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What is a Man?

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posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 04:01 AM
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It sounds funny to ask that but I think it is important. You can ask the same question about a woman. Or a human being for that matter. Laugh if you want but Bill O'Reilly is correct in that there IS a culture war going on. A conspiracy if you like. There have been threads on here about how a man and a woman think to help the other side but nothing about what makes a man a man or a woman a woman. Or a human a human.

Recnetly I was at the store and a woman behind me had some heavy grocerys in her hands. I moved stuff around so she could put her stuff down and her comment was "Thank you. There are few gentlemen around anymore." So we discussed this subject while waiting our turn to be serviced. She is correct there are few of us around anymore and part of the reason is the so called PC.

If that was all it was I wouldn't be asking this question. On the job I run into pretty much the same problem. My SS keeps telling me that my job is to do as I am told, some of his superiors say the same thing. That I am ramming my head into a stone wall. Funny, when I actually say "ok I will just be a pair of hands for you" they freak out. Others are. I am not. When I disagree I stop ANYTHING from happening and they LIKE it that way. For informational purpuses my stopping things and doing it my way rather than the way I was told has resulted in over 4 BILLION dollars saved to the U.S. citisenry, conservatively, at least according to a report I read recently. I was not alone. It took guts for those who work with me to refuse to follow orders and confidence in me for them to break the rules and do what I said to do. What has this to do with being a man or what a man is? Most people cover their butts, it is FAR SAFER to follow the rules than it is to do what is right. These men who CHOSE to follow my lead are also responsible for those savings.

Again that is not all. I have a young man who is trying to be a man who has fathered 3 children on my daughter. She is not 21 he has just turned 21. He has done many things I would say I MAN would do and many things that what I call a MAN would not do but is now considered acceptable in this society. He WANTS to be a man but is not sure what a man is.

This even affects politics. If you disagree with Obama do you admit in public you do and be called a racist? Or if you agree with Obama do you admit it in public and be called a socialist? Additional names for either side have been more than listed on other threads. DO YOU FACE THE ACCUSATIONS from either side or hide and say nothing because it is the SAFEST thing to do? Is that what a man is these days?

I do not care about anyone's political bent. What I care about is what you think a MAN is. I have my own views. For instance I believe the terrorists of 9/11 were MEN! Do I agree with them? NO. But I respect that they were willing to die for what they believed. As to actual strategy I think they screwed up. If they had rammed the planes into the IRS building and the Pentagon I think they would have had the backing of half of this country! I don't worry about how the IRS will take this. They have been after me for 21 years because my wife as a volunteer paramedic had 13 operations in a year and we didn't list $67 dollars she made during that year. I am still fighting though they have taken $18000 from us for it since. F##k them! Security tells me I have to pay whatever they say and I keep telling them to ARREST me so I can get a judge to make a ruling.

So my question is WHAT IS A MAN TODAY BY TODAY'S STANDARDS? What do YOU think makes a man a man? A woman a woman? A human being a human being?




posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 04:05 AM
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you cant just say someone is a man just couse he acts in the face of fear i think, pretty much everyone who works and has to deal with a family and has little good left in him is a man.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 04:11 AM
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Reply to post by Stillalive
 


I agree.

I think perhaps thats more of a characteristic of certain humans. Granted that is not true for all of them. I personally cannot differ between man and woma other than the obvious. I think we're all just humans and should start acting like it.

A woman can support her family just as much as a man. A woman can stand in the face of adversity for her country just as well as a man. And a man can(dare i say) cook, clean, and take care of the kiddies just as well as a woman. All it takes is the determination...


 
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posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 04:29 AM
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Thank you for responses. However I think your responses actually SHOW the problem I see. Doing house chores to me does not define a man or a woman. If you wish to talk about FEAR defining a man than we talk about something most men in this country do not face. Few men in this country have to fight for their lives.

If you say FEAR about losing their jobs is the same than I have to say you are in the lucky majority who has not had to decide to be willing to die for what they believe.

I personally believe that since the so called feminist movement started it has made it more difficult for women as well as more difficult for men to know what it is that makes them whatever they are. The same goes even more for race. You are a MAN if you get a bunch of women pregnant. You are a WOMAN if you don't accept help from a man. I disagree with both propositions. I think there is something more core to both. My opinion.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 04:35 AM
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Reply to post by Jerk_Idiot
 


I'm not sure I understand then.

Why is it a problem that there is no solid definition for man/woman? The only thing that I can think of to mention is the stigma commonly placed upon being a "man". We're supposed to be stronger and more adept at facing adversity and so on and so forth, which is completely biased and unfounded.

Perhaps you can rephrase your question?


 
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posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 05:16 AM
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I will try.
First I do not believe there should be a stigma for being either a man or a woman. Both are needed in this world. I do not believe they think the same, they think differently from each other. Check out the posts about helping each other to understand the differences. I am not saying that a man is BETTER than a woman. Or that a WOMAN is better than a man. However I have seen these kind of statements comming out where as when I was young they were not. I am saying THEY ARE DIFFERENT is all. We think differently.

I guess what I am saying is that the young men and women I have met, as well as a number of older people, have become confused about what they are. That sounds bad but I don't know anyway else to put it. I know WOMEN who are bad assed but still are women, MEN who are house husbands but are still MEN, and people of BOTH sexes that are not sure of how they should act. It is not a question of who does the laundry or who makes the money. They do not know who they are. Even those who think they do I see confusion in. I am your boss I make the decisions! Unless you disagree. Than I will shut up.

A example. I was out with a heart attack for a couple of months and a new OS took over my crew. He had heard about me and the first night I came back he decided to tell me HIS rules. I listened and they were reasonable. Than I told him MY rules. He was not to interfere if I told the SS NO. He hit the roof. I was to do WHATEVER THE SS told me period. The SS happened to be walking by and stated that I am to tell him NO whenever I disagreed with him. The OS basically freaked but he saw why a couple of weeks later. That SS has since than been saved by me a couple of times. I have overridden him and he has thanked me. Now all of the sudden he is constantly afraid of what I might do. He has suddenly changed and not for the better. He KNOWS this. He has been informed by the whole crew that what he is doing is creating disention in the crew, one member has even requested and received transfer because of it. Why did he cave when following the established methods got him a bonus and he saved sorry can't say but it did.

The problem I have is that to me humans do what they believe to be right. They don't cave because of some fear of whatever. Men are to fight first because they are less important than women to the species, than when the men have fallen the women fight.

Neither caves because of something called PC. Your beliefs can be changed but not because of FEAR but because someone PROVES your beliefs to be wrong. Not because someone holds a gun to your head or threatens your job. Perhaps I am showing my age.

The problem I have is I see so many people of either sex who have no REAL BELIEFS. They just spout whatever the latest fade is. They do not DECIDE! I do not care if someone agrees with me. I DO care that they agree with themselves rather than spout BS. If they actually believe it fine. To change their beliefs according to the PC whim is not human to me. Sorry If I ranted.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 05:22 AM
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reply to post by Agree2Disagree
 


Maybe I put it badly. Sorry. What I am asking for is what do people now a days define a MAN, WOMAN, OR HUMAN BEING as? I know I am dated. I am asking for the new definition.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 05:23 AM
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I have to say that I'm reminded of The Big Lebowski, where the Dude says, "That and a pair of testicles."
Also a comment I heard once, "Men are from Mars; Women are from Venus, eh? Gender stereotypes are from Uranus."



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 06:12 AM
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I am not capable of giving definitive definitions as to what todays society calls a man or woman. Like I said earlier, I do not see the difference other than the obvious physical ones.

A human, imho, is one that can think for itself and adapt and overcome in most situations. Humans are those that strive for knowledge and understanding of the world they live in and why it is the way it is.

If one cannot think for oneself then they are not a human at all. More such a ventriloquist dummy or robot for tptb or anyone else willing to manipulate their thoughts for that matter.

Perhaps someone else more suitable for this question can answer you more definitively than myself.


 
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posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 06:22 AM
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What I care about is what you think a MAN is. I have my own views.


My perception has a more spiritual bias to it that I think yours, but you've asked for our opinion, so I will give it to you.

The question "what is man" isn't quite so direct as "what is masculine." "Man" is simply an expression in this physical world of the masculine/feminine yin/yang principal.

Masculine/feminine are very simple: in a healthy system, the masculine force acts upon the feminine force, which accepts and receives it. Together these two forces bring about change. Any change. Masculine/feminine is simply one way of perceiving the process of change.



For instance I believe the terrorists of 9/11 were MEN!


Of course. Any force which acts upon another force is masculine. There is nothing "good or bad" about the force itself. Your weight pressing down on your chair is masculine. A person who lifts a drowning stranger out of a pool is acting upon the child, and thus masculine. And yes, someone who kills someone, or as in your example, commits and act of "terrorism" upon a nation...all these acts are simply masculine forces acting upon another.

However, in the case of your weight pushing down on your chair, the chair is also pushing back with an equal amount of masculine force, and thus there is no "movment." There is no "child" of the exchange. In the case of The person lifting the stranger out of the pool, however, the stranger "receives" that masculine energy and there is change manifested in his life: he lives instead of drowns. He acts as a feminine force by "accepting and receiving" the rescue, and the"child" of that exchange manifests as him being lifted from the pool and not dying.



For instance I believe the terrorists of 9/11 were MEN!


Yes. In this case, masculine forces acted upon a feminine force that was unaware of the force acting upon it, and accepted and received the energy offered to it...unwittingly. Rape. Though this is a simplification.



So my question is WHAT IS A MAN TODAY BY TODAY'S STANDARDS?
What do YOU think makes a man a man?
A woman a woman? A human being a human being?


So far I've discussed forces. Human beings are creatures that possess and identify with these forces to varying degrees. If someone tells you to do something, and you do it...they are acting as the masculine force and you are acting as the feminine. Physical gender has little to do with it, though in general, people who are male probably tend towards a greater association with masculine energy. That is, after all, why they're male.

As far as society's "standards" go, however, it's basically the same. A "man" is someone who acts in the nature of the masculine force. He says and does what he wants. He acts. He doesn't let others push him around. Why? To be "pushed" would be to accept and receive a masculine energy offered by another. Acting upon masculine energy offered by another would be behaving in the nature of the feminine force.

"Being a woman" by society's standards is essentially the same: someone who acts in the nature of the feminine force. A woman does what she is told. (Instant emotional reaction from the audience.) Isn't it interesting that nobody has a problem with the above of "being a man" but some people freak out when they hear the obvious complement to it?

But, to be fair, this is all a gross simplication. Yin/yang is a simple way of viewing things. A more precise perspetive may be had with an alchemical perspective: viewing the act of change as three forces instead of only two. For example, working with stereotypes, it would be "unfeminine" for a married woman to have sex with every man who expressed an interest. Why? Simply accepting every masculine force would match perfectly the description I've given of the feminine force, right? Yes. But our expectations of "man and woman" isn't neatly described by yin/yang.

Let's refine our metaphors somewhat. Forgive me if this is unfamiliar. Let's add a third force. We'll call it "salt." Salt is a preservative. Food that is salted resists the act of decomposition "masculinely offered" by bacteria. Fields that have been salted resist the plant growth being "masculinely offered" by a seed. Salt, in our metaphor, is essentially the "force" of resistence/inertia/preservation.

In addition to acting, a man in our society is also expected to protect, yes? He protects his woman, his country, his beliefs, from being changed by others. This is salt. And a woman is expected to be loyal to her man, yes? To resist the masculine forces offered by other men. This too, is salt.




[edit on 31-8-2009 by LordBucket]



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 06:47 AM
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I do not believe there should be a stigma for being either a
man or a woman. Both are needed in this world.


If anything it to be accomplished, yes. We do need both.



I know WOMEN who are bad assed but still are women,
MEN who are house husbands but are still MEN


Yes. Our society's expectations of men and women inculdes salt. The core of "being a man" is doing what you set out to do, not letting anyone push you into doing things you don't want to do, and protecting the things you care about. The core of "being a woman" is nurturing and supporting the people you care about, and being loyal to them. The protection and the loyalty is simply the salt part of what society expects. "Male/female" "yin/yang" isn't enough to describe what society expects of men and women. We need salt to describe it too.



I know WOMEN who are bad assed but still are women,
MEN who are house husbands but are still MEN


Yes. A woman is is visciously loyal to a man, to her children, to her ideals, willing to fight and scrape and brawl to protect them is highly prized by our society. And part of the core of being a man is doing what you want. Not everybody wants to work a job for somebody else, and I'd suggest that there's something extremely feminine about being a wage slave.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 06:48 AM
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the old fashion man was tough and rugged. the man of today wear pink shirt, make-up and bell bottom jeans that are pre-ripped before leaving the factory. the original man ripped his jeans via wear and tear. girls love the new man because they look like girls so we all try to be like girls.....................to get the girls. original man only call the cop when someone beside himself is bleeding to death, the man of today call the cop for reasons including but not limited to a broken nail. i can go on forever but i'll stop here.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 07:25 AM
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I disagree to a certain extent. Because a MAN to me DOES draw a line in the sand, however a real man constanly has to ask is that the right place for that line? Perhaps it should be further back or further forward? A MAN can have his beliefs changed by logic or reason, NOT BY FORCE! The same goes for a woman. It is human.

To me it is an overly simple assumption to believe that a MAN gives or forces and a WOMAN recieves or accepts. I believe we are more complex than that and there in lies the problem. That is the very reason I asked the question.

These are simple answers for a complex question. That is part of the problem. It is the reason so many of our young and even of our old have difficulties knowing what they are now in this modern age. That is why my future son in law, do not let him know I basically approve of him, he needs to find out what he is and NOT ACCEPT my approval of him as the end, still does not know who he is. He must become HIMSELF not a reflection of me or my approval.

Part of my job is to train people. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I HAVE TRAINED has filed complaints against me. EVERY SINGLE PERSON I HAVE TRAINED has come back to me afterwards and thanked me because they have found themselves to be better and more knowledgable than those who they ended up working with regardless of the years of senority or experience. They advance to the jobs I have turned down and those with more experience fail to advance.

One of the problems I have with those I have trained who always end up in positions of authority above me is there unwillingness to contest me. I have many times had to say "If you disagree with me FIGHT me. Do NOT agree with me because you respect me or I trained you. Argue with me BECAUSE you respect me and because I TRAINED you. I trained you to make your OWN decisions. I am on the way out, it is time for new ideas." That to me is another symptom of the problem I am talking about. To me a MAN makes his own decisions, he does not parrot the ideas of his trainer or those of the people around him if he disagrees.

It may sound like I am off topic but I am not. I see so many people who go with the flow. "Go along to get along." beliefs. So few of either sex are willing to defend their own beliefs but parrot the "majority rules" BS. One of the people I trained said that to me so I arranged for the rest of the crew to turn on him. He was shocked. "It's wrong" he cried to me. He didn't deserve what was happening. "The majority rules, your statement, so get used to it." I answered. "ButI didn't do anything." was his reply. "So change it, fight back." was my answer. "The majority is quite often wrong and needs someone to show them that." He did. On his own. He now makes double the salary I do and I am quite proud of him.

I know in action what a MAN is or a Woman for that matter. I do not have the words to explain this very complex definition and that is what I am asking for. How do you explain to a young man or woman what they are? My name here came about because that is what my girls thought I was trying to explain to them. I did not have the right words for them. I was DATED or UNCOOL I guess. In a very short time they learned the hard way and are now WOMEN. I am no longer the Jerk and Idiot they thought me to be. The question I have is not philisphical but real. What WORDS can explain what a man or woman is to the young?



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 09:39 AM
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To me it is an overly simple assumption to believe that a MAN
gives or forces and a WOMAN recieves or accepts.


You might consider reading the entirety of my posts rather than just the first couple sentences of the first one.



Jerk_Idiot:
I disagree
To me
I believe
I asked
my job
I HAVE TRAINED
I HAVE TRAINED
thanked me
I have turned down
One of the problems I have
I have trained
above me
I have many times
agree with me
you respect me
I trained you
I am on
That to me is
I am talking
To me
I am off topic
I am not
I see
I trained
I arranged
cried to me
I answered.
I do
I am quite proud
I know
I do not
I am asking
My name
I did not have
I was
I am
I have


You'll forgive me if I conclude that this thread exists so you can talk about yourself, and you have no genuine interest in the topic you presented.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 10:19 AM
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reply to post by Jerk_Idiot
 

I'm not sure what the problem is. But I was never raised to "be a man." So I never had to get the concept defined.

There is no doubt that our perception of what our duties and responsibilities in society are have been changing.

This is the basic paradigm I have learned and try to work with: A man, a woman, or a human being is, above all, a being. In the end, that being will have to answer for itself: Did I do right or did I do wrong?

Most simply, a man is a being with a male body. A woman is a being with a female body. There are aspects of being male or female that are genetic, or you could say, "instinctive."

But because we are essentially beings, our traditional roles can get confused by our environments or our own thinking. Women have fought alongside men in battle. Men have reared children. Women have sat on councils in government and led empires, alongside or in spite of men, for ages. It is only the traditional and biological patterns that determine what the more likely "skill set" of a person should be in a certain society at a certain time.

On top of this, any being, regardless of what body it has, is susceptible to certain vagaries of life that may result in impaired perceptions, failure to be responsible or to give help when obviously needed, moral lapses, or even criminality. It should be mentioned that the pressures in these directions seem to be increasing.

So my view is that people should be treated as beings, regardless of what sex their bodies are. And that the "laws" of beings should be held more sacred than the "laws" of mere mortal men or animal life. And that a being will be successful to the degree that it can live up to its own expectations for itself and its own sense of integrity.



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