Heaven is Space/ Angels are Aliens

Originally posted by ButterCookie
First, we must state the obvious that Heaven is depicted to be a PLACE.

Next, one must distinguish to themselves if they consider this place to be fictious (imaginary) or real with a physical location.....

1. If one states that Heaven is "paradise", I ask them to describe their paradise image and realize that is a personal ideal, existing in ones own mind. They have to then ackowledge that they believe it to be totally imaginary....but then where are the biblical angels falling from, descending from, or ascending up into?

Heaven is not imaginary

2. If one states that Heaven is indeed a pysical, real place, they would be correct...Angels and God had to have had a location to descend down from, and ascend up into....

Heaven is a Real Physical place.

Then you must ask, "Which planet or galaxy does this place exist? Definatley not Earth....think about it: if one is coming down from this place or going up into this place it has exist above this planet. In the bible Heaven is also depicted as "the place beyond the clouds"....if you looked through a telescope and saw beyond the clouds, what are you looking at?

SPACE

How does Angel=Alien? If I am a 'Heaven Dweller" and we've established that Heaven is Space, then what ( in modern terminolgy) do we consider a "Space dweller"?

ALIEN

What do you think a 'winged creature ' that originates from another planet and able to travel through space to reach Earth is called? Today we say Alien or ET...in biblical times they called them Angels...

UFO-Chariot of Fire
Artificial insemination- Virgin Birth
God(s)- ET's with longer life spans and advance technology
Resurections performed- advanced medicine and surgery
High Tech technology- miracles, blessings
Holy- Cosmic

and the list goes on......

Comments?





[edit on 3-9-2009 by ButterCookie]

What if this 'place' is another dimension. What if we travel all the way to the end of the Universe and do not find God...but only what would be considered good and bad aliens. In order to reach the other dimension, your whole being and body change. What if each dimension has a Law that exist within that dimension, like an instruction of how a quilt must be made....there is woven within a pattern of how the Universe or galaxy or dimension will and must be made on. These patterns/laws of each natures may not be a choice of God....but simply a 'way' it must be, without its given law or way....it cant be.

Even though God is God...does not mean God works in ways of choices of wants or desires. If you look at all the patterns in our world (you could do this every second of your life and still never cover them all) you will see God used orders and cycles. This does not mean God choose to do it this way....but can also mean....there is a law that it must be doen this way.
Many beliefs understand there is life in the blood. Many beliefs made their practices and traditions apone the knowledge of animals and the concept of life in the blood.

If there are lower and higher dimensions....then falling from and rising to is understandable.....its not a literal falling and rising....but symbolism that your bettering yourself, your learning, your moving forward and not back, your proceeding, ect.....and this does not have to mean that heaven isnt a 'real place'....really once you study the quantum of this world....you find out the world is much more holographic energies and the idea of what is 'real' may change.



I agree with the ufo thing could be chariots of fire

I think the Virgin Birth is something we are all born in...the Holy Spirit is the breath of life.

Et's surely could of had something to do with old times...but I think the long ages in the Bible are just wrong....

Miracles-I think there is always an explanation for the unexplained. Many of the miracles claimed by the Bible for the man Jesus could be deep allagories for the ones with ears to hear.

Holy-is not fathomable. Holy's physical reflection of its spiritual self is the life within all things....but it itself is not physical. The Holy Spirit is life. These words are not for a literal reading.

Can there be both aliens, God, and angels from other dimensions.....I think totally so, yes.

Have you ever heard of the story of God emanating into lower selves. Once God moves from the Holy Monad, the Most High, God emanates in selves....one from the other, and then another from the former....and these powers and attributes emanate into the lowest dimension which then becomes energy into matter or spirit into physical.

There is a interesting note about the word used for creation in the Hebrew Bible. The word is 'bara'. This does not really mean something came from nothing....but it could be translated as 'filled' or 'fattened'. It could say when we read that 'God created the Heavens and the Earth' (and dont forget the Hebrew word used here is Elohim) that 'God filled and fattened the Heavens and the Earth'. Bara was used as a word describing the filling of the fat in animals when it talks about blood sacrifices. When used here, it literally means the 'filling' of the animals or the 'fat' of the animals.



But impo only

LV


[edit on 3-9-2009 by LeoVirgo]

Reply to post by ButterCookie

Well if it is easy for you to grasp the concept of some 'being' descending from space into ancient civilizations, why is it easier to say it was an alien vice a biblical angel? Neither can be proven fact or ficton. Both seem absurd to skeptics. Both seem legitimate to me...

Which is true? Or are both? Or neither?


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I think people that believe that aliens sprung life on earth are Scientologists.

In response to God being able to change forms from place to place, some aliens have the abilty to shape-shift.


When trying to understand the interpretaion of "ascending up to" or "descending down from" think of it in these terms...

If you lived on Venus and I told you that I'm coming to visit your planet, and by the way, be looking out when I arrive, which direction would you move your head to look out for me ( coming from another planet)?

You would look upwards, because I have to enter through your atmosphere from above it.....

So 'coming down from' and 'going up to' is simply interplanetary travel.

[edit on 3-9-2009 by ButterCookie]

Reply to post by LeoVirgo

I cant help but disagree with your theory of a "governing law". It's fundamentally absurd to think there is a "law" that governs how God should run the show. It's like saying that God is bound by physics...or atleast that is how I interpreted it. Correct me if I am wrong.


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Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Reply to post by OrphenFire

 

I see your point clearly.

I would just like to point out however, that it is JUST AS LIKELY, that they actually WERE angels. We have no absolute way of determining either way as fact or fiction, as of yet.

 

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When you say, "that they actually WERE angels", what do you mean? Define an "angel". In Hebrew, they were called "mal'akh", which meant Messenger of Yahweh. We know Yahweh was what they called God. So they were messengers who came and went between earth and some high place. That high place had to be space. And a being whose purpose was to relay messages in person between space and earth had to have a mode of travel. That is why we see instances of flying vehicles that the messengers traveled in, which primitive man could only describe as "fiery chariots". Read Ezekial's description of some form of transport. One would almost call his attempt at an accurate description feeble, because he can barely describe the wonder he is seeing. I think you are right. They actually were angels. And an angel was a creature with physicality and superior technology.

Edited for typo.

[edit on 3-9-2009 by OrphenFire]

Reply to post by ButterCookie

Sorry, I just don't see the relevance of a THEORETICAL shape-shifting ET.

Let's just say for the threads sake that they do in fact exist. Why does that automatically classify them as what the ancients called angels? Perhaps these shapeshifting aliens were the Pharisees and Saduccees.


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There are angels within this dimension and angel from other dimensions. 1st heaven is space and 2nd haven is dimensional. Or somthing like that.

[edit on 3-9-2009 by Azen thorhammer]

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


I don't think these beings were shapeshifters. The messengers were probably all humanoids. You can, however, find "guardian" types standing around the throne of Yahweh in Isaiah. Those particular beings are NOT humanoid. They are just... weird.

If we read again the ancient religious books with an ASTRONOMICAL meaning, many things go to their right place.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Well when I look at our forces here on this world...I see things like fire, water, wind, and Earth all following orders, laws, cycles. Is there not a law of cause and effect here also? The seed will return to the Earth and emanate itself again and again....the water has many forms itself, dew, rain, snow, mist, hail....the wind doesnt will itself to do as it does...but yet there is an order of cause and effect/cycles....

I figure if there are answers to how things work, it is woven into into what we can smell, see, hear, feel...our senses would be how our mind gains stimulus, information. I think the works of the mysterious are woven in the places that are indestructible....unlike a book. Books can hold wisdom's from men that understood wisdom's...but the blue print of the Holy is in life. Something that was with the first of mankind and will be with the last. Cycles are all around us, cause and effect are everywhere. Even from the female and male, from every polarity, as above so below....in the image we are made in.



Just adding thoughts to the thought
LV

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


That's just it though; angel is an alien.

If I originate on Planet A and then visit Planet B, to the people on Planet B I am an alien....

the fact that you don't see the word 'alien ' in ancient text seems to throw some people off because you expect it to state that exact word.

JukeJoint =club /One was used in the past, the other is used now....same place

Reply to post by OrphenFire

What I am sayingis that angel doesnt have to be interpreted as alien.

It could be just as likely that they are in fact messengers from God. And to say that they MUST have a means of transportation and that heaven IS space is fundamentally ignorant. Sorry, but it is. Who are you to say that physics applies to an omniscient omnipotent being and his messengers? If He created the Universe, surely He could have his messengers travel in whatever mode He sees fit.

These are all very subjective views and opinions. If one can't PROVE that heaven = space or angels = aliens, then it is absolutely necessary to state "IMO".

And IMO, this is all speculation and leads to LESS understanding. It is all very confusing and misconstrued. I kind of think of it relating to when a radical christian exercises his right to freedom of speech. One becomes so numb to the realm of possibilites that they tend to become narrow minded and opinionated.


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Reply to post by LeoVirgo

I agree but that is not a governing law of God.

You cannot put restrictions on an omniscient omnipotent being. That's just a basic law of nature. What goes around comes around, basically. It's not a governing law for creation, it's a governing law of stability. Get it? I might be able to explain better once I eally sit and think about it. Lemme know if you need a better example.


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Reply to post by ButterCookie

In the realm of definitons and how our mind relates to words though, alien and angel are fundamentally different. An angel is a messenger of God, an alien is not of this planet. Therefore ths statement is true :

"All angels are aliens. But not all aliens are angels."

Get what I mean?


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Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
Reply to post by ButterCookie

 

Sorry, I just don't see the relevance of a THEORETICAL shape-shifting ET.

Let's just say for the threads sake that they do in fact exist. Why does that automatically classify them as what the ancients called angels? Perhaps these shapeshifting aliens were the Pharisees and Saduccees.

 

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Appologies, I was being sarcastic about the shape shifters

Simply put , these were ancient astronauts...I use the term astronauts because they traveled to different planets ( hmmmm...like we do today)...

We are not the first with the idea of galetic travel...

It's hard for some people to accept that we are NOT the highest form of life' just the youngest...

And our 'modern techonlogy' was used by far more avanced civizations over a couple of hundreds of thousands years ago.... This society is has been indoctrinated from birth to think that we are the most advanced and that we discovered everthing first.....even when you look at Genesis 1st passage you can depict that we are the youngest planet formed..

No? At what point does the bible state when and how the other planets and solar sytems were formed? It doesn't....

because they were already here

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1

"You are the LORD, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you." Nehemiah 9:6

"For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities - all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Colossians 1:16-17

Obviously, God transcends creation if he were to create it, and clearly, the Bible teaches that the focus of worship is not on the creation but rather the creator. Angels, being part of the creation, are therefore unworthy of worship.

It sounds like your theory claims that Aliens created humans so that we would worship or serve them? But the Bible clearly defines angels as ministers or servants of God, and they also worship God as with all creation.

I would like to provide a Biblical idea of "heaven". Yes, when the Bible talks about "the heavens", its talking about the universe apart from the earth; however, heaven in a spiritual reference is defined as being eternally in the presence of God, who is holy and righteous and the source of all wisdom and truth.

Your theory is interesting, but just doesn't remain consistent with what the Bible teaches about angels and heaven. And there's no doubt the Bible was your inspiration:

"What do you think a 'winged creature ' that originates from another planet and able to travel through space to reach Earth is called? Today we say Alien or ET...in biblical times they called them Angels...

UFO-Chariot of Fire
Artificial insemination- Virgin Birth
God(s)- ET's with longer life spans and advance technology
Resurections performed- advanced medicine and surgery
High Tech technology- miracles, blessings
Holy- Cosmic "


[edit on 9/3/09 by RockAwayRadio]

Reply to post by ButterCookie

I agree....to an extent.

Did you catch my analogy? I believe I postedit while you werereplying to my other response

Sometimes I can get outta hand with my posts...one right after the other and what-not.


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reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Wow...

How do you explain their mode of transportation from one planet to another? You can't intertwine physical and imaginary

(Dora the Explorer can't come to Memphis TN in her Dora car, nor can I get in my Ford Explorer and go to Fraggle Rock)

My point is a Physcial body has to travel by physical means and vice versa...

Another way to look at it would be this: never said the aliens made interplanetary travel without vessles .....an alien traveling in a UFO could possibly be described as an angel flying with wings....
No?

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


I gotcha

But see sometimes you have to take a step back to see the picture...if you're up too close it can be very blury and hard to interpret what it is...