OBE, God, Astrology, Debunked!

reply to post by Republican08


Interesting topic and I enjoyed watching the TED video. I would like to point out several things in response but first of all I should say that I'm with you overall on this subject. This is something I have thought about before and have concluded similarly at one time or another.

However, analytically we can not compare scientific fact with religious or spiritual belief. Belief is that which cannot be proven nor dis-proven thus requiring faith, if a belief is ever proven as fact then it is no longer a belief.

The word 'Debunk' is a negative and does not prove anything, it can bring up doubt but that's about it. This type of thought usually gets me in a bit of trouble, most people I know don't like to think about words in this way. Personally I consider "Debunk" a 'belief' word, or something that is neither proven nor dis-proven empirically. In other words to simply disprove something is not proof. Rather than disprove what is false (Add: Double negative was intentional.), we should attempt to prove what is true.

There must be a very subtle difference between minute seizures and normal brain activity. Are people having a spiritual experience, just a mild seizure or, even better, both? Again this is not proof either way for or against belief. I would like to also point out that I find this field of neurology very interesting following and enjoying Dr. Ramachandran's seminar.

Astrology,

I disagree with the comment that this is an easy one, unless we limit our study to the last 1k years. Ancient astrology and mythology bring up very interesting combinations that have almost nothing to do with modern astrology. Think about predicting the approach of a large comet that transits the Sun close to Earth showering down fire and falling rocks to certain areas of the world. This would have dramatic effects on those that experienced this and a good astrologer would advice against moving to this area at that point in time, "don't invest in the local economy." At any rate this is anything but simple in my opinion.

Modern astrologers don't hold a candle to the ancients and far too many people want to believe so badly that they dismiss the facts. I do not believe in the supernatural but I do think that there are naturally occurring phenomena.



[edit on 8/31/2009 by Devino]

reply to post by Republican08


Oh dear Republican, you've been reading those newspaper sun-sign based horoscopes again haven't you?

I follow the transits of the planets on a daily basis and regularly observe the energies of the day manifesting here on our planet. The sun-sign based horoscopes that the MSM refer to as 'astrology' are simply not the whole deal. In fact it a rather quirky set of sentences that the reader may or may not be able to relate to. This is dependant on the other energies in your natal chart. Every chart has all twelve signs in it. Every person can relate to every sign in some way, depending on where the sign is situated in your natal. There is your Barnum effect my friend And knowing what the MSM is like, it would not surprise me if it is a deliberate attempt to 'debunk' the art/science of Astrology.

If you were to look deeper into an actual chart and not simply a solar transit, you would find a blueprint for either a person, an event or simply a selected time in space. This blueprint is an imprint of the energies present at the select time. The energies aspect each other in various ways and contribute to either strengths or weaknesses of the person/event/point in time. It is a deep, deep science, with an astounding amount of layers. Your natal chart is your map.

Astrology is based on numbers, as are all of earth's sciences. And numbers are a vibration. It has been around for millenia and many of the great scientific thinkers have studied it and even used it to aid their lives. Surely they are not ALL wrong? lol

Once you understand the energies, the feel of them, you begin to recognise them in your daily life. Unfortunately for people to actually know that the energies of our solar system effect them, they need to feel them, observe them in action and thus they need to learn the energies first which is why IMO, the MSM find it easy to discredit Astrology.

Ironically, at the time of my responding to your OP, the Moon is presently in Capricorn, indicating a need to feel secure within structures. These can be both self imposed or boundaries and restrictions set by TPTB, and thus both sides of this debate are reflected

The Moon is sextiliing Uranus, enabling an opportunity to put forward the theory that the general publics view of Astrology is rather limited, and also an indication of how one is able to feel Astrology in action.

And Saturn, Capricorn's ruler is in a beautiful earth trine to the Moon, an indication of firm foundations and structured responses, so hopefully you get your wish and this thread remains sensible and responsible

As for God/Religion, the quote “I don’t Doubt your sincerity, I doubt your belief!” about sums it up for me, as that is rather what these two things are all about IMO. Belief is not proof.

Never had an OOBE, unless you count prophetic dreams, of which I have had two. One, way more powerful than the other and an exact replica (or is that pre-replica??) of an event that was to occur approximately 7 days later.

And a final word:

"Astrology is a science in itself and contains an illuminating body of knowledge. It taught me many things, and I am greatly indebted to it. Geophysical evidence reveals the power of the stars and the planets in relation to the terrestrial. In turn, astrology reinforces this power to some extent. This is why astrology is like a life-giving elixir to mankind." - ALBERT EINSTEIN

Cheers for the interesting thread,
VA

I think it is quite an assumption to consider any of those topic debunked. Of course I'm a believer so... you know

The thing that bothers me the most about these subjects is #1 they seem built into the brain #2 all cultures experience these phenomenas. I guess I just always have this idea that the things we experience internally is just as much real as what we experience externally. Just because it's not tangible, record able, or measurable doesn't mean these things may not exist. In fact I think there is more "proof" or "evidence" if you like, that these so called delusions could be a probable reality. For instance Einsteins Theory of Relativity & The String Theory, suggest that there could be alternate dimensions and parallel universes. Now couldn't Heaven (or Hell if you believe in it) be another Dimension? I know scientists like to stray away from Psychology and the Human studies because it's so abstract and almost unmeasurable. The whole "See it to believe it" thing.

I have had my share of experiences, like many ATS members. When my Grandfather died it was very transforming, because I was there when he was dying (although I did not see him die). After the incident I became so overwhelmed with emotion because of what the others had witnessed, it had been a very... religious experience so to say. That whole experience changed me and reinforced parts of myself that were weak. Also I'm a composer of music and I can tell you there is no such feeling of having a "Aha!" moment, my question is if they can reproduce these effects, then why haven't they tried using it on artists and what not to see what they come up with? I doubt it would be the same, but you never know.

I also have had an OBE as many have already shared theirs I can say that mine is very similar except I approach mine a different way. It all started when I was sleeping, I had this nasty habit of getting extremely shallow breaths during my sleep (allergies I think caused it), and one time that triggered an OBE for me. It is a miraculous thing, a Dream isn't even close to what I experienced... OP if you've got the time I encourage you to try to have one yourself, if you haven't already, maybe you might gain a little insight about the subject? There's plenty of how-to's on the internet.

reply to post by Republican08


Lol. That doesn't debunk God. That is just explaining how he works.

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by Republican08

 

Lol. That doesn't debunk God. That is just explaining how he works.

Just for explanation, I noticed, almost every post, points out semantically the word Debunk.

I admit it was a poor choice of a word. I had, had 'explained' 'looked into'. But noone posted on it and it fell off the board, so I changed it to debunked, and well I honestly didn't expect it to pick up, just put it up there for zazz.

reply to post by Republican08


That is funny because that word debunk is probably what got so many to respond. I caught myself doing this but frankly I went ahead and responded. I worry that someone interested in it might come across this and that public opinion (if it went that way) is enough to make them give up on OOBE or something like that. And so I just respond quickly when it's like that.

edit: lol I just made an entire post using this, that, and it... well in my post here "That" usually refers to the effect the use of debunk has had in this thread. While "this" usually means quick assumptions asserted or made, and "it" refers to OOBE and other paranormal topics.

[edit on 31-8-2009 by Novise]

reply to post by Republican08


Thank you for posting this!

It really does confirm my reality in my experience in the paranormal and occult. You would have to be present to really know whats what. I dont blame you I used to be just like you until I met a certain person that really is plugged into the universe so to speak.

What you really need to understand is that people that are actually the real deal in forms of Magick also will not talk about the details or flaunt it in public. The fourth rule of the Magus is discernment. You will lose your ability if you ride the ego trip.

Dude you are trying too hard. Why do you push your belief so hard? What in the hell happened to you to make you go on such a journey? If you dont believe then dont believe. I would never try and talk someone out of they're belief. It may be all they have. So why do it then? What are you trying to prove?

Oh by the way its not super-natural, its just natural. Everything is made of energy, waves and particles. We arrange the reality we see touch smell and taste through the collective and its very natural. One can learn to bend what we are told into what it really is.

May you find your way from the sterility you are creating in your reality. Please though try and not change others realities its just bad Karma.

Originally posted by Verum Astrum
reply to post by Republican08

 

Never had an OOBE, unless you count prophetic dreams, of which I have had two. One, way more powerful than the other and an exact replica (or is that pre-replica??) of an event that was to occur approximately 7 days later.

Hi VA, I also have had to prophetic dreams. The first one was an exact replica but was rather meaningless in my life except as an example. As if the universe was telling me "when you feel like this pay attention!" the second one was a life changing event.

I have seen so much in my mid-life...I plugged in late but what a ride! I have met true Shamans and even had a skinwalker as a lover. It was as if the universe kept Godsmacking me until I finally got it. One event after another until I could not turn away. Until I could not reason it away any more. I got slapped around really good for a few years. Now that I do understand some of it I dont get those jaw dropping experiences much lately, I miss the high voltage ones though like a drug almost. I especially miss my little skinwalker.... is the most indescribably wonderful person I have had the honor of meeting.

Your assertions are based on incomplete and outright false information, to the point where it appears to be motivated by a personal agenda.

Back to the drawing board for you.

Originally posted by Republican08

Out of Body Experiences-

An estimated one out of ten people will or have experienced an ‘Out of body Experience’. Same can be said of Female date violence or rape.

I agree that trauma is related to OBE but at least find an article that supports what you claim. The article did not even mention OBE and rape.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Originally posted by Verum Astrum
reply to post by Republican08

 

Hi VA, I also have had to prophetic dreams. The first one was an exact replica but was rather meaningless in my life except as an example. As if the universe was telling me "when you feel like this pay attention!" the second one was a life changing event.

Hey there friend
Yes the Universe can certainly be persistant that's for sure!
If only more people would pay attention, we could move on spiritually, as a whole people...
The prophetic dreams are definitely an eye-opener, indeed they were proof to me that there is more to life than what can be seen with the naked eye.
We are reversed in our order here though lol. My first dream was the eye opener and the second one I simply accepted and moved on

I certainly get where you are coming from regarding the high-powered experiences, and after each one you feel just that bit more awake...I too would love to have some more jaw-dropping ones, but unfortunately it is difficult to remain stunned forever I guess. A bit like the -once you know, you can't unknow- scenario I think. Although that being said, sometimes those Ahh Haa moments still smack me in the face from time to time. I started on my path in about '85-'86....so that's about.....lol too many years to want to think about. It sounds like you have certainly had some intense experiences even though you say you came late to the party!

Skinwalkers.....they're shapeshifters right? Sounds intriguing! I know absolutely nothing about them at all, but from the small amount you've said here, it sounds like your Skinwalker certainly had a hand in aiding your spiritual growth which is wonderful!


VA

I believe Robert Anton Wilson said it best:

What the Thinker thinks, the prover proves

If you set out to debunk something, your subconscious will organize all perceptions to fit this model of reality....

Your findings really don't mean much and don't debunk anything anymore than people's experiences prove anything.

You will always be right and wrong, simultaneously....

reply to post by Republican08


One would think that after the thrashing Skyfloating gave you during your debate, you would simmer down a bit. You even threw this at him and he effectively knocked it out of the park.

Having a tough time finding that debate, you should post it so that everyone can read what he said in reply to this "debunking".

edit to add.

Found it. www.abovetopsecret.com...

You will find what I was referancing to in the 2 or 3 posting. Everyone should read the whole thing. It was pretty one sided. Kinda of like the first fight between Rocky and Clubber Lang.

[edit on 1-9-2009 by jd140]

reply to post by Republican08

With OBE's:- How does this theory explain people travelling to other places and getting info relevant to their or other people's physical life that they would otherwise have no access to?

Example:- I used to work with people in various countries using my internet connection to them to begin reaching out to them. This would always take me directly to their house, which I would describe, to their room where I would see them sitting at their computer and be able to describe what they were wearing at the time and how their room was decorated, etc. Explain this based on your limited, not-at-all-Debunking theory please?

How to does this explain the working units for Remote Viewing in the Military. And please don't say they don't operate anymore as I know the opposite is correct still.

Could it be possible that Spirit is what invigorates these areas of the Brain to induce spiritual experiences? Why is that not possible or probable given the info you have provided where unnatural stimulation can proved something similar, but lacking, as an experience?

It is not possible to Debunk something you have no direct experience of yourself. All you can do is offer theories about it that may or not actually apply.



[edit on 1-9-2009 by Tayesin]

I'm not much into Astrology, so I won't touch that one.

As for the other subjects, I'm going to have to say nothing has been debunked. I don't even have to read or watch anything that has been presented in this thread to say this.

To anyone who has truly stepped outside their body, they would spit on this thread. I'm sorry if it sounds offensive, but....

I really don't understand all this need that some people here feel, to debunk things like god, or as I like to think, the creator. I don't understand the point? Am I supposed to somehow believe that things just appeared and develped so artfully throughout the universe, without consciousness? Seriously!

Honestly, I think that un-conscious spontaneous creation is far harder to believe than conscious creation. You've got nothing behind things like the matter and energy to motivate it. Why in the heck would "stuff" even care to transform itself into a universe with no awareness to motivate it? That's what really needs to be addressed. Why do we need to complicate the simplicity of things? It makes far more sense that there was a consciousness in the beginning. It's just logical, period.

Am I saying I understand how the creator came to be? No. But, creation is, again, logical. No need to complicate things more than they are.

I'm done, I need to sleep.

Troy

I don't easily believe other people's personal accounts of OOBE's, spiritual experiences, abductions/alien encounters, ghost experiences, or anything of that nature. I haven't really experienced anything substantial that I can't explain.

However, I don't grant "scientists" any more credibility than people who talk about their personal experiences. They're just people with nifty machines who pretend to know what it all means. In most cases, they're just making assumptions based on their own experiences and preconceived notions. They are not infallible.

Personally, I think the goal of "science" should be to prove scientists wrong, not to prove philosophers and theologians wrong. That only creates endless arguments. Scientists proving "accepted science" wrong, that is advancement. Scientists trying to use "accepted science" to prove spiritual beliefs wrong is counter-productive. As science advances, old ideas fall by the wayside naturally and new ones flourish.

I think it's more important and more progressive to challenge one's own "beliefs" rather than the "beliefs" of others.