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Science says we don't die

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posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 09:00 PM
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reply to post by reticledc
 


No i think the premise is that consciousness is primary, what might be called a monistic idealism as opposed to a materialist monism.
The notion is that of the Tao, forever generating a universe which has become or always was, self aware. In that context and frame of reference, the essential self, the transcendant ego or the most fundamental "I am" of being can never die. We are forever trapped in eternal being and eternal consciousness, open for continuous exploration in one form or another, forever. So in that sense, the materialists can do away with the idea of how our atoms remain and that it's only in that sense that part of us remains, it's more than that, much much more, much deeper and closer to the heart, and to the soul, and to God.




posted on Sep, 2 2009 @ 10:05 PM
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There's some good responses.

Your thoughts and memories don't die. How can they?

Again, science says nothing dies. It just changes form.

How can brain waves die?

Your body stops working and your brain waves don't just disappear. It's like when you turn off your TV set. The signal doesn't disappear it's just not transmitting to your set.

When you die, your thoughts, memories and awareness will just become disembodied.

Scientist and materialist can't say your thoughts, memories and awareness dies unless they show your thoughs, memories and awareness is something other than matter, energy and information.

When you read a book or take a vacation, that's information that becomes a memory. You can't say this memory dies, unless you are saying that information dies.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 12:15 AM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


So true, since the universe itself, as a type of vast active living information system, envelopes the scull, and the body is already emersed within it - there can be no separation. Thus, what you are saying is logical and rational.

Unless the universe is dead and mindless or lacking in any sort of information processing, and therefore any sort of awareness - but a dead matter universe is not the one we find ourselves in now is it? No.

What you are talking about is some sort of transluminal connecting principal, and indeed this has been proven by Bell's Theorem as a response to the EPR experiment, which assumed, wrongly, that instantaneous interconnectedness is not possible, when in reality, that's all there is, now and forever, here and everywhere, and nowhere in particular. It's universally distributed information, and the universe itself, a fully informed zero point field or akiashic field, wholly interdependant in every way, where information alone is what connects everythinng together as one.

I'm with you on this. It's valid.



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 07:59 AM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


Very good points.

I see it as a feedback loop between the brain and the Zero Point field.

The Field transmits information to the brain(reciever) and we broadcast reality.

Your thoughts and memories are information and energy so they can't die. Like I said science has not shown that anything dies it just transforms into another state.

So when the reciever(body) stops working your thoughts and memories loop back to the Field and then are reincarnated into a different reciever.

So when the body stops working, you become more aware. You hear in many near death experiences how people said they become more aware as they leave consciousness. This is because in the body you have a sense of self and the seperation of things. When you leave the body that sense of self and seperation gives way to awareness of the Field.

So in order to say we die, you have to say matter, energy and information dies and we know this isn't the case. These things just transform from one state into another state or from one medium to another.

[edit on 3-9-2009 by Matrix Rising]



posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 08:43 AM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


I believe that was the point that I was trying to illustrate.
The beginning of the reply was a question to set the stage.
Personally, I think that a atoms are no more alive than, oh.... say.... a rock, etc.....
I do not disagree with the notion that there is a greater consciousness that all of us are a part of.
It is our awareness of ourselves and our surroundings that burden us with the questions of "who am I, What am I, Where am I, When am I, Why am I, etc...
There are so many points of view, as to what exactly happens, but it's up to the individual to make that determination.
in the end our own beliefs may be irrelevant or not.
So far, no one has come back to complain.



posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 04:02 AM
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reply to post by angelx666
 


Since the op has used "science", I think it only fair that we continue to use science fact when replying?

If we have the option to live forever, then why has no-one managed to live much beyond 100?

Has it been recreated in a lab with other creatures? ie, fruit flies/flys
that are continuing to live beyond their life expectancy?

Also, where is the scientific evidence that the soul actually exsists? It is not enough to say "because it does" or "because I can feel it".

All evidence sadly points to the fact that nothing lives forever, (apart from atoms).

Imo, the myth that we can go on living after death was a lie created by religions to give the people something to buy into so as to control them.

The universe has been about for billions of years, our exsistance is only a tiny blip, we didn't exsist before conception, and chances are that we wont exsist after. What is to be afraid of?



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 12:35 AM
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reply to post by va1963
 


It's not about the fear of death, it's about science.

I think many atheist and materialist think just because religion says there's life after death they have to say there's no life after death.

Many of them are blinded by their hatred for religion.

This is about science and spirituality and it's not a matter of any particular religious belief.

There's no evidence that anything dies. Science tells us that everything just transitions from one form to another. Ice, turns to water, which turns to steam. Steam turns to water which turns back to ice.

There's no evidence that nature kills anything. I actually stopped saying people die. I just say they transitioned because I see zero scientific evidence of death.

This would point to reincarnation. Reincarnation is just your thoughts, memories and ideas transitioning to another state.

So the question shouldn't be is there evidence for life after death.

The question should be is there any evidence that nature kills anything. Everything in nature just transforms from one state to another state.



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 01:12 AM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


Good reply ,fair point, I just have trouble getting my . round all this spirituality stuff as there's no evidence that any of that exsists either.
I'm not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I can't help but think that spirituality, reincarnation etc is wishfull thinking.
I would like nothing more than to be proved wrong.



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 01:33 AM
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reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


You are I believe, exactly correct. That's it. And from what I've read, including some books on modern science, this is precisely the framework, that of a monistic idealism, where meaning and awareness not only creates reality but IS reality, at the most fundamental level. Life is very much like a school happening in a dream, dreamt by none other than the mind of God, which contains all information, and is fully informed with the potentia, not just of each incarnation, but of each universe, all the way down through and towards, one eternal akashic field of information, or a fully informed Zero Point Field. Information. And there is no more complex a transmission and recieving device for the cosmos, than the human brain and mind.

It's like a sphere within a sphere, and both spheres are very similar and both are made of information in the form of consciousness.

You mind is represented in the universe, represented in your mind, represented in the universe, ad infinitum.

There's no getting around it. The materialist monists are just plain wrong.



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 01:48 AM
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"The God Theory" by Bernard Haisch
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249274834&sr=8-1

Haisch is an astrophysicist whose professional positions include Staff Scientist at the Lockheed Martin Solar and Astrophysics Laboratory, Deputy Director for the Center for Extreme Ultraviolet Astrophysics at the University of California, Berkeley, and Visiting Fellow at the Max-Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany. His work has led to close involvement with NASA; he is the author of over 130 scientific papers; and was the Scientific Editor of the Astrophysical Journal for nine years, as well as the editor in chief of the Journal of Scientific Exploration.

an excerpt



If you think of whitte light as a metaphor of infinite, formless potential, the colors on a slide or frame of film become a structured reality grounded in the polarity that comes about through intelligent subtraction from that absolute formless potential. It results from the limitation of the unlimited. I contend that this metaphor provides a comprehensible theory for the creation of a manifest reality (our universe) from the selective limitation of infinite potential (God)...
If there exists an absolute realm that consists of infinite potential out of which a created realm of polarity emerges, is there any sensible reason not to call this "God"? Or to put it frankly, if the absolute is not God, what is it? For our purposes here, I will indentify the Absolute with God. More precisely I will call the Absolute the God.. Applying this new terminology to the optics analogy, we can conclude that our physical universe comes about when the God. selectively limits itself, taking on the role of Creator and manifesting a realm of space and time and, within that realm, filtering out some of its own infinite potential...
Viewed this way, the process of creation is the exact opposite of making something out of nothing. It is, on the contrary, a filtering process that makes something out of everything. Creation is not capricious or random addition; it is intelligent and selective subtraction. The implications of this are profound. If the Absolute is the God., and if creation is the process by which the God. filters our parts of its own infinite potential to manifest a physical reality that supports experience, then the stuff that is left over, the residue of this process, is our physical universe, and ourselves included. We are nothing less than a part of that God. - quite literally.

Next, by Ervin Laszlo

Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything, 2004
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-1

And, his other seminal work
Science and the Reenchantment of the Cosmos: The Rise of the Integral Vision of Reality
www.amazon.com...=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1249275852&sr=8-6

Ervin Laszlo is considered one of the foremost thinkers and scientists of our age, perhaps the greatest mind since Einstein. His principal focus of research involves the Zero Point Field. He is the author of around seventy five books (his works having been translated into at least seventeen languages), and he has contributed to over 400 papers. Widely considered the father of systems philosophy and general evolution theory, he has worked as an advisor to the Director-General of the United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization. He was also nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in both 2004 and 2005. A multidisciplinarian, Laszlo has straddled numerous fields, having worked at universities as a professor of philosophy, music, futures studies, systems science, peace studies, and evolutionary studies. He was a sucessful concert pianist until he was thirty eight.

In his view, the zero-point field (or the Akashic Field, as he calls it) is quite literally the "mind of God".

Naming Hal Puthoff, Roger Penrose, Fritz-Albert Popp, and a handful of others as "front line investigators", Laszlo quotes Puthoff who says of the new scientific paradigm:



[What] would emerge would be an increased understanding that all of us are immersed, both as living and physical beings, in an overall interpenetrating and interdependant field in ecological balance with the cosmos as a whole, and that even the boundary lines between the physical and "metaphysical" would dissolve into a unitary viewpoint of the universe as a fluid, changing, energetic/informational cosmological unity."

an excert from Science and the Akashic Field, an Integral Theory of Everything



Akasha (a . ka . sha) is a Sanskrit word meaning "ether": all-pervasive space. Originally signifying "radiation" or "brilliance", in Indian philosophy akasha was considered the first and most fundamental of the five elements - the others being vata (air), agni (fire), ap (water), and prithivi (earth). Akasha embraces the properties of all five elements: it is the womb from which everything we percieve with our senses has emerged and into which everything will ultimately re-descend. The Akashic Record (also called The Akashic Chronicle) is the enduring record of all that happens, and has ever happened, in space and time."

Laszlo's view of the history of the universe is of a series of universes that rise and fall, but are each "in-formed" by the existence of the previous one. In Laszlo's mind, the universe is becoming more and more in-formed, and within the physical universe, matter (which is the crystallization of intersecting pressure waves or an interference pattern moving through the zero-point field) is becoming increasing in-formed and evolving toward higher forms of consciousness and realization.

a liitle more to follow, so that people can get the whole picture of the new paradigm of sicentific inquiry and why it involves the "mind of God"

[edit on 7-9-2009 by OmegaPoint]



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 01:49 AM
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In discussing the metaphysical implications of the identification of the zero-point field, Laszlo specifically notes the fact that it can contain an infinite number of "waves" of information:


This conception corresponds to a perennial intuition also articulated in Hindu Cosmology. There the almost infinitely varied things and forms of the manifest world are united in an essential oneness at a deeper level. At the fundamental level of reality the forms of existing things dissolve into formlessness, living organisms exist in a state of pure potentiality, and dynamic functions condense into static stillness. All attributes of the manifest world merge into a state beyond attributes. Time, space, and causality, are transcended in a state of pure being; the state of Brahman. Absolute reality is the reality of Brahman; the manifest world enjoys but a derived, secondary reality - mistaking it for the real, is the illusion of maya.

On the mind and the human being


A comparatively evolved system, such as the human, has a comparatively evolved brain and thus a correspondingly articulated mental potential. The endows the human brain with a highly evolved capacity for recieving sensory signals from the manifest domain, and nonsensory in-formation from the virtual domain [ie: the zero-point field]. In regard to the latter, the brain is genetically informed by the wave function of the universe and specifically in-formed by the wave function of the social and ecological systems in which the individual participates. Sensory information constitutes the familiar contents of everyday experience, whereas nonsensory information, in modern societies generally repressed, comes to light mainly in the form of intuitions, images, archetypes, and the seemingly anomalous contents of altered-state experience.

He goes on to state that


The altered-state interconnection of human consciousness with the world at large is of crucial importance for our times (atheists take note). It exhibits a fact that both mainstream science and mainstream public opinion has long disregarded; that our mind is spontaneously linked with other minds, and even with the cosmos as a whole.

On evolution, consciousness, and God


Evolution, we should note, realizes a twofold potential in the cosmos; a physical potential for the progressive, although intermittent and non-linear, complexification of manifest entitites; and a mental potential for the intermittent yet progressive evolution of consciousness. These potentials were encoded in the primordial virtual-energy domain. In the maximum concept that domain constitutes [b]the primordial nature of God.
Upon the termination of the evolutionary process - following the "evaporation" of the last remnants of supergalactic structures in the space and time of the last universe - the potentials encoded in the primordial virtual domain achieve final realzation. For the maximum concept the completely in-formed virtual-energy domain constitutes the consequent nature of God.

Until finally, as Laszlo mystically envisages it:


In the course of innumerable universes, the pulsating Metaverse realizes all that the primeval plenum held in potential. The plenum is no longer formless; its surface is of unimaginable complexity and coherence; its depth is FULLY IN-FORMED (caps by me ie: infinite intelligence). The cosmic proto-consciousness that endowed the primeval plenum with its universe-creative potentials becomes a fully articulated self aware cosmic consciousness - it becomes, and thenceforth eternally is, the self-realized mind of God.

In the words of Paul Davies, "The Mind of God: The Scientific Basis for a Rational World" 1992, we read


I belong to a group of scientists who do not subscribe to a conventional religion but nevertheless deny that the universe is a purposeless accident. Through my scientific work I have come to believe more and more strongly that the physical universe is put together with an ingenuity so astonishing than I cannot accept it merely as brute fact. THere must, it seems to me, be a deeper explanation. Furthermore, I have come to the point of view that mind - ie: conscious awareness of the world - is not a meaningless and incidental quirk of nature, but an absolutely fundamental facet of reality



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 01:52 AM
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So I say it's not the fear of death we must come to grips with, but the fear of eternal life meeting life in eternity, without end. If you really think about it, that is just as terrifying as ceasing to exist altogether, living forever and ever and ever, without end, in eternity, but that may just be the actual state, of the present moment we already find outselves in, an eternal now from which there is NO ESCAPE!



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 01:55 AM
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this is correct, in a closed system, energy can not be destroyed, it can only transfer in state.

But this is common knowledge to some.



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


Always and forever in the now you say? How beautiful that is.



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by Codazzle
 


I think the universe, or universes, in reality, are both. Both closed AND open, both bounded and boundless, with each universe, although closed, still connected to every and all parent universes, whereby information is the permanent umbillical cord between parent and child universes, or in other words, the fully informed akashic field or Tao which gave rise and continues to give rise to Existence (with a capital E).



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 02:02 AM
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Originally posted by 4stral4pprentice
reply to post by OmegaPoint
 

Always and forever in the now you say? How beautiful that is.

It's a fact.

What else is there?




posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 02:17 AM
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Actually, when you really come to think about it - it becomes obvious, that it is incumbant upon us to be fully responsible and wholly good because our every thought and deed reverberates through all eternity, and remains with us for the duration..

"Therefore be ye perfect, even as your father in heaven IS perfect."

Jesus only really makes sense, from a Buddhist or Taost perspective, I think.



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 05:56 AM
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'scuse me while I quote someone word-for-word.
Try to grasp how this paragraph makes you feel subconsciously, instead of just interpreting the words themselves.



A religion teacher tells the following short story:
Suppose a big machine presses your whole body fast into a small ball, so hard that it hasn't got empty spaces in it. What have you become in that small fully full ball in which any movement is impossible? Is it the miracle called nothing that has always been nothing, or is it the miracle the living one inside something where nothing can happen? The news already mentioned a quick death, so as one sees one can only choose a miracle. And how do you treat from out of all miracles who all just constantly do their job or the same.. that the one that makes you nothing doesn't exist, like it is presently constantly the case.
A good or bad religion teacher?


edit: EXACT quote

[edit on 7-9-2009 by siree]

[edit on 7-9-2009 by siree]



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 06:31 AM
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Originally posted by OmegaPoint
reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


So true, since the universe itself, as a type of vast active living information system,


Give the man some props if you're going to use his terms. A nice "as PKD called it" or something. Just sayin. (lol, I loved to see it.) Nice thread. Good discussion. I personally think the thing that dies never lived in reality. In other words, a "false self" which experiences itself as separate and distinct, being a fictional (though largely unconscious) creation of an actual being, has only illusory existence. Therefore it can "die". In the story, which doesn't have genuine reality either. That which dreamed it up cannot. Its all a matter of gaining the proper perspective. Identifying with the dreamer instead of the dream. Good luck to us all in that.

[edit on 7-9-2009 by joechip]



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by Egyptia
reply to post by Matrix Rising
 


We have been genetically spliced and our DNA has been corrupted. Add to that the systemic poisoning that is being implemented and has been for years now including vaccines, food, artificial preservatives, chem trails, biological warfare, pharmaceuticals, technological harnessing to degrade cellular structure and an endless list of other so called weapons to keep us sickly and dying.

Also keep in mind that 'they' have been withholding many cures for many illnesses and diseases. The society that they have created is to keep people ill and weak. This is only getting worse and the great plan is genocide.

But at some point in our history our DNA was genetically altered and corrupted so as to ensure a shorter life span. The agenda of the Illuminati elite is taking advantage of this and their agenda is one of population control. They want to rule with full power but our numbers are too large for them and they are unable to meet their goals with the pre-existing population.

But yes, originally in our genetic design we were intended to live for many hundreds of years.



how did you come to the conclusion we originally lived for hundreds of years? do you have anything to back that up?


pm me or something if you could as i'll probably forget i posted in here lol




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