The Black Panthers' Ten Point Plan

Most of you are probably familiar with the Black Panthers and their history of political and social involvement. During Obama's campaign for presidency, he was associated with an endorsement by a group calling themselves 'The NEW Black Panthers.' This group has been discredited and disowned by Obama AND the Black Panthers.
This isn't a discussion about that. I've read that there were allegations of impropriety on the part of New Black Panthers during the last presidential election. Here are a few of the highlights.

Two black panthers were blocking the doorway at a polling place in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Rick Levanthal of Fox News is reporting live.

One of the panthers said "the black man was going to win the White House no matter what."

Brandishing a night stick, and swinging it menacingly, the police were called - one of the black panthers and his night stick were moved.

Do you think little old white ladies would want to walk past the black panther with a night stick.

I have also read that the DOJ had some charges against three of these 'New Black Panthers', and they got dropped under Obama's administration.

Link to ONE VERSION of That Story

Here is a link and excert from the Black Panthers' website where they distance themselves from that fiasco.

There is No New Black Panther Party

In response from numerous requests from individual's seeking information on the "New Black Panthers," the Dr. Huey P. Newton Foundation issues this public statement to correct the distorted record being made in the media by a small band of African Americans calling themselves the New Black Panthers. As guardian of the true history of the Black Panther Party, the Foundation, which includes former leading members of the Party, denounces this group's exploitation of the Party's name and history. Failing to find its own legitimacy in the black community, this band would graft the Party's name upon itself, which we condemn.

This isn't about that either. This thread is a brief examination of the core philosophies of the Black Panthers and more specificially, a discussion about their 'Ten Points.' Document.

blackpanther.org/TenPoint.htm

The Ten Point Plan

1. WE WANT FREEDOM. WE WANT POWER TO DETERMINE THE DESTINY OF OUR BLACK AND OPPRESSED COMMUNITIES.
We believe that Black and oppressed people will not be free until we are able to determine our destinies in our own communities ourselves, by fully controlling all the institutions which exist in our communities.

2. WE WANT FULL EMPLOYMENT FOR OUR PEOPLE.
We believe that the federal government is responsible and obligated to give every person employment or a guaranteed income. We believe that if the American businessmen will not give full employment, then the technology and means of production should be taken from the businessmen and placed in the community so that the people of the community can organize and employ all of its people and give a high standard of living.

3. WE WANT AN END TO THE ROBBERY BY THE CAPITALISTS OF OUR BLACK AND OPPRESSED COMMUNITIES.
We believe that this racist government has robbed us and now we are demanding the overdue debt of forty acres and two mules. Forty acres and two mules were promised 100 years ago as restitution for slave labor and mass murder of Black people. We will accept the payment in currency which will be distributed to our many communities. The American racist has taken part in the slaughter of our fifty million Black people. Therefore, we feel this is a modest demand that we make.

4. WE WANT DECENT HOUSING, FIT FOR THE SHELTER OF HUMAN BEINGS.
We believe that if the landlords will not give decent housing to our Black and oppressed communities, then housing and the land should be made into cooperatives so that the people in our communities, with government aid, can build and make decent housing for the people.

5. WE WANT DECENT EDUCATION FOR OUR PEOPLE THAT EXPOSES THE TRUE NATURE OF THIS DECADENT AMERICAN SOCIETY. WE WANT EDUCATION THAT TEACHES US OUR TRUE HISTORY AND OUR ROLE IN THE PRESENT-DAY SOCIETY.
We believe in an educational system that will give to our people a knowledge of the self. If you do not have knowledge of yourself and your position in the society and in the world, then you will have little chance to know anything else.

6. WE WANT COMPLETELY FREE HEALTH CARE FOR All BLACK AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE.
We believe that the government must provide, free of charge, for the people, health facilities which will not only treat our illnesses, most of which have come about as a result of our oppression, but which will also develop preventive medical programs to guarantee our future survival. We believe that mass health education and research programs must be developed to give all Black and oppressed people access to advanced scientific and medical information, so we may provide our selves with proper medical attention and care.

7. WE WANT AN IMMEDIATE END TO POLICE BRUTALITY AND MURDER OF BLACK PEOPLE, OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR, All OPPRESSED PEOPLE INSIDE THE UNITED STATES.
We believe that the racist and fascist government of the United States uses its domestic enforcement agencies to carry out its program of oppression against black people, other people of color and poor people inside the united States. We believe it is our right, therefore, to defend ourselves against such armed forces and that all Black and oppressed people should be armed for self defense of our homes and communities against these fascist police forces.

8. WE WANT AN IMMEDIATE END TO ALL WARS OF AGGRESSION.
We believe that the various conflicts which exist around the world stem directly from the aggressive desire of the United States ruling circle and government to force its domination upon the oppressed people of the world. We believe that if the United States government or its lackeys do not cease these aggressive wars it is the right of the people to defend themselves by any means necessary against their aggressors.

9. WE WANT FREEDOM FOR ALL BLACK AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE NOW HELD IN U. S. FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY, CITY AND MILITARY PRISONS AND JAILS. WE WANT TRIALS BY A JURY OF PEERS FOR All PERSONS CHARGED WITH SO-CALLED CRIMES UNDER THE LAWS OF THIS COUNTRY.
We believe that the many Black and poor oppressed people now held in United States prisons and jails have not received fair and impartial trials under a racist and fascist judicial system and should be free from incarceration. We believe in the ultimate elimination of all wretched, inhuman penal institutions, because the masses of men and women imprisoned inside the United States or by the United States military are the victims of oppressive conditions which are the real cause of their imprisonment. We believe that when persons are brought to trial they must be guaranteed, by the United States, juries of their peers, attorneys of their choice and freedom from imprisonment while awaiting trial.

10. WE WANT LAND, BREAD, HOUSING, EDUCATION, CLOTHING, JUSTICE, PEACE AND PEOPLE'S COMMUNITY CONTROL OF MODERN TECHNOLOGY.
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

I don't think that Blacks are the only 'oppressed' people in America. I DO like some of the goals outlined in the 'Points', but some of them are a bit of a stretch to me.

What I found odd when reading this, was that some of these things seem to be happening right now. I imagine the Ten Points is pretty old.

So what do you think? Do you think the ideals expressed here are Socialist? Communist? A hybrid? Are they an entirely different system unrelated to any other?

Because I'm thinking I like some of these ideas. Would that make ME a socialist? I Don't agree that it's the government's job to supply me with either a job, or fixed income, but freedom sounds pretty good.

One more question...take a look at the first point again.

Does this sound like segregation to anyone else? Segregation was 'bad,' right?

I don't want to get into any arguments about race, I want to examine the Ten Points and have feedback on those and how they are being played out today. I know I really can't avoid all perceptions of bias and if you think I'm a racist, there's nothing I can do about that. I'd just like to understand.

The issues don't seem any different today than they were when this concept (The Ten Point Plan) was created, but some say the conditions that the black people in America must endure today are worse than they were in the 60's.

Your interpretation of these Ten Points is greatly appreciated and your input welcome. I'm very interested to know if you see any correlation between these philosophies and what is happening today.

Do you think there is any significance to the NUMBER of points?

Originally posted by KSPigpen
I don't think that Blacks are the only 'oppressed' people in America. I DO like some of the goals outlined in the 'Points', but some of them are a bit of a stretch to me.

You're right, blacks are not the only oppressed people. The wording is wrong, probably a result of the oppression they feel. Rightfully so, imo.

Which do you believe to be a stretch, and why?

Sure, this full health care coverage clause seems a stretch. If they get it, everyone else should have the chance. If they work, which they obviously are demanding the opportunity to do so, I don't see why health care benefits, etc. can't be integrated.

All I really see is an emotionally charged plea for help from the government to get the ghettos (of America) cleaned up and their residents integrated into society.

What I found odd when reading this, was that some of these things seem to be happening right now. I imagine the Ten Points is pretty old.

A point can be made pertaining to the admins foreign policy and point 8, but only to a certain extent - so far as we left Iraq alone and moved, in full, to Afghanistan. Most progression on the War on Poverty has been made by presidents prior to Bush Sr.

So what do you think? Do you think the ideals expressed here are Socialist? Communist? A hybrid? Are they an entirely different system unrelated to any other?

Well free health care. Since someone has to pay, this is socialist. Community control of facilities/resources is basically what the rest of America enjoys.

They demand restitution, which they were obviously promised, for being totally oppressed. Natives were afforded this, although they were ripped off.

What they really demand is to be recognized and fully integrated into American society.

Because I'm thinking I like some of these ideas. Would that make ME a socialist? I Don't agree that it's the government's job to supply me with either a job, or fixed income, but freedom sounds pretty good.

Whats so bad about having some socialist tendencies? Is it really so bad that the rich of our country would have to suffer a minor hit to reimbursments so our poor can be healthy and live half-ass comfortably? Ask France about it, if you don't believe me.

Communism doesn't have all the answers, but extremist capitalism leads to an oppressed, enslaved caste system.

JFK said when people can't find a job after trying, it's the governments duty to realize and solve the problem. These people are obviously asking for help finding employment. If that doesn't work, they demand unemployment.

One more question...take a look at the first point again.

Does this sound like segregation to anyone else? Segregation was 'bad,' right?

No, it sounds like they feel they are being segregated. I would say a lot of this document has to do with people living in ghettos, which are massively black majority communities. I don't know the scope of how business' are run in these areas, but these people obviously see the individuals running their resources are 'not of the community' or "not of their communities' interests".

It's not a stretch to imagine that being impossible, either.

I don't want to get into any arguments about race, I want to examine the Ten Points and have feedback on those and how they are being played out today. I'd just like to understand.

The issues don't seem any different today than they were when this concept (The Ten Point Plan) was created, but some say the conditions that the black people in America must endure today are worse than they were in the 60's.

I would say things are relatively the same - at least in modern times. Tupac and BIG talked about it in the early 90s - so did puff, but he went soft after you know what. Immortal Technique, KRSOne, Breeze talk about it now. Just a few out of many examples of informed individuals.

I don't know about the 60's, but since then we have, definitely, procured coc aine from South America and, likely, poppies from the ME.

Do you think there is any significance to the NUMBER of points?

Only 10, where they clearly state, as a final point, they are feeling this oppression is leading them to declare this doctrine or secede.

*Oh, lol, ya I do. Like I said, 10 says secession.

I would say the segregatorial aspects, which definitely appear racist, are just a product of their feelings of being oppressed. I honestly don't blame them. That's exacly what happens when a government that wants to be in control doesn't take care of it's subjects.

My opinion: Really, America is lucky the hard points of our country are so caught up in the daily struggle. Lucky they are fighting themselves, lucky the general poor population is lobotomized with crack (and likely heroine) and lucky mainstream rap is about sex, drugs, violence.

Then again, luck can also be just a fool's perception of manipulation.

If the ghettos realized what they were, a revolution would ensue. A bloody one, at that. Our government better hope Tupac is dead, imo.

Just my opinion.

[edit on 2-9-2009 by shanerz]

reply to post by shanerz


Thanks, Shane. I applaud you efforts and contribution.

The parts I found to just sound strange to me were mainly the healthcare and the right to a guaranteed income. The healthcare seems to be on the way to working itself out, and I certainly can't blame anyone for wanting access to healthcare, but..

We believe that the federal government is responsible and obligated to give every person employment or a guaranteed income.

...seemed a little like claiming some sort of entitlement. I'm not so sure that is so wrong, as I am certainly not qualified as a judge, it just seems to really advocate a welfare state.

I agree that there isn't really any ONE president, or administration to 'hold responsible' for our seeming lust for international blood. I suppose I often buy into the fantasy that a knight on a white horse, or a tall, dark stranger will come rescue the country from the mess we've created, but it just never works out that way.

They demand restitution, which they were obviously promised, for being totally oppressed. Natives were afforded this, although they were ripped off.

I could certainly rally behind this and I am glad you picked it out. If they were promised restitution, they should receive it. If for no other reason than it was promised to them.

What they really demand is to be recognized and fully integrated into American society.

This instantly gets my dander up. I need to dig in to why, I suppose. When I read this...

We believe that Black and oppressed people will not be free until we are able to determine our destinies in our own communities ourselves, by fully controlling all the institutions which exist in our communities.

...it made me think that the goal wasn't so much 'integration' as it was segregation; 'compartmentalizing' races under their own autonomous management. I guess when I read it, it made me picture a completely separate nation of black people. Again, I'll really need to find out why I think the way I do, but I truly appreciate your interpretation.

Whats so bad about having some socialist tendencies? Is it really so bad that the rich of our country would have to suffer a minor hit to reimbursments so our poor can be healthy and live half-ass comfortably? Ask France about it, if you don't believe me.

Communism doesn't have all the answers, but extremist capitalism leads to an oppressed, enslaved caste system.

JFK said when people can't find a job after trying, it's the governments duty to realize and solve the problem. These people are obviously asking for help finding employment. If that doesn't work, they demand unemployment.

So, not to offend, just to learn...are you advocating a mix of ideals? Do you think that we already HAVE some socialist qualities to our society in the US? Do you think that the 'unemployment' system we have in individual states now is Socialist? I know some would argue that finding gainful employment, or a way to support your family falls squarely on the individual and not the state. I'm mixed on that. I detest abuse of the system, but do appreciate that it's there to provide assistance to people having trouble finding a job. I feel a person SHOULD have a little assistance, but then the ball falls in their court. Maybe thinking like that is why people live under bridges.

No, it sounds like they feel they are being segregated. I would say a lot of this document has to do with people living in ghettos, which are massively black majority communities. I don't know the scope of how business' are run in these areas, but these people obviously see the individuals running their resources are 'not of the community' or "not of their communities' interests".

I really see a strong parallel here between these Ten Points and the efforts of the founding fathers to rid themselves of the burdens imposed by the Bankers in England. Both were trying to eliminate the influence of 'foreign' leadership of their financial, commercial and social institutions. I'm glad you brought up that point as well, as it has given me a new found respect for this document.

I would say things are relatively the same - at least in modern times. Tupac and BIG talked about it in the early 90s - so did puff, but he went soft after you know what. Immortal Technique, KRSOne, Breeze talk about it now. Just a few out of many examples of informed individuals.

I don't know about the 60's, but since then we have, definitely, procured coc aine from South America and, likely, poppies from the ME.

You bring up an interesting discussion in it's own right. I believe that these folks you mentioned are often glorified as having escaped the traps of their surroundings, or having 'made something out of themselves' or even as having the 'voice' of a certain demographic. I suppose in that regard, the activism is still there. I can't help but wonder if it has the same result though, or if the folks present more of the appearance of self-service than of community involvement and support.

I would say the segregatorial aspects, which definitely appear racist, are just a product of their feelings of being oppressed. I honestly don't blame them. That's exactly what happens when a government that wants to be in control doesn't take care of it's subjects.

I'm glad that I wasn't way off in my interpretation, but you're making me think again. When a people is oppressed, does racism become more prevalent? is it always there, just 'triggered' by external stimuli?

My opinion: Really, America is lucky the hard points of our country are so caught up in the daily struggle. Lucky they are fighting themselves, lucky the general poor population is lobotomized with crack (and likely heroine) and lucky mainstream rap is about sex, drugs, violence.

Then again, luck can also be just a fool's perception of manipulation.

If the ghettos realized what they were, a revolution would ensue. A bloody one, at that. Our government better hope Tupac is dead, imo.

Don't rightly know what to say about that. I guess what I gather from your comment is that for the most part, the vices of the poor have kept them occupied and not concentrating on how bad they really have it. To me, that would seem to be by design. I've often thought that black people have tremendous power to affect change if they are willing to work towards it, the same as anyone else. It almost seems to me that they are being drugged on purpose, to take them out of the equation. The same could be said of all of our poor, I suppose.

I really appreciate your thought-provoking contributions, Shanerz. You've helped me look at this document in a different light and you've made a difference in my life today, as corny as that may sound.

In retrospect the Black Panthers had unreasonable requests. As a whole the 10 point plan seems to be a request for the Federal Government to surrender to the Black Panther party. As a young person it was somewhat seductive, especially the guns and rebelliousness, but now it is obviously the work of someone who didn't think out fully the consequences of his thoughts.

1 & 2 of the plan are not compatible...either you want to be free to determine your own destiny or you want full employment provided by the Federal Government; you can't have both. The only option that satisfies both demands would be for the Federal system to submit to panther authority within the communities the Panthers have claimed authority. Unless their is some critical information missing, this request is beyond comprehension to me.

In Sri Lanka, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, a group that rose up around the same time as the BPP and for the same reasons apparently, was able to accomplish the impossible for a while, whereby the Sinhalese Majority provided all critical facilities for the Northern Tamils, but the LTTE was the boss within Tamil areas. That didn't work well for the LTTE because it is false...Prabakaran wanted power and to control things that were not his to control. He met a violent end and the Tamils who remained with him were used as human shields to block Sri Lankan gunfire at the very end.

I am not critical of people's hopes and dreams, but some things lead to destruction and the history is full of examples. What the Panthers say they want is reasonable, but not the terms and conditions it demands. I just provided one case study that is recent to illustrate how the whole story ends.

Originally posted by KSPigpen
The healthcare seems to be on the way to working itself out, and I certainly can't blame anyone for wanting access to healthcare,

If you mean the system as status quo, then I really have to disagree. There will be a revolution by 2020 if this stuff isn't fixed. Fact is, costs are climbing. Fact is, costs won't stop climbing. Competition brings down costs and adds opportunity for all consumers.

Sad, in my eyes, that the public option is going. This was the socialism I like to advocate. Not all people without coverage are exploiters. Doctors won't let a sick man die. Doctors will always get paid, in full, at the expense of anyone. It's already all socialist.

I suppose I often buy into the fantasy that a knight on a white horse, or a tall, dark stranger will come rescue the country from the mess we've created, but it just never works out that way.

The minority, us, know things are borked. The idea of things being as easy as possible is only natural. Detrimental, if unchecked, in our society, but natural.

I guess when I read it, it made me picture a completely separate nation of black people. Again, I'll really need to find out why I think the way I do, but I truly appreciate your interpretation.

See the way I see it is this movement aims to get them out of the state they are living in now.

Anything they say that seems to be demanding something, to me, is just a facade. I mean, no one wants to admit they are powerless. No one wants to beg for help. And this is exactly what I see this declaration as. Nothing to be ashamed of, imo, it's not their fault... but I aint in their shoes. I have been through similar situations, as Im sure we all have if we think about it - likely, nothing near as hard - but, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't react the same.

I would put money on the idea that if they were afforded the ability to fair education, fair health care, fair employment opportunity that they would be more than willing to drop the act and get along with the rest of us.

The sad part about this is that people always die trying to achieve this goal.

Anyway, if they try to take over America after this... well, you can about imagine the results - so can they, they ain't dumb.

So, not to offend, just to learn...are you advocating a mix of ideals?

I wont even begin to say I know all the answers. But, from where I stand, yes.

You can't be a humanitarian and be anything but socialist. Medicare, medicaid, hospices (well, not typically) are all socialist. When you give aide to starving kids, you are being socialist.

And most of us are, at least, a little pro-human rights.

Do you think that the 'unemployment' system we have in individual states now is Socialist?

Well, philosophically, it is. A pure capitalistic society would pay-as-you-earn. These payments HAVE to come out of somewhere. And it does, it comes out of taxes - which is a socialist concept in and of itself. It isn't oh I made that, it's mine. This will go to state roads, military spending, bailouts, e When the gov starts stealing those tax dollars, it basically becomes fascist.

Maybe thinking like that is why people live under bridges.

It's utter ignorance, from where I stand, to say they had and have the same chance as I. But then again, people wouldn't agree with my philosophy. The only reason I say it's ignorance is because MOST people really don't have even the slightest clue as to how these parts of their country work.

I'd love to see the vast majority walk through South Central Los Angelas. I can see their reaction now to the bang bang, "OMG RUN!" or "these people need help." Sadly, they'd probably just forget about it within hours.

I really see a strong parallel here between these Ten Points and the efforts of the founding fathers to rid themselves of the burdens imposed by the Bankers in England.

I can see the correlation, and the intent to do so, as well. But my first reaction was they just want the life the brunt of us have in the country.

I can't help but wonder if it has the same result though, or if the folks present more of the appearance of self-service than of community involvement and support.

You should really listen to some Tupac. His message was simple: The ghettos are controlled. They need to stop fighting eachother.

Immortal Technique will never start saying stuff about his cars, his house, his bling. Well, at least until he starts lying.

When a people is oppressed, does racism become more prevalent? is it always there, just 'triggered' by external stimuli?

Is it always there? No. Just picture yourself as living in absolutely terrible conditions. No guaranteed food. No guaranteed clean water. No guaranteed job to get these basic needs. Poor shelter. No electricity. And every third day - in some places, never - you see one person of a different skin color living in the same conditions as you. Then you see, or usually hear about, the other color boss-type hasseling your buddy's dad for payment.

Or you hear about predominantly (insert different color here) American government makin profits by slangin drugs on your street corners - effectively holding their "class" down.

Wait til they find out that is intentional and they are using it to scare Middle America. Just wait til Middle America learns about it. Actually, Middle America probably won't believe it. lol

Don't rightly know what to say about that. I guess what I gather from your comment is that for the most part, the vices of the poor have kept them occupied and not concentrating on how bad they really have it.

You answered yerself:

To me, that would seem to be by design. It almost seems to me that they are being drugged on purpose, to take them out of the equation.

And, imo, to keep middle america working hard at their daily, mostly, slavish jobs. Someone will replace it if you quit

But, really, seeing the topics around here (Audit the Fed, Sibel Edmonds, Financial collapse summary, etc.) which aren't covered in MSM news... do you think even "something as small as alcohol" has nothing to do with that? I wouldn't ever say don't go unwind if you want to, but I can see it.


[edit on 3-9-2009 by shanerz]

Ran out of room and wanted to finish one thing and say thanks:

Do you think that the 'unemployment' system we have in individual states now is Socialist?

Well, philosophically, it is. A pure capitalistic society would pay-as-you-earn. These payments HAVE to come out of somewhere. And it does, it comes out of taxes - which is a socialist concept in and of itself. It isn't oh I made that, it's mine. This will go to state roads, military spending, bailouts, e When the gov starts stealing those tax dollars, it basically becomes fascist.

Your tax cash goes to things such as bailouts, war funding, and things like roads. Even if you don't want to pay CEOs, support the war, or drive an automobile. You are paying for another's benefit. Socialism.

And I wanted to say thanks for the open discussion, and for giving me your point of view on the issue. I won't claim I'm right, nor would I call you an idiot for believing anything you do.

If you believe they are looking to over on us, and I'm wrong, and they do over on us - you saved us.

reply to post by shanerz

If you mean the system as status quo, then I really have to disagree. There will be a revolution by 2020 if this stuff isn't fixed. Fact is, costs are climbing. Fact is, costs won't stop climbing. Competition brings down costs and adds opportunity for all consumers.
Sad, in my eyes, that the public option is going. This was the socialism I like to advocate. Not all people without coverage are exploiters. Doctors won't let a sick man die. Doctors will always get paid, in full, at the expense of anyone. It's already all socialist.

No, I didn't mean the status quo. I know that's broken. What I meant was that I really expect to see some reform in that area. One way or another. I think the jury is still out on whether it will improve anything, but I definitely think it will change.

See the way I see it is this movement aims to get them out of the state they are living in now.

Anything they say that seems to be demanding something, to me, is just a facade. I mean, no one wants to admit they are powerless. No one wants to beg for help. And this is exactly what I see this declaration as. Nothing to be ashamed of, imo, it's not their fault... but I aint in their shoes. I have been through similar situations, as Im sure we all have if we think about it - likely, nothing near as hard - but, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't react the same.

I would put money on the idea that if they were afforded the ability to fair education, fair health care, fair employment opportunity that they would be more than willing to drop the act and get along with the rest of us.

The sad part about this is that people always die trying to achieve this goal.

Anyway, if they try to take over America after this... well, you can about imagine the results - so can they, they ain't dumb.

I think so many would argue that they already have as 'fair' of access to these things as anyone else these days, but A lot of people, myself included, have a hard time seeing things through someone els'e eyes.

I have to agree about the lack of willingness to admit powerlessness. I'm in the same boat most of the time. The 'facade' you speak of, to me is the same as 'posturing' or 'threatening'...and I guess I just don't see the sense in making a demand, or a threat, if you are not willing to back it up with action. At the same time, I understand that 'action' in a direction that this document implies would be fraught with much death and suffering.

I wont even begin to say I know all the answers. But, from where I stand, yes.

You can't be a humanitarian and be anything but socialist. Medicare, medicaid, hospices (well, not typically) are all socialist. When you give aide to starving kids, you are being socialist.

And most of us are, at least, a little pro-human rights.

I appreciate your willingness to state your beliefs here. It often surprises me how so many people will throw that label around like it is such a dangerous or evil way to be...all things in moderations, I suppose. I believe that there has to be some balance somewhere. Feed the kids, help those that need it, but encourage self-sufficiency to a certain extent. Not, isolationism, just equal contribution....or as close to it as we could get.

Well, philosophically, it is. A pure capitalistic society would pay-as-you-earn. These payments HAVE to come out of somewhere. And it does, it comes out of taxes - which is a socialist concept in and of itself. It isn't oh I made that, it's mine. This will go to state roads, military spending, bailouts, e When the gov starts stealing those tax dollars, it basically becomes fascist.

So, given your observation, would I be correct in my assumption that you see some fascist direction in our current situation? That seems like a word that even has a much more 'evil' connotation, and I suppose rightfully so, if it implies the government misappropriating tax revenue.

MOST people really don't have even the slightest clue as to how these parts of their country work.

I'd love to see the vast majority walk through South Central Los Angelas. I can see their reaction now to the bang bang, "OMG RUN!" or "these people need help." Sadly, they'd probably just forget about it within hours.

Stereotyping is what many of us do best. It's hard to accept that a person cannot change their circumstances if they try. If they live in poverty, they must be at fault...they must have done something wrong. It's not a common idea expressed among other ethnic groups that ghettos are that way because of the government. I would even think that some people believe that the government has HELPED people by providing low cost housing. It seems to me like, it's not much different than taking a bunch of people and dumping them on an island and forgetting about them.

Is it always there? No. Just picture yourself as living in absolutely terrible conditions. No guaranteed food. No guaranteed clean water. No guaranteed job to get these basic needs. Poor shelter. No electricity. And every third day - in some places, never - you see one person of a different skin color living in the same conditions as you. Then you see, or usually hear about, the other color boss-type hasseling your buddy's dad for payment.

Or you hear about predominantly (insert different color here) American government makin profits by slangin drugs on your street corners - effectively holding their "class" down.

Wait til they find out that is intentional and they are using it to scare Middle America. Just wait til Middle America learns about it. Actually, Middle America probably won't believe it. lol

I get what you're saying on this one. I've always believed that racism was hard-wired into all of us and that it takes actual WORK on our part to overcome it. I have NO concept of what life is like on the other side of the coin, but the more I think about it, the more I can see where times in my life, bias and prejudice has followed my perceptions of wrong doing, or even just a lack of willingness on my part to see things from outside of my programming.
You mention middle America and it really makes me wonder the motivation behind shielding the population from the conditions of the people in our ghettos, and the plight of various ethnic groups. I want so much to believe that racism is gone, but I know it's not. What is the motivation in keeping the public from knowing what is going on there?

Your tax cash goes to things such as bailouts, war funding, and things like roads. Even if you don't want to pay CEOs, support the war, or drive an automobile. You are paying for another's benefit. Socialism.

You will not be accused of making that difficult for me to understand.


You've been incredibly helpful and I am in your debt.

Originally posted by KSPigpen
At the same time, I understand that 'action' in a direction that this document implies would be fraught with much death and suffering.

Sadly, yes - but so was our revolution from Britain. Are we better off for it? imo, yes. Would they be better off, in their eyes? Hate to say it, but I'd be a hypocrite if I said no.

It often surprises me how so many people will throw that label around like it is such a dangerous or evil way to be...

Well, socialism leads to fascism. Like capitalism leads to emperialism. People shouldn't be afraid of socialism, but when you grow up living under the programming that communists are out to kill you, it's easy for people to blame and hate that side. They allowed the system to round them up into hating other countries through lies. The people they were afraid of were tyrants, totalitarians. Not communists.

all things in moderations, I suppose.

I believe that there has to be some balance somewhere. Feed the kids, help those that need it, but encourage self-sufficiency to a certain extent.

Well, hands down, the best aspect of capitalism is the incentive to work hard = nice things. No questions. This is why America held the status of world leader. The sad part happens when people only care about that stuff that breaks down or becomes boring in a short period of time.

Not, isolationism, just equal contribution....or as close to it as we could get.

People are just going to have to face it. We live in a world, we need to work as a world... together. Now are we going to go into it under corporatism (fascism) or socialism (communism). 6 billion people won't accept full impirialism (capitalism). Nationalistic socialism has my vote. Humane competition. Fight hard, then shake hands.

But, the truth is, the path we walk now is one to corporatism. NWO isn't a joke. "1WG is inevitable, it will happen whether the people support it or not." Paraphrase by I want to say a Rockafeller

So, given your observation, would I be correct in my assumption that you see some fascist direction in our current situation?

When corporations and gov are one, it's fascism. Been reading the lobbyist threads around ere, at all?

That seems like a word that even has a much more 'evil' connotation, and I suppose rightfully so, if it implies the government misappropriating tax revenue.

Well it really doesn't fall on the gov side solely, because gov + corp = 1. And if the last 8 years hasn't showed how corporations don't give a rat's ass about us, then I dont know what will. Zeitgeist 2 shows a lot of this.

I think so many would argue that they already have as 'fair' of access to these things as anyone else these days, but A lot of people, myself included, have a hard time seeing things through someone els'e eyes.

Stereotyping is what many of us do best. It's hard to accept that a person cannot change their circumstances if they try. If they live in poverty, they must be at fault...they must have done something wrong. It's not a common idea expressed among other ethnic groups that ghettos are that way because of the government.

And this is where there is another big, 'evil', intricate problem. Gov won't tell, because they would be hypocritical. Most people see gov as good because they live good, while being told everything is ok by MSM. They grew up in relatively good conditions, so they expect everything 'out of the barnyard' is basically the same. When people talk about it to the masses, they die - fear factor.

MSM propogates this by feeding people drugs, including alcohol, so they... go to work, then go home and don't worry about anything. The people that don't do drugs are stuck in a constant argument over left and right or entertained by pointless stuff like john and kate. People working BS, stressed out jobs don't want to think when they go home - and I can't blame them. They are made into this fiasco - they have to feed their family, they have to be comfortable, et cetera. People HAVE to worry about the world, it's theirs if they want it, but they don't/can't want it.

And it far extends just the subject of ghettos. People don't know economics. They don't know how banks work. They don't know how corporations are the real power structure of the world. They dont know that corporations work both sides of a 1v1 conflict. I won't act like I know the full extent of any of this stuff, but I wouldn't be surprised if I knew more than 80% of the modern world about said stuff - just off a few Economics classes and, mainly, my own personal research. Not trying to sound elitist, cuz I know others here know way more than I do.

It seems to me like, it's not much different than taking a bunch of people and dumping them on an island and forgetting about them.

Or placing them right on a farm when the farmhands know exactly where they are to milk what little they have left.

Most of the time. The impovershed area projects are clear examples of this.

What is the motivation in keeping the public from knowing what is going on there?

I would say if the public knew the extent of the exploitation, they would demand justice. Justice means less profits - it's no real secret, nor nutjob conspiracy, that the CIA moved drugs into and around our nation in the past, why wouldn't they now? People would protest, even riot.

Keep em fighting and killin eachother and you can keep them in slave labor camps, aka prison, forever. And last, it's hard to say it isn't about racism. I don't really think it is, I think corporatism would and does do the same to me (9/11, terror, fear), but statistics would tell you different.

The US tell us we are supposed to be about everything that tries to stop this kind of crap. Do you think the mass would be happy if they knew the hypocracy/truth?

You've been incredibly helpful and I am in your debt.

Debt is proabably the biggest problem. Everything on this planet is from this planet. If anything you owe Earth, and since Earth can't take money, you can say thanks by keepin er clean/'working' and sharing "your" dirt with everything else on it. Heh, funny how the true concept of a planet is communistic in nature.