using syringe drivers, which continually empty their contents into a patient over the course of 24 hours.

In 2007-08 16.5 per cent of deaths in Britain came about after continuous deep sedation, according to researchers at the Barts and the London School of Medicine and Dentistry, twice as many as in Belgium and the Netherlands.

“If they are sedated it is much harder to see that a patient is getting better,” Prof Millard said.


I pasted this from the article in case some don't read. The best point, imo, was this:

“There is no one size fits all approach.”



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 12:49 AM
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Interesting article, thank you

Speaking from personal experience, I hope they introduce a similar system of delivering pain-free deaths to terminally-ill and suffering patients in Australia

A close relative died less than a year ago, aged mid-80s. He was suffering numerous health-problems, any one of which had the potential to end his life. Bedridden and spouting tubes from all orifices, he was able to swallow only with great difficulty, his breathing was painful, his body was literally collapsing around his mind, which most of the time wasn't in bad shape, considering

It was clear to everyone that he was never going to walk out of that hospital or even be able to return to high-level care-home

The expenditure in resources and staff was very high, yet all that could possibly be achieved was to extend his life for perhaps several more days or weeks. The most optimistic outlook was that he might be kept alive for a few months at best

He was unable to attend to his bodily functions and this was a matter of great distress to him. Basically, he was aware that without the constant medical intervention and assistance, he would already be dead

In fact, he had to remain in the above condition for several weeks, with no hope of recovery, until he died traumatically

If the UK's Liverpool model existed in Australia, he would have suffered far, far less and been spared the pointless interventions which prolonged his life and suffering

Yes, I can see that the UK method is not fool-proof, but what is ?

The article linked in the OP states that the decision to effectively terminate the patient's life and suffering is not made by one individual, but is a team decision, based on facts available and overseen by a specialist doctor

Regardless of its perceived shortcomings, I still feel the UK model is preferable to the lonely and desperate actions undertaken by many, in order to end their own and/or a loved-one's life rather than be forced to continue living a life that the patient wishes would end



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 12:56 AM
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reply to post by St Vaast
 


Currently, in the US, this person would have the choice to remove the life sustaining tubes and be placed in palliative care. Surely Australia has something to this effect. If they do, and he chose not to use it then it was his choice and his right.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 01:09 AM
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Maybe we should hear some stories of the 49 million Americans who don't have any health care insurance. bring a bit of balance to this debate. As it seems to be a daily NHS bashing on ATS. Most people in the UK an Europe don't even think about health care. The debate was won over 50 years ago. America can behave like such a juvenile country. I guess you are still young as a nation.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


In the US if you are seriously ill and go to the ER you will be taken care of insurance or not. We do have county hospitals and even private hospitals are required to take a certain number of indigent patients.

And I am one of the 49 million Americans without health care insurance.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by liveandlearn
reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


In the US if you are seriously ill and go to the ER you will be taken care of insurance or not. We do have county hospitals and even private hospitals are required to take a certain number of indigent patients.

And I am one of the 49 million Americans without health care insurance.


what happens if you break your arm? what happens if your diagnosed with cancer? who pays for all your meds, chemo and radiotherapy, rehabilitation?

who pays if you get hit on the head that you cant return to work who pays for the occupational therapist that gets you back to work?

Good luck to you Im glad you like your health care system. I prefer the UK's version. It's far from perfect, but it's keeping me alive so I'm probably biased on the issue



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


The oly ones showing a "juvenile attitude" are people like yourself who can't seem to understand "why are many Americans trying to fight a Socialist takeover of their healthcare and country'?....

It should be OUR choice, and just because the Obama administration brainwashed America's youth, and used tactics which they condemned the military from doing, such as going to talk to seniors in high schools and in colleges to recruit them, it doesn't mean that those Americans who voted for this "CHANGE" really knew what the "CHANGE" was all about.

Many Americans who voted for the Obama administration have seen the big mistake hey did, and others are slowly waking up. There are still some who are stll too brainwashed to even understand what is going on.

The Democrats even have wanted, and still want for a long time to lower the voting vote age to 16 because they know they can brainwashed children even better when they are younger, and indoctrinate them into their ideologies with fantasies.

At that age, and even many if not most 18 and 21 year olds just vote for "popularity" and "because my friends are voting for him, or her"...

The voting system should be changed to make sure those who vote know the form of government, and history of their country.

Voters should be asked questions about our Constitution, and the Bill of Rights within it.

They should be asked the history of how, and why the nation was founded and why our forefathers wanted to get rid of English rule.

Only the Americans who show an understanding of the form of government of the Republic fouded by the forefathers, and the documents which are the building blocks of this country should be allowed to vote.




[edit on 3-9-2009 by ElectricUniverse]



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by woodwardjnr
what happens if you break your arm? what happens if your diagnosed with cancer? who pays for all your meds, chemo and radiotherapy, rehabilitation?

who pays if you get hit on the head that you cant return to work who pays for the occupational therapist that gets you back to work?

Good luck to you Im glad you like your health care system. I prefer the UK's version. It's far from perfect, but it's keeping me alive so I'm probably biased on the issue


He already told you you are taken care of even without insurance...

Why in the world do many Canadians come to the U.S. for healthcare for all sorts of treatments which are either lacking or are not allowed in Socialized medicine?

Why are so many Canadians,and others not allowed to have certain cancer treatments THAT WORK, and have to come to the U.S. to get the treatment?

Why do so many people form around the world come to the UNITED STATES for healthcare treatment if the Socialized healthcare is so great?...

You can like YOUR socialized healthcare all you want... We want to have OURS and not YOURS....



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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BTW, I am also an American without insurance.
We should have AFFORDABLE insurance, and not Socialized healthcare.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by ElectricUniverse
 


So all those medical issues I listed will all be treated free at the point of service. then i apologize. I was under the illusion you needed health insurance. Maybe I've been watching too much ER



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 02:17 PM
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reply to post by woodwardjnr
 


You are not deluded. Americans pay for all medical care through insurance, or else through government-run programs like Medicare or Medicaid (gasp! socialism!!! ). Without insurance they have to pay out of pocket; people who pay that way are usually charged top dollar.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 02:23 PM
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reply to post by centurion1211
 

The Telegraph is a tabloid, geared toward the sensational rather than balanced news reporting.

That said, I've no doubt mistakes are made in medical judgment by doctors in the NHS.

But the truth is medical errors happen everyday in this country, too. U.S. doctors are not infallible and have also mistakenly judged a person near death who was not.

It's just too easy to trot out everything the NHS has ever done wrong or ineffectively as an excuse to keep everyone in this country from getting affordable health insurance.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 06:25 PM
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I will say as i have said in another thread on this topic...

Until you live here and use the NHS you can't really comment. If your taking what the MSM has to say as fact then you probably have even less of a place to comment on it.

Two grandparents of mine have died in NHS hospitals and they were both treated brilliantly, not one single complaint or problem. Im sure many other people will tell you the same thing.

I have personally been in hospital for minor injuries over the years and the NHS has been great. Once again no complaints or problems.

Ignore the MSM, more people are happy with the NHS than are not, I guarantee you that.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 06:34 PM
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It is no coincidence that this story has emerged when it has and is also being reported in the US.

Taking into consideration present circumstances I can only treat this piece of news as some sort of propaganda or something.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by refuse_orders
 


I saw another thread on ATS, which actually had some Americans now living in the UK comment. THEY are the only people who can provide comment, and guess what, they all preferred living with the NHS.


Now thats the only reason you should need, people who have seen both, and prefer the one not even of their own country...no backing Americas with pride because it's where they came from..



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by Sestias
 





Without insurance they have to pay out of pocket; people who pay that way are usually charged top dollar.


That just isn't true, at least if you go to the Dr's office. I have always been given a lower price because I don't have insurance. As for hospitals, they are going to charge the same thing as the insurance company. Only thing, you can't get blood out of a turnip, so you pay what you can.

My mom had a heart attach without insurance and was hospitalized 5 days. It took her 3 years to pay it off but she did and she lived on SS.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by liveandlearn


My mom had a heart attach without insurance and was hospitalized 5 days. It took her 3 years to pay it off but she did and she lived on SS.


And if we had a better system, such as the NHS, she wouldn't have had to pay it off and could have had a considerably higher quality of life for those 3 years, especially considering she wouldn't have been stressed over the payments. Stress should always be avoided if you recently suffered cardiac arrest.

I imagine the lack of stress over making medical payments is just one of the factors that contributes to the UK's higher life expectancy and better quality of life.

I don't know. It just seems so obvious to me...



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by liveandlearn
In the US if you are seriously ill and go to the ER you will be taken care of insurance or not.


Yeah, the $3,500.00 ER bill I just recieved for a broken nose (due to no fault of my own I might add) proves this.


And I am one of the 49 million Americans without health care insurance.


That's two of us.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 10:28 PM
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reply to post by StevenDye
 


When the government LITERALLY holds your health in their hands, you
would be a fool to criticize their system. I work with people who come
to the USA from other countries for med care when they need FAST
life-saving treatment(s). Speaking out against your government run
health-care/health-repair system is only done within close friendship
circles. Its amazing the stories I hear.
-cwm




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