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Is Pumapunku our smoking gun?

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posted on Sep, 3 2009 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by Devino
 



Nice find... I hadn't seen these before.

Thanks.




posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 01:52 AM
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reply to post by Julie Washington
 


Here is a BBC documentary on Caral.


Google Video Link



posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 07:22 AM
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  • We have to stop assuming things out of the Bible, Enuma elis, Mahabharata etc and start researching these sites for what they are.
  • then build a complete case out of the findings, architecture, materials, pottery, use, local population history, local myths, tie ins with possible myths etc and
  • THEN treat this researched item as a researched case then put a label on and the level of research it has been applied to it naming probably something like this:
    Pumapunku item researched up to level 1

  • THEN assume anything from the Bible, or other ancient texts etc. in order to put this piece of puzzle where it supposedly belongs.

    By using preconceived theories that may be or may not be wrong we are missing out in interesting ways to solve the puzzle.
    We have to go back to drawing board. A blank drawing board and start completely from the beginning, in order for our research to be meaningful and present solutions.

    In the initial documentary about Pumapunku a very interesting piece of information was shown.
    A design technique those ancient builders had to construct outposts, habitats, etc. Premanufactured blocks that slided and locked in to place next to each other to form a construction.
    We have to research this like an architect and a engineer would in order to draft digital mock ups then use them then to test possible theories of how the ruins came to rest in their present state to find out what kind of forces could have destroyed these constructions.
    By simply cutting and pasting verses from ancient texts, as a method of research or everyone posting his wild theories we just flood the solution space (this forum) with wrong assumptions and steer peoples thoughts away from meaningful research that an individual ought to be thinking it should be done in order to understand at what we are looking at.

    Accepting preconceived theories and wild conspiracies with no proof whatsoever as supposed facts, is not just a sign of laziness but that there is something fundamental wrong with our current society, like we are just waiting for someone with a nice piece of theoretical fiction that we can all agree on and then get over with the whole thing without having to put anything to the test, then move on to the next mystery that can hold our short attention span.
    This is not the way things supposed to evolve in a civilized society with actual thinking beings that look for the truth.
    Imagine some of our most enlightened ancestors doing the same thing, where would we be today? Probably already extinct.


    [edit on 4-9-2009 by spacebot]



  • posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 10:12 AM
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    reply to post by Devino
     



    Thanks for the video link. I hadn't seen that either.

    The more I learn about ancient discoveries the more upset I become.

    With GE we can find thousands and thousands of sites that are in need of research. And it appears all these discoveries to be made will not happen in my lifetime. Along with coverups by certain groups, the process remains slow.

    How in the world can we devote enough people and money to really research these lost civilizations properly? It's mind blowing.



    posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 10:21 AM
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    Originally posted by spacebot

    We have to research this like an architect and a engineer would in order to draft digital mock ups then use them then to test possible theories of how the ruins came to rest in their present state to find out what kind of forces could have destroyed these constructions.


    The region is in the Andes mountains. The Andes mountains are prone to earthquakes, just as California is. Given a period of 2,000 years or 2500 years, they probably suffered several major earthquakes (and I'm sure if you were there and knew about geology, you could find the evidences. I don't know about looking for earthquakes on Google Earth (though you can see fault lines), but I do know you can see results on the ground.



    posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:12 PM
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    Guessing here... what if they used the 'lego block' style because of the earth quakes? Could this be the first earth quake proof house ever?
    I wish I'd have mythbusters resources or something so I could test how well that kind of contruct would work against quakes.



    posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 12:24 PM
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    There is not even a meaningful way to remotely study all these ruins with the aid of today's digital technology and for us to come to conclusions. It is a shame since so many people have so much free time literally idling about the internet doing practically nothing. I wish there was a way to visualize the tools and procedures people would have to use to remotely work on identifying sites like Pumapunku and determine their full architectural outline and identifying their geological history. If anyone has any ideas he is welcome to drop us a hint.

    In the google video "The lost pyramids of Caral" the narrator poses a very interesting question. In this day and age we can identify the social structure that needs to exist in order for things to be done in an enormous scale, like cities to be built and who gets to do what. I would find it surprising if the same social structure didn't exist back in the days for ex. Pumapunku came to be, which I believe it is not dated only some centuries BC or AC but maybe way older than the Pyramids and way past the mark of 10.000 years. New evidence hints that south American structures at least the oldest ones discovered might have not been dated properly. From what we can glean from several sources, mainly documentaries and interdependent research websites, the kind of architecture we are possibly dealing with almost globally, from China to Japan to Middle East to Mediterranean, to Africa and to North Americas, and most of it bare great similarities, not just the same kind of hierarchy of social structure and expertise had to present at many many thousands of years ago in order for these monuments to be built, but also the way and the locations the they have been constructed at, hint that air travel might have been present at that age, no matter how surprising this may sound.

    We really can't understand why so many archeological locations especially in Northern America are located at such inaccessible locations but if we put forth an hypothesis of a global civilization maybe some more light could be shed for the reason these sites had to be built there and maybe we get a hint for their possible use. Maybe not all sites that are dated more than 10.000 years old were megalithic. Although it is understandable why such non megalithic sites are more difficult to be found, unlike several sites in India although most are underground thus the reason they were preserved, yet still many of them puzzling since they appear riddled with strange artifacts and radioactivity. Maybe going megalithic was not the norm but was reserved for a structure to serve specific purposes.

    [edit on 4-9-2009 by spacebot]

    reply to post by PsykoOps
     


    In case the "lego block" theory is true I believe it had to be used in order to achieve rapid deployment of structures and those kind of structures might have been military in nature. If this theory can hold any water then why not more structures should exist of that style than the ones we have already discovered but difficult to find since they may have been reduced to rubble from some events. Pumapunku case displays a city that isn't destroyed in its major part or at least some big structures are still left standing.

    [edit on 4-9-2009 by spacebot]



    posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 01:24 PM
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    reply to post by Julie Washington
     


    I too have become upset over how ancient civilizations are regarded, like they were inferior to us today, which indicates that we are the inferior ones. Thoughts like these will cloud our perspective so by looking for who, why and how information is being skewed and suppressed I put limits on what I will learn. I have found it far more effective to drop these feelings of anger and try to understand what is out there.

    Not all scientists are the same and many of them are working on what is probably considered fringe science. There are dig sites all over the world producing evidence that contradicts established preconception and seems to corroborate many of the ancient myths and even some biblical events. I feel that there is so much information out there that we will be unable to cover all if it in our lifetime.

    Personally I feel there is more than good reason to take a closer look at these ancient myths and legends, like spacebot mentioned, and use them as a guide to help us understand our history.



    posted on Sep, 4 2009 @ 04:07 PM
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    Yes, I totally agree with you. My husband doesn't understand why I spend hours and hours day and night researching, pinpointing sites on GE, learning as much about ancient history as I can read.

    I'm on a quest for information. But why? Why am I compelled to spend so much time. I'm not in the field and I'm certainly not going to make any discovery (except personal knowledge).

    I also believe there are no myths. They are all true stories. As time unfolds and the myths are proven true, I wonder how long it will take before they re-write the history books.

    If I had my life to do over - I would have been an archeologist. (Did I even spell that right? lol)

    I love the "Stargates are Real" thread started by Undo and became a team effort with Zorgan. I read all 200 pages and learned more about ancient history than I could ever have in a classroom. Some skeptics come in a dis it because they think it's about the movie Stargate. But it has historical ancient research that I think is so important, that they should write a book about it. It's worth the read!



    posted on Sep, 5 2009 @ 06:54 AM
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    Originally posted by Extralien
    I was considerably surprised to discover that there are no forests, not even clumps of trees. It did not take me long to find out why there are no trees. The entire region is so high above sea level that trees just do not grow. It is all mostly grasslands.

    The triangular marking here reminds me of many of the lines in Nazca;
    These may help us to understand the immense culture and civilisation that once lived here so long ago.

    My point is that Pumapunku could very well be the answer to many of the other sites on Earth. It could prove to be the origin of the Pyramids in Egypt, the answer to our lost history..to the fact that we were once a vast culture that was spread around the globe that collapsed for some reason.

    Either that or we were visited by beings from other planets who helped us, or we built all this and left Earth to venture to the stars for safety due to some event that destroyed the vast majority of the history we are missing.

    We are not alone, we have been here before and we will continue to be until we decide otherwise.


    Very interesting thread about one of many mind-blowing stone structures here on Earth Extralien, thanks for posting.
    S&F

    I have looked into the wikipedia site Byrd provided, and because of that it’s again always astonishing to see how our mainstream scholars stubbornly try continuously explain how this one and many other amazing stone structures too where build with the really primitive tools and techniques they are convinced they were used for it.

    They stubbornly ignore and rejects for instance other important historical information that clearly showing that there were indeed in history other earlier cultures who had pretty advanced technologies themselves or where in contact with extraterrestrials.

    I am convinced it is a mix of the things you are saying here and more.


    Originally posted by Extralien
    Either that or we were visited by beings from other planets who helped us, or we built all this and left Earth to venture to the stars for safety due to some event that destroyed the vast majority of the history we are missing.

    We are not alone, we have been here before and we will continue to be until we decide otherwise.


    Regarding your question, Is Pumapunku our smoking gun, I think that it could be, and not only puma punku.
    But so long TPTB are in charge with the big media in their pockets and the mainstream scientists site refuse to study seriously that other historical information it will take a long time when it will become a smoking gun, but one time, the gun will smoking.


    More of what I called important historical information is posted in these very interesting and informative threads.

    The Baalbek foundation stones.
    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    Proof: Advanced Ancient Indian Civilization existed
    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    Aliens of Ancient China
    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    Ancient Extraterrestrials
    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    The 10,000 year old civilization which was more advanced than us
    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    Aborigines and Extraterrestrials
    www.abovetopsecret.com...

    Forbidden Egyptology
    www.abovetopsecret.com...


    [edit on 5/9/09 by spacevisitor]



    posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 10:28 PM
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    In the last picture before the YouTube link in the OP, it seems that quite the excavation has gone on to unearth these monuments.

    I theorize that below the soil on many of those farms and plots of land, you may find more which suggests ruined buildings.

    Puma Punku is quite an unusual site.

    Can anyone confirm much about how it's too hard to cut with anything but diamonds?



    posted on Sep, 10 2009 @ 10:59 PM
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    You can cut it with copper saws apparently if you can trust what people on ATS say
    It just takes man power + sand I believe it was to grind it properly. Not sure if this would leave any specific marks that could be identified on the ruins. If I'd have my way I'd go there with my macro lens to take some close ups of possible tool marks etc.



    posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 11:37 AM
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    Howdy Spacevisitor, long time no read




    They stubbornly ignore and rejects for instance other important historical information that clearly showing that there were indeed in history other earlier cultures who had pretty advanced technologies themselves or where in contact with extraterrestrials.


    Hans: That is your interpretation, science doesn't accept what you find valid because the concensus is that the evidence is either invalid or misinterpreted.

    From an Archaeological point of view their is nothing to point to spacemen - just smart humans

    I'm coming in at the tail end of this discussion but will catch up by tomorrow and will be able to comment in more detail.



    posted on Sep, 11 2009 @ 03:53 PM
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    From archeological point of view do they take into account the myths and legends of the native people? Those often talk about gods / aliens helping out. Could be that it was some smart humans who posed as gods or something of course...



    posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 01:13 AM
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    reply to post by PsykoOps
     


    Legends are essentially hearsay from a long, long time ago. Most cultures tried to explain where various technology came from. As to where they got fire, language, crops, bows etc. The legends no longer recalled the name or how they really arrived. So stories were invented to explain them. Given our nature we tend to put human traits into gods, animals and inantimate objects.

    Wallah you have gods and those gods have strangely human motivations. Now some legends do have a basis in fact, many do not. You can get a 'second' opinon or backup using the archaeological record.

    Many people's legends say they were created on the land or have been there 'forever', archaeology says they haven't.



    [edit on 12/9/09 by Hanslune]



    posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 01:19 AM
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    so 4000 years ago some people settled there and still live there not realizing that its built pre iceage ?

    and the same goes for the pyramids in egypt ?



    posted on Sep, 12 2009 @ 08:42 AM
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    Originally posted by Hanslune
    Howdy Spacevisitor, long time no read


    Hello Hans.


    Originally posted by Hanslune

    They stubbornly ignore and rejects for instance other important historical information that clearly showing that there were indeed in history other earlier cultures who had pretty advanced technologies themselves or where in contact with extraterrestrials.

    Hans: That is your interpretation, science doesn't accept what you find valid because the concensus is that the evidence is either invalid or misinterpreted.


    Well, I am fully aware of that, but because they interpret that as invalid or misinterpreted evidence, doesn’t proof in any way that their view on stone building sites like for instance this Puma Punku site is therefore the right one.


    Originally posted by Hanslune
    From an Archaeological point of view there is nothing to point to spacemen - just smart humans


    Right, and that is precisely their Achilles heel, because how on Earth can those archaeological scientists even today completely ignore the momentarily “Great Pyramid” like pile of evidence for an Extraterrestrial presence right now here on Earth and therefore logically also in our history.

    Then about the following below, do you know what kind of tools and methods where used for that according the archaeological scientists ?


    In assembling the walls of Pumapunku, each stone was finely cut to interlock with the surrounding stones and the blocks fit together like a puzzle, forming load-bearing joints without the use of mortar. One common engineering technique involves cutting the top of the lower stone at a certain angle, and placing another stone on top of it which was cut at the same angle.

    The precision with which these angles have been utilized to create flush joints is indicative of a highly sophisticated knowledge of stone-cutting and a thorough understanding of descriptive geometry.

    Many of the joints are so precise that not even a razor blade will fit between the stones. Much of the masonry is characterized by accurately cut rectilinear blocks of such uniformity that they could be interchanged for one another while maintaining a level surface and even joints.

    The blocks were so precisely cut as to suggest the possibility of prefabrication and mass production, technologies far in advance of the Tiwanaku’s Incan successors hundreds of years later


    Just as also happened with the building of the Pyramids in Egypt right, isn’t that a strange coincidence?

    Then another example of monumental proportions of the stones and the method by which they were transported via a steep incline from a quarry near Lake Titicaca roughly 20 miles away.
    Do the archaeological scientists really believe that those stones where transported the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes?


    Due to the monumental proportions of the stones, the method by which they were transported to Pumapunku has been a topic of interest since the temple's discovery. The stones are believed to have been transported up a steep incline from a quarry near Lake Titicaca roughly 20 miles away. Some of the blocks are said to weigh in the range of 100–130 tons.



    One notable block has been measured at 36 feet long, 16 feet wide and 6 feet thick.[5] Archaeologists believe that this was accomplished by the large labor force of ancient Tiwanaku. Several theories have been proposed as to how this labor force transported the stones although these theories remain speculative. Two of the more common proposals involve the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes.


    Source; en.wikipedia.org...

    Can you understand my problem here?


    [edit on 12/9/09 by spacevisitor]

    [edit on 12/9/09 by spacevisitor]



    posted on Sep, 13 2009 @ 11:47 AM
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    Howdy Space visitor




    Right, and that is precisely their Achilles heel, because how on Earth can those archaeological scientists even today completely ignore the momentarily “Great Pyramid” like pile of evidence for an Extraterrestrial presence right now here on Earth and therefore logically also in our history.


    Hans: Very easily the evidence doesn’t support that conclusion.




    Then about the following below, do you know what kind of tools and methods where used for that according the archaeological scientists ?

    Just as also happened with the building of the Pyramids in Egypt right, isn’t that a strange coincidence?



    Hans: PP was built several thousand years later, so it isn’t much of coincidence. People who live in places without large amount of wood tended to go to stone and mud brick for construction – they did so because they didn’t know how to make fired clay brick or good concrete. By the time PP was being constructed the Egyptians had stopped their own method of stone construction and adopted the Roman method which used concrete and using stone as a fascade.




    Then another example of monumental proportions of the stones and the method by which they were transported via a steep incline from a quarry near Lake Titicaca roughly 20 miles away.


    Hans: They are rather small compared to what other cultures moved. Although your incredulous dismissal is noted it really doesn’t overlay the fact that men can move heavy objects. They also make GREAT stone masons.




    Do the archaeological scientists really believe that those stones where transported the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes?


    Hans: Yes, your alternative is? Aliens or spacemen who just happen to be masons and into inefficient stone work? Seriously, why would they do that (I'm allowed that comment as you used one argument from incredulity)




    Can you understand my problem here?


    Hans: Space, you are looking for hard evidence of aliens, having none you are trying to push masonry as evidence. I would recommend a thorough search of the subject, especially the archaeological and engineering journals of the 1920-1940 where I believe this was looked at extensively. Or ask a large number of current masons if they could do that level of work. If you access to ProQuest you can search there or search thru the older threads at the Hall of Ma'at.



    posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 10:22 AM
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    Originally posted by Hanslune

    Originally posted by spacevisitor
    Then about the following below, do you know what kind of tools and methods where used for that according the archaeological scientists ?

    Just as also happened with the building of the Pyramids in Egypt right, isn’t that a strange coincidence?



    Hans: PP was built several thousand years later, so it isn’t much of coincidence. People who live in places without large amount of wood tended to go to stone and mud brick for construction – they did so because they didn’t know how to make fired clay brick or good concrete.


    Hans, you forgot to answer my question about what kind of tools and methods where used for building PP according the archaeological scientists?

    Then regarding your posted remarks here, I assume/hope you don’t compare those unique building techniques with some stone and mud brick construction’s from people who didn’t know how to make fired clay brick or good concrete is it?
    And another thing, what you said there is nothing more than an assumption right?


    Originally posted by Hanslune
    By the time PP was being constructed the Egyptians had stopped their own method of stone construction and adopted the Roman method which used concrete and using stone as a fascade.


    I meant with that strange coincidence the fact that, first there is a period were on so many places around the world, may I say, pretty advanced building techniques where used, and suddenly, no matter where they were used, the building stopped, and all that knowledge disappeared completely without any traces left, isn’t that very strange indeed?
    Precisely as it happened during the building sequence of the pyramids, as if they first where capable of building something like this,



    and then where hardly capable of building something like this.




    Originally posted by Hanslune

    Originally posted by spacevisitor
    Then another example of monumental proportions of the stones and the method by which they were transported via a steep incline from a quarry near Lake Titicaca roughly 20 miles away.


    Hans: They are rather small compared to what other cultures moved. Although your incredulous dismissal is noted it really doesn’t overlay the fact that men can move heavy objects. They also make GREAT stone masons.


    You are right, but I find the provided/claimed evidence by the so called scholars for how and with what tools those GREAT stone masons of where we speak where build, wafer-thin and absolutely not convincing.


    Originally posted by Hanslune

    Originally posted by spacevisitor
    Do the archaeological scientists really believe that those stones were transported the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes?


    Hans: Yes, your alternative is? Aliens or spacemen who just happen to be masons and into inefficient stone work? Seriously, why would they do that (I'm allowed that comment as you used one argument from incredulity)


    My alternative is, as Skyfloating describe it so clear in his thread “Ancient Extraterrestrials”


    Originally posted by Skyfloating
    The "Ancient Astronaut Theory" (AAT), also called the "Paleocontact Theory" by scientists such as Carl Sagan say that earth has been visited by ETs and/or technologically superior humans in very ancient times and that these events have been recorded as encounters with "Gods", "Flying Chariots", "Wars of Worlds" in ancient mythologies, legends and religions.


    www.abovetopsecret.com...


    Originally posted by Hanslune
    Hans: Space, you are looking for hard evidence of aliens, having none you are trying to push masonry as evidence.


    Hans, although your incredulous dismissal is noted, I don’t need any pushing in order to use that kind of unique masonry as proof for existing aliens but if you mean by “hard evidence” a piece or such of an ET craft or one of its pilots, so then, yes you are right, but for all the rest available evidence regarding that phenomenon, you are totally wrong.


    Originally posted by Hanslune
    I would recommend a thorough search of the subject, especially the archaeological and engineering journals of the 1920-1940 where I believe this was looked at extensively.


    Thanks for recommending that
    may I recommend you to do the same, regarding the so called ,UFO phenomenon, better the Extraterrestrial phenomenon.

    You could if you want start here.

    It are some very good and informative threads of IsaacKoi;

    Free UFO Researcher Starter Pack posted on 29/9/07 @ 06:45

    www.abovetopsecret.com...&addstar=1&on=3561021#pid3561021


    Top 100 UFO Cases - Revealed! posted on 21/1/08 @ 11:39

    www.abovetopsecret.com...


    Best UFO cases - Experts' short lists posted on 17/2/08 @ 15:21

    www.abovetopsecret.com...&addstar=1&on=4019296#pid4019296


    Best cases - Rockefeller Briefing Document posted on 31/3/08 @ 13:28

    www.abovetopsecret.com...



    posted on Sep, 14 2009 @ 11:55 AM
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    Howdy Space

    I apology for the brief answers I try to get more indepth in a few days.



    Hans, you forgot to answer my question about what kind of tools and methods where used for building PP according the archaeological scientists?


    Hans: What were you asking, the one outlined before that you are well aware of and have already rejected. What evidence would you not reject?




    Then regarding your posted remarks here, I assume/hope you don’t compare those unique building techniques with some stone and mud brick construction’s from people who didn’t know how to make fired clay brick or good concrete is it?


    Hans: They cannot both be unique and shared by all cultures. Here is question for you. Who were the best workers of granite and marble? The ancients or the classical period?




    And another thing, what you said there is nothing more than an assumption right?


    Hans: Your position as I understand it is rejection of the evidence in favour of an assumption that men cannot do stuff and had to alien help – for which there is not evidence. I’ll go with the evidence.




    I meant with that strange coincidence the fact that, first there is a period were on so many places around the world, may I say, pretty advanced building techniques where used, and suddenly, no matter where they were used, the building stopped, and all that knowledge disappeared completely without any traces left, isn’t that very strange indeed?



    Hans: the building didn’t stop – if it did the classical Romans, Greeks, Chinese and Indians would be surprised to hear that. The knowledge didn’t disappear. Compare Greek classical statues made of Marble to Egyptian ones, the Greek are superior. Compare the labor needed for the Roman road network vs the pyramids – the roads took up a more material and time – and were useful.



    Precisely as it happened during the building sequence of the pyramids, as if they first where capable of building something like this



    Hans: Nope they started with a primitive step pyramid thenworked up to the Gizamids over three generations and then over a longer periods of time started to make smaller ones and finally switched over to tombs cut into rock-to avoid tomb robbers. You have to look at the economic and historical developments of that period.



    You are right, but I find the provided/claimed evidence by the so called scholars for how and with what tools those GREAT stone masons of where we speak where build, wafer-thin and absolutely not convincing.


    Hans: Again you reject but don’t explain why?




    My alternative is, as Skyfloating describe it so clear in his thread “Ancient Extraterrestrials”


    Hans: so why did aliens use inefficient stone to build tombs and religious structure for humans? Seems rather strange to come all that way and teach them obsolete masonry techniques instead of how to use concrete- why not something more useful like germ theory, sanitation, better farming techniques, metallurgy, etc etc----instead the aliens told them how to use rock to bash out rocks to stack together...Did aliens teach the Chinese how to make porcelin? The Japanese Jomon pottery 14,000 years ago?

    Thanks Space I’m familiar with UFO issue. Unless directly related to the subject at hand I’ll leave that to the UFO board




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