Can’t one be a CREATIONIST without ALWAYS dragging the TWO (Contradictory) Paleo-Hebrew Creation MYTHS (in Genesis) into the discussion EVERY SINGLE Time?

My question is actually a very simple one:

Why is it that (almost) all English-speaking persons who call themselves ‘Creationists’ consistently drag YHWH (i.e. Yahweh, the clan god of post-Exilic Israel, whose priests –many of which had been exiled into Assyria, Egype and Babylon where they picked up their weird vocabulary and raw material—were the ones eventually responsible for what went into ‘the Bible’) and the TWO (contradictory) Hebrew Creation-Myths in the ‘Bible’ into every single ‘discussion’ of ‘Creation-Science’, --as if no other Creation Myths in the world even Exist?

This seems to be especially true when it comes to discussing ‘Evolution’ v. ‘Creation’ and what actually ‘should be taught in US public schools’ ref: the ’Origin of the Universe’ in ‘Science’ classes—in fact there are more than 6,000 Creation Myths from around the world extant today (more are being found every year, some of them still being transmitted orally by some cultures) and yet hardly ANY of our children are EVER exposed to these treasures in public schools, even for the sake of simple ‘literary comparisons’ !

Now since this whole messy subject seems to be VERY touchy for a lot of English speaking persons on ATS these days, please TRY to keep a Civil Keyboard under your Fingertips…and whenever possible, stick to the FACTS and the TEXTS to which you might refer or from which you would like to make (ahem…) ‘quotations’. Remember the ‘Bible’ was NOT written in English, so get used to the idea of translation and textual problems with foreign (especially ancient) hand copied and / or orally transmitted ‘mythical literature’.

If you are one of those persons who is non-conversant with the paleo-Hebrew scriptures in their original language (yet still calls himself a Bible Believer) please BEAR WITH those on this THREAD who might be more conversant in matters of the text(s) traditions (such as have come down to from hand written copies from antiquity) and the difficulties for 21st century persons to understand fully the original language being employed, especially on the subject of CREATION MYTHS, about which most ‘Americans’ (for whatever reasons) seem woefully ignorant.

Now if you are one of those persons who claims to ‘believe’ every word of the ‘bible’ and yet never bothered to read Genesis chapter 1:1 to Genesis chapter 2:4a (helps to use a highlighter of one colour here) and then ADD Genesis chapter 5:1-3 (same writer as 1:1) then COMPARE line for line the Creation Myth # 2 in Genesis (Chapter 2:4b to 4:26—which you can highlight with another colour highlighter of your choice), you might be in for quite a shock to your system.

You can file all this info under the heading : Things My Sunday School Teacher (or Rabbi !) Never Dared Teach Me…

To get a beginner’s intro to the material that would be discussed on this thread (and this discussion is not for theological ‘sissies’ but more for persons who REALLY want to get a the truth of this issue) a good place to start is a high school level book called
WHO WROTE THE BIBILE? By Richard Elliott Friedman, a student of the great Frank Cross of Harvard University.

Here is the ISBN Information: Paperback: 304 pages Publisher: HarperOne (March 21, 1997) Language: English ISBN-10: 0060630353 & ISBN-13: 978-0060630355 Product Dimensions: 7.9

Most newcomers to Genesis (and other Torah) material find that they have to read the first 4 chapters of Friedman’s rather over-simplified book sometimes three or four times before they ‘get it’ – not that it’s rocket science, but mainly because it’s all brand new information for them (more’s the pity !) and they end up asking themselves why their Priests, Ministers or Rabbis never EVER once told them about these things (hint: they don’t want you to know !)

[edit on 31-8-2009 by Sigismundus]

As the ‘Great Saint’ ((!) Augustine once wrote,

“There are many things in this world which are patent Falsehoods but the general run of people must be told to believe as absolute fact, and likewise there are many other things, perfectly true in every detail, which the common herd must never be told about, ever.” – from ‘The City of God’ )

Kinda sums it all up, don’t it?

Time now to check out the TWO CONTRADICTORY Creation Myths in the Book of Genesis

Creation Myth # 1 (Gen 1:1 to 2:4a) aka P-Creation Myth v. Creation Myth # 2 (Gen 2:4a to 4:26) aka JE-Creation Myth

Name of the Deity : ELOHIM trans. KJV ‘God’ (plural, govering a singular verb e.g. bara, ‘he created from zero’)

ORDER OF CREATION (non scientific, with plants being ‘created’ BEFORE the Stars or the Sun—so much for photosynthesis !)

Day 1: the heavens, earth, light, day and night. Day 2: the "Dome" (Heb, Req’iak = ‘bowl’) that separates the waters below from the waters above the Dome Day 3: dry land and vegetation are created Day 4: sun, moon, then the stars (NB: stars according to this Myth were created after the earth, vegetation sun and moon !)

Day 5: water creatures and birds. Day 6: land animals; humankind (both male and female created together ‘and he called their name ADAM). The number of human beings created is not specified. ELOHIM here gives to people "every plant yielding seed that is upon the face of all the earth for food" (Gen 1:29) -- no prohibitions. Day 7: ELOHIM rests, and blesses the 7th day.

v. Creation Myth # 2 (Gen 2:4a to 4:26)

Name of the Deity : YHWH ELOHIM trans. KJV ‘THE LORD God’
ORDER OF CREATION IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT (No ‘Days’ specified)

A Pre-Existent Earth ‘formed’ from some pre-existing matter then the Heavans ‘formed’: no rain yet but a spring would well up and water the ground, from mud, ADAM was ‘formed’ alone without Hayaa (Eve). Presence of a Garden, and a place called Qeden – ADAM is placed there by YHWH ELOHIM ...

The Garden includes Fruit Trees e.g. the tree of life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and ELOHIM instructs Lone Adam to till and keep the garden of Eden, but not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (no Eve yet !) YHWH Elohim notices that Man is alone and wants to find him a sexmate:

YHWH Elohim ‘forms’ for Adam the animals and birds and Man names them but cannot reproduce with them:
YHWH Elohim causes ADAM to fall asleep,
pulls out some flesh from his side and ‘forms’ Hayyah (‘Life Bearing’)…the story of original sin then ensues with the Talking Snake Myth…….

Why on earth would thinking persons ever take anything contained in these 2 contradictory Hebrew Morality Creation Myths as ‘Science’ to be taught to school children alongside Biology and Chemistry which makes use of such things as the Empirical Method?

well it depends on how you look at things honestly.

Personally, I myself, am a creationist. But I am not a creationist by the standard creationist belief.

My belief is that Genesis was a project by intelligent beings to populate our planet. We were created by a higher power. but not by a single god, just a higher species of beings.

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Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

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You sure can Sig, You can be a creationist all day long and nobody will give a flying flip.

But when you come along and use flame-bait tactics towards the deity we belive in, then we defend said deity and you in turn will then call us sensitive to our "myth." If you really think about it is you who is being sensitive because your minority point of view isn't the one being exalted.

Look at how you word things:

"without ALWAYS dragging the TWO (Contradictory) Paleo-Hebrew Creation MYTHS"

The fact remains - you are in the minority of what mankind believes.

Here is another one:

"consistently drag YHWH"

Again - YHWH is part of the norm and this norm has been consistent through the course of history.

Another:

"as if no other Creation Myths in the world even Exist?"

Now that is a deep question. Why do you think the teachings of Zeus didn't stick yet YHWH's did?

This is precious:

"this discussion is not for theological sissies"

Okay. I've read enough.

What is the exact purpose of belittling your peers?

Someone (forgive my lack of citation here) once said words to the effect that, the most astonishing thing about reality is that there is anything here at all. It's true.

The fact that there is anything here at all leads one to wonder how it got here.

One is tempted to answer the question by saying that it must have been created. After all, the only other option is that it has always been here.

If it was created then a creator must exist, but who created the creator? Some people say that the creator has always been here.

However, the notion that an eternal, uncreated creator has always been here, does not have more logical integrity than the notion that the reality we live in has always been here.

In fact it is a less substantial (no humor intended here) assertion from an empirical point of view.

Some religions get around the problem by welding creator and creation together and saying that the whole shebang has always existed. Even science is now starting to hint that the whole materialistic shebang might be active in a mental way, which is a similar notion.

This is a big topic.


[edit on 7-9-2009 by ipsedixit]

Sure . . . one can be. The problem is that there was no Creationism movement, nor would there be, without fundy-christianity. They "stole", for lack of a better word, the concept to push their religious agenda and try to "disprove" scientific fact.

Another book that the "bible is truth" crowd might want to check out is Friedman's "The Hidden Book of the Bible" where he takes the portions of text by the different writers/eras and combines them to show the complete stories as they were meant to be. Also delves into why the different myths were synthesized to form one "great" text.

Regardless of your beliefs, if you want creationism to be taken as a serious subject of study . . . you still need to come up with a testable/repeatable hypothesis. However, this shouldn't stop you from believing what you will.

Hi Myrtales

Perhaps you are assuming (like most 'bible believers') that the 2 contradictdory Yahwistic creation myths in Genesis 1:1 to 2:4a and 2:4b to end of chapter 4 are more 'successful' in their promulgation among the common herd than, say, the older pagan myths from whence they were taken (e.g. Enuma Elish of the Babylonians etc.) because the Genesis Yahwistic myths are somehow more 'true''---whereas 'all the other pagan myths' failed to get a longer public viewing because in some way they are 'false'--is based on an erroneous logic. And is probably more applicable to American 'believers' than the rest of the world who have a larger exposure to non-zionist belief systems.

The truth is the Genesis Yahwistic Creation Myths are only marginally more successful in terms of public awareness because the Yahwistic propaganda machine is so much older and more sophisticated via the publishing houses in the US--especially of the American English versions of the 'bible' (and getting many of the world's 'ignorant-oxen' gentiles to believe that ONLY the clan god of the Jews exists, to the exclusion of all other gods and world-views was quite a coup for this group who still have quite a foothold in the major publishing print houses, say in New York and other larger cities...

For example, when an American writer speaks of GOD, 99% of the time the reading public understands him to mean 'the clan-god of the Jews' i.e. the one in the 'Bible', and not, say, Shiva or Brahma or Zeus or Osiris or Amun Ra or the Great Spirit of the Amerindians etc.

But now we have the Internet, and more Universal messages are required to gain 'universal acceptance' and not just pro-Zionist myths stuffed down our throats as 'facts'--we are nowadays addressing the WORLD Community, 99.999 percent of which is a gentile audience (who today have much less patience in having to swallow a fake-universalist 'Zionist' (i.e. Yahwistic) Weltanschauungen (such as in the Genesis Creation Myths) than say, 'mindless' non-critical thinking persons who style themselves as 'Christians' (whatever that means !) did during the 20th century).

It's a new Day...and time to throw out the narrowminded zionist propaganda of the past, and start getting 'everyday average' people (from gradeschool age onwards) to begin finally to notice that there is a bigger world of mythic literature out there (and not just Genesis !) when discussing such a vast subject as the 'Creation' of the Physical Cosmos, which in reality goes FAR beyond the childish outdated Weltanschaung of the pre-and-post Exilic Yahwists who wrote the Genesis Myths to address their own view of the world once they had been shockingly exposed (beyond their will, i.e. in forced exile abroad) to older and far more sophisticated literature from which they borrowed so much of their vocabulary and tweeked it to their own ends.

[edit on 8-9-2009 by Sigismundus]

I can't quite remember which were what, but the two creation myths reflect the divided Israel-Judah. The first belong to Israel (the ten tribes -- 12 - Levi and Judah), I think, and the other one is courtecy of the other kingdom. The two are almost diametrical oposites. The odd couple....

Not True, I'm a "Creationalist" and have no interest whatsoever in Judeo/Christian beliefs. Not sure how you got to the conclusion all "Creationalists" are basic their beliefs on ancient marketing tools.

What would you call a person that believes not only in the teachings of the historical Jesus (or whatever his real name is) but that he actually lived? I thought a Christian. Does Jesus ever say that the accounts of Genesis are what really happened? I don't think that should be one of the stipulations for calling yourself a Christian Creationist.

I don't believe the creation accounts found in Genesis because they are so fantastic as compared to evidence. I do understand that most of the remainder of the Old Testament is basically a history book. A history book mind you with more fantastical tales that I would compare to any other culture's myth-filled accounts.

I would love to know, Sigismundus, what you believe is the true story of human and/or Earth's creation.

It would be nice, but that poorly written fairy tail also say's "slaves, obey your masters" sorry I can't quote chapter and verse but I'm sure the white power people may be among those to ask. It may be more taste full to start by asking an expert on the Bible.