I'm ashamed!

I had to skip ahead because all the juicy bits are censored!

I have had two different people challenge me this week that Freemasonry is unChristian and that Christians who become masons will go to hell.

Along with all the usual thrust and parry of well-worn arguments, something occurred to me. Masonry is just one way to tell the same story that all other religions have been trying to tell for centuries.

In my mind the masonic lectures (or parables if you will) describe the same concepts and tenets that most mainstream religions describe, except there is no religious dogma in Masonry.

It lets men of all beliefs come together without fear of judgment and study truths that we all hold dear and apply them to our lives and our faiths individually.

At it's root Masonry holds up the values that almost all religious leaders and enlightened people have tried to tell us:

1 - The soul is immortal

2 - All of us are one family with a loving and benificent Father (mother/force/entity)

3 - The most important thing we can do in our temporal lives is to lay down our prejudice and help our neighbors, indeed love our neighbors, without any expectation of reward.

To me they are beautiful lessons and have tremendously helped in my Christian faith.

But I also hold no judgment against others who don't believe it. Even if you believe differently, I love you and would help you no matter what your beliefs.

Some people should teach a class on how to snowball a thread into an unstoppable force. certain people are quite good at it.

well here, have a troll biscut.

people are people. some peoples are masons, some people are subway sandwich makers, some people are leaders of nations, some people post on ATS.

To ASS-U-ME (assume) and make judgment by casting a broad net all over an entire group of people is quite dangerous. It makes your words carry much less value and become diluted.


LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE; AFTER YOU, WHOS LAST? ITS DOOM, AND HES THE WORST KNOWN

Originally posted by daddio
First, Freemasonry is th e"farm league" FOR the Illuminati. It is the "base" of the pyramid. DUH.

That's not even very good history. In the real historical Illuminati, the three degrees of Craft Masonry were higher up in the Illuminati hierarchy. The first degree of Masonry was used by the Illuminati as their 5th degree, and the second and third degrees of Masonry were used by the Illuminati as their own 6th and 7th degrees.

Baphomet, Mahabone, Jahbuhlun, Baal, Lucifer, Satan, all the same idea. Stupid!!!

Stupid indeed.

Originally posted by ReelView
What can I say, Jesuit Priests when taking the 4th oath swearing to cut protestant babies out of their mothers bellies and smash the skulls against the wall have stated they kissed the Masonic ring on the initiators hand.

What a load of rubbish.

This is the kind of mythical detritus that Russian peasants used to justify their pogroms against the Jews (see "Blood Libel").

Seriously, some fearmonger has played you for a fool. Or you are attempting to play us for fools.

Originally posted by daddio
Baphomet, Mahabone, Jahbuhlun, Baal, Lucifer, Satan, all the same idea. Stupid!!!

.......I have been inside a Lodge and my father-in-law was a mason and we had discussed it.

What did you see inside the lodge that made you come to the conclusion that any of the above were worshiped by Freemasonry?

reply to post by 7redorbs


C'mon 7!! I just started to really get into this debate we've been having!! It's been one of the only really good conversations I've had in this forum in some time. I'd like it to continue. What's so hard about providing sourced evidence to back up your accusations? I really don't see the issue here.

Unless you don't have the sources...

Either way, don't give up on a fight if you believe your side. Regardless of my particular belief or angle, I can more appreciate someone willing to stand up for what they believe in than I can someone that cowers at the first sign of disagreement. Fighting for what you believe in shows character. Whether you're right or wrong doesn't matter in that case, since it's overshadowed by your vehemence in the belief. There's usually a reason for a belief that strong. And THAT's the really interesting part of ANY debate; learning about what people think at their cores...

Here's to the hopes of a future discourse.

TheBorg

Originally posted by Saurus

Originally posted by daddio
Baphomet, Mahabone, Jahbuhlun, Baal, Lucifer, Satan, all the same idea. Stupid!!!

.......I have been inside a Lodge and my father-in-law was a mason and we had discussed it.

What did you see inside the lodge that made you come to the conclusion that any of the above were worshiped by Freemasonry?

Maybe it was the big red guy with horns and cloven feet or the masses of red robed hooded men chanting Lucifers name, or the remains of the sacrifice draped across the masonic alter that gave the game away? ;-)

Yeah, when I was a Mason, we always opened the Lodge with the following chant:

"I wanna kill everyone /
Satan is good /
Satan is our pal"

Then we'd mutilate some stuff.

reply to post by Roark

Don't forget the blood orgies. And you have to sacrifice a Jobie or Rainbow every meeting.

Originally posted by Roark
Yeah, when I was a Mason, we always opened the Lodge with the following chant:

"I wanna kill everyone /
Satan is good /
Satan is our pal"

Then we'd mutilate some stuff.

That's strange! I'm not a mason and I start my day off with that very same chant!

YOU ARE EVIL DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEE


lol

thats just useless

Albert pike was one of the most influential Freemasons of all time, he was master of occult philosophy (a Le Elpiphas Levi)

It should be no mystery to the avid occultist or esoteric alchemist that 'mystery' is the very basis of occult,
as the meaning of occult in itself is _secret_, and all secrets remain just this, a mystery.

Albert Pike himself establishes this in his writing:

'Nothing excites men's curiosity so much as Mystery, concealing things which they desire to know; and nothing so much increases curiosity as obstacles that interpose to prevent them from indulging in the gratification of their desires. Of this the Legislators and Heirophants took advantage, to attract the people to their sanctuaries, and to induce them to seek to obtain lessons from which they would perhaps have turned away with indifference if they had been pressed upon them'

In spirit this captures very well the alchemist, mystery-school like 'blinds' , a well documented and intriguing history; of where fact is presented in many ways, and can be understood entirely, only in one. Such a thing should be considered encoded or encrypted. Where two parts are required to make one. As above is below.

'The blue Degrees are but the outer court...of the temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate but he is intentionally misled by false interpretation. '

'It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them... The true explanation is reserved for the Adepts, the Princess of Masonry (those of 32nd and 33rd degrees)'
I can confirm that Albert Pike is correct in this judgment via a 32nd degree freemason, luckily thanks to a very good friend. Many will claim this is 'taken out of context', however I do not believe this to bet rue, after reading Morals and Dogma, any intellectual person should by my estimation will make the same conclusion. Of course it is somewhat made easier with the availability of additional testimony.


It should be considered no mystery to those who are familiar with just some of the collective works from any of the Light of the Golden Dawn, Knights Templar, Freemasonry, Hermeticism, Aleister Crowley, Ashcroft-nowicki, Aurum Solis, Dion Fortune, Edward Kelly, Fourth Way, Francis A. Yates, Gnostic Study, Israel Regardie, J.F.C Fuller, Kabbalah, The Rosicrucians, Carroll, Manly P. Hall and any of those who are practicing Tarot, Theosophy, Gnostic Studies, practicing 32nd degree (inner circle) Freemasons will know that secret societies are dealing with a great deal of esoteric rights rituals, orders and ceremony.

There is working magic, rather as Arthur C Clarke says 'any sufficiently advanced technology [will seem like magic to anyone]', and you know what, any sufficiently advanced mind applies here.


The greatest 'secret' of this argument is that regardless of any group, secret society existing or not. Dark forces exist everywhere, inside the individual.

The forces of individual intent, for example, 'good' or 'evil' (grossly crude as i've said before) are the same forces focused and used in ritualistic intention in MAJICK rituals, and possibly technology too.

This roughly translates to something a little like this:

I proclaim that it doesn't really matter if a person is in a group or not. A persons individual intent is a very powerful force, an actualize-able and empower-able force (again something we both know many secret societies are aware of).

This empower-able force is integral to ritual, and integral to any force of work good or bad. One could say, beware of the bearer.

Every masonic Lodge is a temple of Religion and its teachings are an instruction in Religion.

Pike himself spoke of the Templars, "Like all secret societies, the Knights Templar had two different doctrines, on secret and exclusively for the leaders, the other public", 'The order lived on, under different names and headed by unknown masters, and revealed in existence only to those who, by passing through a series of degrees, had proved themselves worthy of being entrusted with the dangerous secret'.

I, of course, am lucky enough to have Read Morals and Dogma and have a friend whos the son of the head of the Knights Templar, I met him by pure co-incidence. He is, one of the most esoteric people I know. He has described things to me that I'm not able to repeat. I wish I was. I will ask him.

Of course, I will say, those of you who would like this to be a simple discussion, or argument depending on demeanor - those people should really know this situation is very complex, and the belief systems are very complex. If you want to protect a secret you encode it, in alchemy it is called a blind, in masonry it is a conscious symbolism that interacts with (in my opinion) the information field of individuals, this is done purely by belief alone, and is the primary reason why entrants must believe and have faith.

Faith is a poor term, intent is a better one. The silly thing about the English language is, they are the same, and if they aren't it's my opinion they should be.

A lot of the work that Ingo Swann did at SRI is likely related to the consciousness changing factors involved in ritual, at accessing this 'information field', 'non local information', or 'OBE'-like 'paranormal' states. This is something of which I started investigating very young, I was about 5 or 6 when I first started, you can imagine my surprise at meeting someone involved with the Templars.

Here's an example to how powerful the mind and reality can be..

1)Imagine you upstairs at home and you are waiting for either your son or daughter to come home
2)Imagine that one of them has arrived home
3)You go downstairs with the intent to see which one has arrived
4)You see they both arrived at the same time.
-consciousness - pop -
5)You are surprised.

Note: for those who are like wtf? don't get it. Think harder, the emotion surprise, what is it? Consciousness what is it? I'm pointing out information (&intent) are conscious modifying. Possible science? Resonance. PCAR. Dr. Edgar Mitchell.

The human body and mind are systems of order and information, as is the universe, as are groups such as the Freemasons.

I will say again, it is not only grossly negligent to consider it a case of good vs evil, it is twice as negligent to consider that one individual cannot cause you as much harm as any other group , faction, of any kind.



[edit on 6-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

I will insist the rather infantile anecdote. When the large pharma-masonic-nasa-nazi evil doers come to get you in their well organized way, conspiratorial misgiving way, someone tell me why is it an individual is sent, and not a group? Illuminati, masonry, or any old fuddy duddy individual who wishes to make trouble for another... can... but are they most likely? No. Never said they were, said the individual could, and would though.

I guess those who want to criticize those post should criticize me for thinking this `It is not the Freemasons, The Illuminati, or any groups that scare me, it's the dangerous secret they -sometimes - admit they hold getting into - just one , just one malevolent individual.`

For those of you who do want it to be about evil, it is truly a disturbing prospect when an individual is both Intelligent and Evil, and in the right place at the right time.

'All have admitted two gods with different occupations, one making the good and the other the evil found in nature. The former has been styled 'God,' and the latter 'Demon.' The Persians or Zoroaster named the former Ormuzd and the latter Ahriman; of whom they said one was of the nature of Light, and the other that of Darkness. The Egyptians called the former Osiris, and the latter Typhon, his eternal enemy."

A



[edit on 6-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

Originally posted by 7redorbs
'The blue Degrees are but the outer court...of the temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate but he is intentionally misled by false interpretation. '

'It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them... The true explanation is reserved for the Adepts, the Princess of Masonry (those of 32nd and 33rd degrees)'
I can confirm that Albert Pike is correct in this judgment via a 32nd degree freemason, luckily thanks to a very good friend.

For the second time in this thread, I ask you "Explicitly WHAT is taught in degree n which is contradicted in a degree > n?"

reply to post by JoshNorton


I think what Pike was saying is that masons should feel that they belong to something big, and feel that they are doing something worthwhile without understanding what masonry's true purpose is!

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

I think what Pike was saying is that masons should feel that they belong to something big, and feel that they are doing something worthwhile without understanding what masonry's true purpose is!

Well I think what I'm saying is that Freemasonry is more complicated than merely an advancing craft. There are philosophies and mechanics and compartments within, this is and always has been the best way to keep secrets.

Catching the hearts and minds of people is more esoteric than a pure science, a psychological component of belief is critical, this is the something that can be directed.

Experience is key to understanding at all levels. You don't need science or freemasonry to make this assumption, you need psychology, this is where you will find the source of divinity, and the mechanics of ritualistic methodology taught in most secret mystery schools occult or esoteric, present or past.


A


[edit on 7-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

Originally posted by 7redorbs

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

I think what Pike was saying is that masons should feel that they belong to something big, and feel that they are doing something worthwhile without understanding what masonry's true purpose is!

Well I think what I'm saying is that Freemasonry is more complicated than merely an advancing craft. There are philosophies and mechanics and compartments within, this is and always has been the best way to keep secrets.

Catching the hearts and minds of people is more esoteric than a pure science, a psychological component of belief is critical, this is the something that can be directed.

Experience is key to understanding at all levels. You don't need science or freemasonry to make this assumption, you need psychology, this is where you will find the source of divinity, and the mechanics of ritualistic methodology taught in most secret mystery schools occult or esoteric, present or past.

A

Again, long on assertion, short on support. You have yet to respond to the request asked for in this post and it seems that a further golden stream of assertions is now forthcoming.

Do you really find it so off-putting that you are asked for links and/or citations for what you appear to be presenting as fact? If they're really just opinion, why not be an adult about it and acknowledge it as such?

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Fitzgibbon, I understand your frustration. However I will assume that you, like I, are in a process of trying to understand.

Some background:

Researching this subject is like stripping away the paint and plaster from the walls of Freemasonry (school building). Take out a couple of bricks and you will see the truth, the invisible gears of Freemasonry. The engine which powers their global control system. As they turn, they mesh together to accomplish their agendas. The reason why politicians never seem to do what the people who voted them into office want is because of these agendas.


An agenda is consistent with a secret society. A secret society whose plan is already laid out.
Predetermined.

Just look at how many Masonic Presidents the United States has had.

The visible "good works" organization is deliberately lied to and mislead with false interpretations by the invisible organization. The invisible organization knows the truth and is comprised of ELITE Masons.

This two dimensional organization is described by Manly P. Hall (who is a Mason himself). Hall was honored by The Scottish Rite Journal, who called Hall 'The Illustrious Manly P. Hall' in September, 1990, and further called him 'Masonry's Greatest Philosopher', saying "The world is a far better place because of Manly Palmer Hall, and we are better persons for having known him and his work"].

Manly P. Hall said:
"Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity -- an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect ... it is necessary to establish the existence of these two separate and yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of 'free and accepted' men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most August [defined as 'of majestic dignity, grandeur'] fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcannum arcandrum [defined as 'a secret, a mystery']." [Hall, Lectures on Ancient
Philosophy, p. 433]

There are many men within Freemasonry who are well-meaning and they make up the VISIBLE or "good works" organization of Freemasonry. They also have no knowledge of the INVISIBLE organization within Freemasonry. Albert Pike said something VERY interesting concerning the brethren in the visible society: "Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism, and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be mislead; to conceal the Truth, which it calls light, and draw them away from it." [Morals and Dogma, p. 104-5,
3rd Degree]

Albert Pike specifically says in the above quote that Masonry is a religion after the order of the Satanic Mysteries, the equally Satanic Hermetic Philosophy, and Alchemy.

Freemasonry was designed to conceal certain secrets from the brethren in the visible organization. The ELITE Masons are the ones who know the truth. This again is consistent with a secret society because there is a hidden agenda. Of course it also explains why politicians have their own agendas, they are controlled by the ELITE Mason.

The brethren in the visible organization are given "false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols" -- for what reason? -- those brethren in the visible organization "deserve only to be mislead".

If a man were to make it known to his fellow brethren that he believes in Jesus Christ he would likely be placed into the VISIBLE organization of Freemasonry. He would never learn the truth either unless he researched this subject independently. This man wouldn't be considered an Adept, or a Sage, or on of the Elect. Those terms are reserved for the members of the INVISIBLE organization. You would be one of those who were deliberately lied to about the doctrines of Masonry, and given deliberate misinterpretations of its symbols, so that you would merely THINK you knew the Truth.
"So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray."
[Ibid., p. 105] With that Pike completes his instructions to intentionally mislead members of the visible organization.

The term "masses" refers to those who are members of the VISIBLE organization and it comprises of a majority of Masons. Listen to what Pike says about telling the truth of the organization to the 'masses': "A Spirit", he said, "that loves wisdom and contemplates the Truth close at hand, is forced to disguise it, to induce the multitudes [that is you] to accept it ... Fictions are necessary to the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance." [Morals and Dogma, p. 103, 3rd Degree; Emphasis added]

If a person is not capable of accepting the Truth that inner-core, invisible Freemasonry really worships and serves Satan, then such Truth would become "deadly" to you. Therefore, "fictions are necessary" so visible Masons would not be so devastated that they would leave Freemasonry and expose its inner secrets.

There IS one short paragraph that properly and concisely defines the heart and soul of the Invisible Fraternity of Freemasonry. Let us return to Manly P. Hall for this quote:

"When a Mason learns the key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply energy." [The Lost Keys To Freemasonry, Manly P. Hall, published by the Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, 1976, p. 48; Emphasis added]

The Scottish Rite Journal praised Manly P. Hall in 1990 as "Masonry's Greatest Philosopher". Some Masons may not have ever heard of Manly P. Hall; yet you can see his book was published by the Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company. The only reason this high-ranking Mason had never heard of Manly P. Hall is that Hall was a leader of the Invisible Fraternity, while this Mason was participating in the Visible Fraternity!





[edit on 7-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

[edit on 7-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

Some might say that no 'one' can be fooled to believe anything, one surrenders it willingly only. This is important, because it always means those who are empowered and intellectual will always find secrets. It is by no co-incidence at all the men who die in the crossfire are usually in the wrong place at the wrong time, or a little too smart for their own good

A majority of Masons have been kept in IGNORANCE all along.


If you would like to go further you can go to the publishing and distribution
house of Invisible Freemasonry, Kessinger's Freemasonry and Occult Publishing; Kessinger's publishes all the old, formerly very secret Masonic books of the Invisible Society. You are encouraged to pursue the subjects they have listed at the very bottom of their Home Page, noting
the extremely Satanic, anti-Christian subjects of which the Invisible Fraternity is comprised.

Below are a few of these subjects as Kessinger's has listed them:
THIS is the heart and soul of the Invisible, Inner Fraternity. The absolute darkest part of this heart is Phallicism, worshipping the erect Male Sex Organ. The obelisk is the major symbol for this worship,
which is why you see obelisks everywhere associated with Freemasonry!

Albert Pike speaks of the obelisk: "Hence the significance of the phallus, or of its inoffensive substitute, the obelisk, rising as an emblem of the resurrection by the tomb of buried Deity …"
[Morals and Dogma, p. 393] Now, you know why you see so many obelisks atop the graves of Freemasons, for it is "an emblem of the resurrection of buried Deity"; the Invisible Mason believes he is becoming a god throughout his life, so the obelisk at his grave is simply the visible manifestation of
that belief.

The obelisk was originally created by the Egyptian Mysteries of the Pharaohs, and is spoken of in the Bible. Listen: "… King Jehu said to the guards and to the officers, 'Go in and slay them; let none escape'. And they smote them with the sword; and the guards before the king threw their bodies out, and went into the inner dwelling of the house of Baal. They brought out the obelisks of the house of Baal and burned them." [2 Kings 10:26, Amplified Bible]

God Almighty ordered the Satanic obelisks burned, but only after He ordered King Jehu to slaughter the worshippers of the obelisk, also known as Baal worshippers. Thus, the Invisible Freemasonry is devoted to the obelisk worship so forbidden by God as to be worthy of the Death Penalty. Keep this in mind the next time you contemplate the Washington Monument!

Finally, Serpent Worship takes us directly into Hell itself, for Satan stands directly behind this form of worship. This is the Invisible Fraternity of Freemasonry, and I bet you never knew it existed, did you?


And.. believe it or not I'm not trying to accuse the 'good masons' as being satanists, I'm trying to accuse the esoteric occultists that do form a part of the masons of a possible satanic link, which is recorded in numerous ways as I have listed, and as is written in full and disturbing detail (for the most part) in an ebook called 'The hidden Gears of Freemasonry'.

Freemasons should read Hirams Key. It's worth noting , I've been banned by several Masonic chatrooms for even mentioning the book, I know why.

There is also more I want to cite and talk about in some detail, with regards to Hiram Abiff, the ritual and the consciousness, resurrection element, and of course, most importantly (IMO) the changing description of the story.. hope to do that soon.

If you are a Mason and are wondering what I'm talking about, I implore you to do some research, either within your lodge or subtly amongst your friends.

Against contrary assumption, I am not a rampant conspiracy theorist. However I do occasionally leap at the challenge. I am Obsessive Compulsive and have spent FAR too much time reading about this stuff.

I have about 4gb of books, pictures and writings in the occult and alchemical fields and would be happy to share with anyone who wants to research this topic further in an honest, friendly and intellectual way.




A


Reference:
[Hall, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy, p. 433]
[Morals and Dogma, p. 104-5, 3rd Degree]
[Ibid., p. 105]
[Morals and Dogma, p. 103, 3rd Degree; Emphasis added]
[The Lost Keys To Freemasonry, Manly P. Hall, published by the Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, Inc., Richmond, Virginia, 1976, p. 48; Emphasis added]
[Morals and Dogma, p. 393]
[2 Kings 10:26, Amplified Bible]

[The Invisible Gears of Freemasonry]
[The Hiram Key]
[Freemasons - Blue Book]


[edit on 7-9-2009 by 7redorbs]

Other Significant References:

"The Mysteries Of Magic' by Eliphas Levi "What is more absurd and more impious than to attribute the name of Lucifer to the devil, that is, to personified evil. The intellectual Lucifer is the spirit of intelligence and love; it is the paraclete, it is the Holy Spirit, while the physical Lucifer is the great agent of universal magnetism."

page 428.
'The Book Of Black Magic' by Arthur Edward Waite 33°

"First Conjuration Addressed to Emperor Lucifer. Emperor Lucifer, Master and Prince of Rebellious Spirits, I adjure thee to leave thine abode, in what-ever quarter of the world it may be situated and come hither to communicate with me. I command and I conjure thee in the Name of the Mighty Living God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost, to appear without noise and without ...."

page 244.
'The Secret Teaching Of All Ages' by Manly Palmer Hall 33°

"I hereby promise the Great Spirit Lucifuge, Prince of Demons, that each year I will bring unto him a human soul to do with as as it may please him, and in return Lucifuge promises to bestow upon me the treasures of the earth and fulfil my every desire for the length of my natural life. If I fail to bring him each year the offering specified above, then my own soul shall be forfeit to him. Signed..... [ Invocant signs pact with his own blood ] "

page CIV.
'The Lost Keys Of Freemasonry' by Manly Palmer Hall 33°

"When The Mason learns that the Key to the warrior on the block is the proper application of the dynamo of living power, he has learned the Mystery of his Craft. The seething energies of Lucifer are in his hands and before he may step onward and upward, he must prove his ability to properly apply this energy."

page 48.
'The Secret Doctrine' by Helena Petrovna Blavatsky

"Lucifer represents..Life..Thought..Progress..Civilization.. Liberty..Independence..Lucifer is the Logos..the Serpent, the Savior." on pages 171, 225, 255 (Volume II)

"It is Satan who is the God of our planet and the only God." pages 215, 216, 220,245, 255, 533, (VI)