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OBE, God, Astrology, Debunked!

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posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 03:32 AM
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(I suppose this belongs here) (Mods please read before removing)


In this thread, I will attempt to “Debunk”, most beliefs acquired by those here on ATS, who really do believe in The Supernatural Phenomena.
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Deities/God


At the University of California in San Diego, neuroscientist VS Ramachandran noticed that a disproportionate number of patients - around a quarter - with a condition called temporal lobe epilepsy reported having deeply moving religious experiences. "They'd tell me they felt a presence or suddenly felt they got the meaning of the whole cosmos. And these could be life-changing experiences," says Ramachandran. The feelings always came during seizures, even if the seizures were so mild, they could only be detected by sensitive electroencephalograms (EEGs). Between the seizures, some patients became preoccupied with thoughts about God.

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I’ll start with this, by Dr. Ramachandran. A Great Neurologist, If you don’t know him, you can research him Here Now, he has conquered many areas of neurology, and has been presented at TED presenting how the brain works, and how God plays into it, also his findings in ‘Phantom Limbs’, bringing about much -relief to those with “Phantom” pain. Go figure.
Source
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Now what he goes on to explain, in the first quote posted, is that ‘Unnoticeable’, seizures in the temporal lobe, has caused deeply moving religious experiences, now this may mean nothing to some, but the world to others, if a seizure so minute, that can be noticed only on highly sensitive equipment, cause religious experiences, this is beautiful, we understand another aspect of what makes us believe in a god.
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Now you may rebuttal with, well we have Yahweh, Krishna, and Such, well the mind is infamous to filling in blanks, but I won’t go into this, unless acted upon.
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This may be a naturally occurring disorder in most people, which may lead them to be pastors, preachers, deacons, and popes and bishops, Imams, and what have you, these people will be “Moved” to act in the way to express what they have felt, fantastic!
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For the rest, they will see how strongly it has impacted them, as Dawkins put it, “I don’t Doubt your sincerity, I doubt your belief!” Now this speaks volumes, a person on acid, may truly believe that something is there, but we all know there is nothing there, that the said person sees!
Now, what tickles me pink is, that 9 out of 10 Indonesians are willing to die, for said God. If that doesn’t surprise you, think of those who “practice what they preach”.

Now Andy Thomson Said brilliantly, quoting another source albeit, that when kids were presented with a puppet show, in the puppet show, a Mouse was ultimately eaten by a Alligator. Now the kids (of 4 years old) were presented with a series of questions afterward. Questions like, “Does the mouse still need to eat”, No unanimously, “Does the mouse still need to breathe?” No unanimously. “What does the mouse think?” Obviously, he wishes he didn’t get eaten, he wishes he was still alive, he this and that. And it is here, where we would’ve created and fabricated the idea of a deity, since at the tender age of a child, we cannot process in our brains the idea of death, since we’d still suppose the mouse, to be thinking. Very wise man.

To add, an estimated, ½ of 4 year olds, have Imaginary Friends.

Now off the topic of God/s.
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Astrology

Aha, Astrology, one of the easiest ones to explain, but somehow in the age of Nuclear Physics, and the Understandings of Human behavior and Psychology, we still tend to like, the idea that orbits of planets, somehow affect who we are and what we are, due to our birthdays.

Here Is the barnum effect in place.

The basics of the barnum effect have been Tested and proven to affect everyone religion, tested here as well.

Now it can be as simple, as “you’ve thought about writing a book but afraid it may be too boring, or not accepted”, or “When you go to sleep at night some nights, you re-think your statements of the day, or a conversation that you had, and wish to re-write it, but know you can’t, and find it foolish thinking.”

Everyone has the feelings, but there nothing talked about, and presumed true by the said receiver!
Out of Body Experiences-


Now, this albeit may be the toughest to be debunked, solely since it’s a purely based upon observation alone, and stories, which repeat in a mantra, “you have no idea”. I agree, I have no idea what it was like, but I can explain how it happened.

An estimated one out of ten people will or have experienced an ‘Out of body Experience’. Same can be said of Female date violence or rape.
Source

Now, as stated earlier, I don’t doubt people experience OBE’s, I doubt that it is real. Some people can do horrendous acts, without guilt or regret, many start off small, and can lead to killing ants, to turtles, to small animals, to humans, to genocide. Now OBE’s, none of which I have heard of, involved the destruction of a creature. But believe it isn’t far from it in the thought. No offense intended, you should see it.


But according to recent work by neuroscientists, they can be induced by delivering mild electric current to specific spots in the brain. In one woman, for example, a zap to a brain region called the angular gyrus resulted in a sensation that she was hanging from the ceiling, looking down at her body. In another woman, electrical current delivered to the angular gyrus produced an uncanny feeling that someone was behind her, intent on interfering with her actions.


Now here, we have the “God Helmet” in practice, electronic signals, pushed into the brain that caused paranormal experiences, now I do believe that someone can, meditate and force themselves to have the same experience, just that the thought of this being paranormal I disagree with because, well even though it isn’t normal, it’s certainly not to be labeled spiritual.

I announce to you, that the brain is a very complex piece of matter, but making it’s practices something spiritual or of the other matter, is wrong, and without backing.

The God Helmet Is quite the turning point for science. Found by pushing Electromagnetic waves in the brain, which causes certain, susceptible people, (Dawkins Excluded, Since he only felt, ‘funny’ just not a presence or OBE that others had) to have feelings of a presence, to ‘seeing’ god, or ‘seeing’ aliens, it’s all very real, and does not need the event to actually take place, just currents.

Now closing this thread, if there are any questions, or ‘devout’ believers, that say this is real, I know it to be real, and have gone through all the links of said topic, please feel free to debunk the debunked, if I can say that word.

I ask as normally, for the minor or childish posts as in, “Your dumb”, “Your Gay”, “You know Nothing”, “Burn in hell”. Such post U2U’s be kept away, if you strongly believe against, offer me a debate, for those not willing, feel free to post against.

Thank you for reading of course, as always. Hope this is a better, milder, and more friendlier thread.


[edit on 31-8-2009 by Republican08]

Edits for typos.




[edit on 31-8-2009 by Republican08]

[edit on 31-8-2009 by Republican08]




posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 04:14 AM
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To add to this threads sources here goes.
Beliefs in the Afterlife
Temporal Lobe Epilepsy
Case for Evolution
Instant Religious Conversions
lol this is what I get for not adhering to the laws of K.I.S.S
Just a few, thought worth regarding, personal thread albeit.

[edit on 31-8-2009 by Republican08]



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 05:41 AM
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There isn't much I can actually add to this topic and I apologise for being the first poster to post. I've seen that helmet being put into practice to reproduce an OOBE but what is produced is something that's nothing like an OOBE. They do feel a sensation like they're out of their body, but they can't float through walls, climb to the sky, or do whatever they want to do, really.

I'm not the best OOBE dude, but have had a few. Maybe it is all just a chemical reaction or something. It could definitely be true. Though, let's go back to the God Helmet.

In an OOBE the participant is sometimes able to see and feel a separate form split from themselves. In fact, some of the time they can be pulling themselves up from their physical being, trying to get out from their body. People with the helmet don't experience this. OOBEs can be initiated during sleep paralysis and it maybe a release of chemicals in the brain causing a rather vivid illusion. It could be true, and at the same time it mightn't be.

A lot of skilled people that can have OOBEs also have the freedom to explore and roam within their house and other places; through walls even. There have been tests (I have no sources, sorry) where subjects have to find a card of something with something on it (letters and numbers perhaps) and the participants, without having seen these cards before, are able to tell the people observing them the correct characters displayed on the paper or something. With the God Helmet, the user only has linear control of what they can do.

There was a time, too, where I was in sleep paralysis and was about to initiate an OOBE. It was very weird because I kept fluctuating between my physical and astral bodies. It was very weird, actually. Ill sum up what happened. I had a dream and I reached a certain point where I started to float up toward the sky (in the dream). The dream faded out and I engaged in sleep paralysis. Instantly, I switched to my astral vision and started rising up toward my ceiling. As I ascended, I tried to break out of the paralysis and I could only open my eyelids a quarter of the way. There was nothing out of the ordinary when I "opened" my eyes. Suddenly, the shut closed again and I switch to my astral body, which was continuing it's ascent toward the ceiling.

I switched between the bodies a couple times more and it was the end of that. It still strikes me as difficult to explain to this day. Was a very unique experience. Well, unique to me, anyway.

Sorry if this post contains a lot of errors, but I never reread my posts or anything. I hate reading over the things I say because I look stupid. That's my 10 cents on the matter of the OOBE, though. I dunno about that others.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 05:45 AM
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reply to post by Whine Flu
 


As, weird as it sounds, do you think you could go, more, Indepth into your experience, if it's not to much to ask.

Kind of got into the feel of it, then it cut off so to speak.

Wow Deja Vu. And at first errored in spelling to Jeda Vu, just thought i'd put in there.

Wow, deja vu still isn't going away, longest it's ever been, and still typing. Freaky.

Back to the point (still deja vu) can you elaborate more upon your experience, as indepth as possible, no matter if your unsure or not, just indepth as possible.

[edit on 31-8-2009 by Republican08]



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 05:54 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


Has anyone repeated and verified Ramachandran's study? What about the other 75% of the patients. Did they just have seizures too and no religious visions? If seizures cause religious visions then how come 3/4ths of the people having seizures didn't have religious visions?

How did they determine that the seizures caused the visions and not the other way around? How did he find out that it's not the visions causing the seizures?

Kind of like, have you ever seen the read head on a hard drive go crazy when it's reading data from a fragmented drive? Looks like it is having a spastic attack sometimes and like a seizure, but you wouldn't say the hard drive hallucinated all the data on the disk just because it vibrated a little bit would you?

How did they rule out that effect? That when the brain picks up information from some external 6th sense source that maybe it causes seizures? Could they determine if this is or is not the case somehow?

Anyway, modern day religious visions I never put so much stock in. However, maybe the seizures would explain this line of the Bible about the false prophets.

"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

I doubt it though lol.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 06:15 AM
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reply to post by tinfoilman
 


For Ramachandran he has gone underneath a bit of skepticism.

It's found that the more the person is willing to believe, the more they will encounter the 'truth' that they believe pushed by the disorder.

Much to learn from Ramachandran.




How did they determine that the seizures caused the visions and not the other way around? How did he find out that it's not the visions causing the seizures?


Well because 'exciting', or provided electrical and magnetic currents provided the same results, or near the same results.



Kind of like, have you ever seen the read head on a hard drive go crazy when it's reading data from a fragmented drive?


I thought my computer was going to explode, ducked and covered like an atom bomb was going to be dropped! LMAO. Back on topic.




"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."

I doubt it though lol.


Your afraid that people with seizures maybe real prophets their seizures may just be that of real visions just false medical evalutations, such as the man in these videos, who is a real prophet or leader of men?



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 06:40 AM
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Yeah, sure thing. I can remember almost all of the experience crystal clear. Some of the details may be just a tiny bit hazy, but it'll have most of the crucial info mostly. This event probably won't be significant or groundbreaking, but here goes. Oh, and one more thing. I'll discuss how I enter sleep paralysis first, and then go into my experience. This'll make it easier to understand. Well, hopefully:

To reach a state of sleep paralysis I can't do it just out of will or if I have a good nights sleep. What I will do, though, is manage to have around 5 hours or so of sleep. Sometimes, I might just become alert and end up waking up, but I'll feel really groggy and will need to finish up the sleep process with more sleep. After 5 hours or so of sleep I may get up and do something for a half hour or so just so I can get sleepy enough to get back to sleep. Once I do get back to bed, I'll feel really relaxed if I lay on my back with my eyes closed, drifting off to sleep.

Because I'll be in a rather drowsy state and not feel restored, chances are my body will feel very light. When you lie on your back while feeling light chances are you might feel a slight floating sensation or the feeling that you're drifting away. Perhaps it's a self induced trance because you're so comfortable? I dunno. Anyway, when you finally do reach the stage where you will sleep, there's a much higher chance of having a dream. This dream could be vivid with a lot of weird things going on, or it may be a dream that's vital to you getting sleep paralysis. Since we already know what vivid dreams are like, I'll discuss the important sleep paralysis inducing dreams.

Alrightey, so there you are sleeping and you end up in a dream. This dream will be scripted for the most part and the stuff that happens will just be the usual weird stuff that happens in dreams. To make it easier to imagine, I'll talk about the particular event I was talking about earlier. It all starts with a dream...

So here I am in a field. It's a pale gren colour and for some reason, I seem to have a low fence surrounding me. I walk up to the fence and I notice a padlock on it. This is pretty weird, because well, why would you need to put a padlock around an short, iron fence? It's nonsensical. I step over the fence and walk around for a little bit. After a little bit of walking around I hear a soft female voice saying "I love you" over and over. Perhaps I've got an admirer?


I go to look for the source of the sound and I soon find it. I suspect it was a blue tape recorder that was playing the loop over and over. Once I turned it off I found myself floating up to the sky in my dream. As I looked down I saw a puzzled looking bipedal wolf looking up at me. This is where things get interesting. While floating up toward the sky I suddenly break out of the dream and undergo sleep paralysis.

Sleep paralysis episodes can vary from person to person. Most commonly they can be accompanied with sounds similar to this:


As you can imagine, a lot of very freaky things can happen. Some people hallucinate and see silhouettes, but most commonly you will hear a low frequency sound and a multitude of other noises. Sometimes high pitched frequencies. If you concentrate, too, you can actually bring about another high pitched sound to reach the pitch of the other high pitched frequency that's able to be heard. Accompanied with this is the feeling of your body violently shaking and vibrating. Physically, you won't even be moving at all, but you can still feel it, but I digress. I thought I'd get this out of the way before going any further. It's just another useful bit of info.

So where were we? That's right, I just hit sleep paralysis. The time was roughly 8:30am and it was sunny outside. My body vibrates and in my "astral form" (I use this term for the lack of a better term), I begin my ascent toward my ceiling. My vision in my other form seemed to be somewhat blurry, but the details of my ceiling were very accurate. I didn't feel like having an OOBE for some weird reason, so I tried to break out of it. I managed to open my eyes a quarter of the way and it seemed I was in my physical form. I still couldn't move, but from what I saw in my normal vision was fairly typical. Just my usual bedroom surroundings. Nothing creepily out of place. Suddenly, my eyes shut again and I see a big white orb in my physical closed eye vision pan from my left to the center of my vision. I appear back into my astral form and I continue my ascent toward my celing.

I try to open my eyes again, and I can only open them a quarter of the way again. They shut again and I'm back in my astral form, continuing to levitate toward the celing. I manage to break out of it and I wake up again in my physical body. You'd think after something so zany happening you'd think I'd be on edge. I shrugged it off and thought "Oh well, at least you've got it in you to do something like this, good work" and then went back to sleep.

This is where that experience ends, really. Well, sorta. Actually, I suspect around 30 minutes later I actually had another dream. This dream may not be significant information, but for me it feels personally significant, and in turn, could've actually meant that there was another being trying to evoke the OOBE in the first place.

In this (what I feel to be a) follow up dream, I'm at a party and I get drunk. What occured was typical of what you'd expect from an alcoholic get together with friends. After that happened, I awake (in my dream, still) and walk "home".

I find myself in this field where there is a girl standing there with a sorta oldish bike. The girl was VERY beautiful, though. She was probably around my age, was at least 6' tall, had a brilliant tan, wore a baby blue dress and had the most amazing eyes I had ever seen. They were so wise and omnipotent. It was as if she could see through the very fabric of time, and through my soul. She was absolutely breathtaking.

Anyway, I asked her for directions to some place. She replied "I'm sorry, I'm unable to help as I don't know this place very well" or something along the lines of that. After that, during the dream, my mum walks up the bank next to where we were, stands next to her and then congratulates me on being able to see the dead. This is where the dream ends and the beautiful girl and my mum look back at me. The girl smiled and looked compassionate and loving.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 06:45 AM
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Anyway, I woke up feeling very warm and relieved. I wonder if I'll ever see that girl again. Perhaps she was a spirit that tried to evoke an OOBE. Why do I say this? Well, there has been speculation that when you do have an OOBE that some may encounter orbs around them that protect them as they're out of their body. Perhaps she was my guardian angel? Perhaps she was a succubus? I dunno. I sensed that she definitely wasn't a succubus as she didn't have sexual desires and seemed like she wanted to help me or guide me.

I hope that one day I do see her again. Well, assuming she's a good entity! Otherwise, I'd be screwed.


That, Republican08, is my long story. I'm not too sure if it's what you wanted, but that's every single thing that happened to me during that time.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 07:01 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


While I'm very skeptical of such "supernatural" goings on I still have yet to shake the feeling that part of it is true. No I don't believe in some incompetent celestial beings ruling our world but at the saem time I think there may be some spiritual force or consciousness driving the whole Universe (maybe it IS the Universe). While you can debunk a particular religion or claim the experiences were brought on by seizures that doesn't make the experiences invalid as powerfully moving and potentially life changing events. Whether brought on by some all powerful sky being or triggered by drugs/mental issues the experience is no less real.

This of course brings us to metaphysics and the debate over what is real and how we define reality outside of our narrow senses.

I've had some powerful emotional experiences I would term spiritual, I could care less what caused them because nothing compares to the feeling one gets when you usurp reality, when the rules are bent and broken, when you have that epiphany moment or deep thought that seems to arrive from nowhere.

Even an illusion can be real enough to kill, look what's happened in human history over the illusions of religion and superstition. Our society is built on illusions and abstracts many of which have no real basis other than we made them up, and yet we can sense them, feel their effects and influence...



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by Republican08
reply to post by tinfoilman
 


Your afraid that people with seizures maybe real prophets their seizures may just be that of real visions just false medical evalutations, such as the man in these videos, who is a real prophet or leader of men?


Well I don't know. It was sort of a joke, but sort of an I wonder too. That's why I said I doubt it. I mean I don't know much about visions. Now my brother has seizures every now and then. But he doesn't have any religious visions. Neither do I or anyone else I know. I don't have seizures either. So.........I'm basically at a loss here.

The Bible verse I was talking about would have been referring to false prophets with fake visions and not "real" visions if there is such a thing as a "real" vision. In Bible times your vision had to come true or you'd be called a false prophet.

So, apparently what we can take away from that, is that they had false visions back then too.


It's funny though that we find ourself here because you say when directly stimulating the brain it caused the religious visions. Well I have seen other cases of this type of situation where stimulation caused people to think they're being watched.

Also causes them to see shadow people. And even causes them see gray aliens sometimes. One theory is sleep paralysis is the actual cause of alien abductions too and a few people have claimed to have simulated sleep paralysis and made people see grays, but I can't find that particular article for the life of me right now.

Anyway, in this link I'm gonna post. Even says basically the same thing as you do. "'People will draw on the most plausible account in their repertoire to explain their experience"

Alien Abduction? Science Calls It Sleep Paralysis

Take it from someone that gets sleep paralysis (strangely enough only when I'm sleeping on the floor). I do feel like I'm being watched by a shadowy figure and I can't wake up and I can't move. SUCKS! But the whole time I know I'm not actually being watched. Just feels like it.

But also take it from someone that's pretty sure, while completely wide awake, he also saw a REAL shadow person directly in front of him trying to get into his house. You don't confuse the two. They're two different things and one is not sleep paralysis. One sucks and is annoying. The other requires a change of underpants. But that's a topic for other day.

The point is we again find ourselves right back at the same impasse. Many things that would prove religion false also prove that aliens and other such things are false. The same things that make some people have religious visions also explain the aliens that people claim to have seen too. Which leads us right back to the start. Are we all alone in the universe? Scary thought huh?

But I wonder, if they directly stimulated my brain and I hallucinated an elephant, well does that mean elephants aren't real? Perhaps we shouldn't make the false conclusions too soon either.


[edit on 31-8-2009 by tinfoilman]



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 07:34 AM
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So "you" debunked astrology by using someone else's idea?
I personally believe 100% in astrology. I have used it for pretty much everything such as work, home and relationships since I was 14. I have read a lot about astrology and IMO it does work. It can be complicated and hard to understand but once you really look into it, it does make sense. I am 100% my sign with some traits of another since I am almost on the cusp. I find my horoscopes very informative and they help ME. I am not saying they will help everyone but I have a better understanding of astrology than most people I know. I have done my astrological birth chart and I will tell you it really freaked me out. It was quite accurate. I dont have any links for you since this all my own personal experience with astrology.
Why do you think astrology needs to be debunked?

Also I am not a religious person in any way..since you mentioned religion in the astrology part.

[edit on 8/31/2009 by mblahnikluver]



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 07:43 AM
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Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: Regarding Deities. I have 2! I won't discuss Achlys with you as I'm not allowed to convert anyone but I am willing to discuss the universe which is TOTALLY congruent with what I define GOD to be! No God?
That would mean NO EXISTENCE! Omnipresence is an IMPERITIVE A-PRIORI because if you don't start there then what have you got to work with?


Regarding Astrology. I can't and won't speak for anyone else and that just leaves me as my own example! Explain these multiple Astrological/Numerological congruence for me PLEASE as it bugs the hell outa my skeptical comfort zone!
ATS Source of my disclosure on this subject!

Regarding OBE's. I can only offer up that the currents that the GOD HELMET produces are not nescessarily UNIQUE to it and may just be able to be induced via other methods as yet unrecognized and or tested. The Event does take place for the wearer and this is evident by inducing the currents!


Personal Disclosure: I have yet to experience an OBE! But lucid dreaming sounds very similar to me and that OBE feelings has testable origins in the brain and the lab is just so very cool! I would love the GOD helmet in my basement for personal pleasure! I'd love to contact GOD at a flick of a button and some current induced tinfoil hat wearing as it would save me the 5-10mins meditation for me to reach this state! Methinks it includes God and doesn't count it out at all! Hooray! We finally have a REAL TELEPHONE TO GOD! Marconi, Edison, Tesla and Bell would be pleased I think. We got to get these test subjects ringing a number and to stop blowing out that the phone has a dialtone!



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 07:45 AM
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reply to post by mblahnikluver
 


I wanted to add this...



The earliest known astrological records date back to Babylon, 1645 BC, and the earliest horoscope to 410 BC. Astrology's origins can also be traced to several other locations and cultures, including Egypt, which developed sophisticated timekeeping and calendar science; Greece, where Ptolemy authored influential astrological and astronomical texts; and Rome, where many of the most learned men-including two emperors-were astrologers who wrote laws and counseled citizens based on the Stars.


This is one of my favorite sites for Astrology...It does seem to keep with what I have read about for years. I would like to know what brought you to the conclusion that this science is wrong and fake?

www.astrology.com...

en.wikipedia.org... (I know it's wiki but there is some really good information)

horoscope.findyourfate.com...


I am not trying to down you for your ideas but I would like to know more on why you feel this way besides the Barnum effect. Have you ever really looked into Astrology? I keep track of the moon and the sun and everything else and use it daily to make decisions and I tell you it has helped. Yes sometimes its been off but nothing is ever perfect, but I will tell you its been more accurate than not.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 10:16 AM
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What does Debunk mean really?

Most debunking is about the actual state of affairs. So proof for instance that something that people regard as a supernatural affair is a natural affair or as a ET phenomena (something outside our scientific realm) as a weather balloon (inside the scientific realm).

I think that instead of calling these things debunking, we should call it explaining, which is much more friendly and to the point, because that is all we do.

We explain something in whatever terms, nothing more.
The experience of a OBE exist, the name is correct, because it really feels and looks that way, but what is it exactly, that is the point.
Astrology is an explanation itself, and could be described as ancient knowledge. Ther is not much to debunk there because it is a expanation, nothing more, it is not a phenomena you can debunk. To debunk it, you first should have data that are required by astrology and then being able to explain them otherwise. (I think Hoagland tried that with replacing the Sun with the stars in the theory).

What "debunkers" often do, is trying to establish a position as leavelheaded thinkers/scientists versus the illogical/religious/superstitious assumptions of the "others".
That is why I think it is a negative description.
What we should do is, experience-think-tryout-falsify-experience think-tryout-falsify etcetera and we will notice that there is no reality or boundary in our way of experiencing and explaining. Every time you think your grab it , it changes and it is gone. Cool huh.

Karl Japers (philosoper) once said that that is the beauty and mystery of our reason. It wants to explain everything within a strict reference frame or logic, and when it is done, reason will break the logic or frame down, because it can't stay within it.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by Republican08
 


I don't buy these OBE experiments. I believe if you want to scientifically debunk an OBE, you must do it in a scientific fashion.

I'm not a hard core believer in the OBE phenomena, I'm rather divided on it. Real or fake, I do attempt it every couple of weeks.

But anyways, here's my argument about these experiments. And, the zapping experiment is close, but it's just not good enough.

If they want to debunk OBEs, they will have to find a group of subjects that are able to OBE conciously whenever they want to (Which is pretty rare)

and then put them under observation. An MRI machine would likely need to be used, so they could observe which parts of the brain are lighting up during the process and determine whether these parts of the brain are associated with hallucinations, dreams, religiosity, ect.

The problem with the God helmet experiment is that it uses a heavy external influence to simulate an OBE like experience but the scientists fail to account for the fact that people experiencing OBEs do not have this helmet on them, being controlled by a group of scientists.

These experiments also fail to account for the full OBE experience. A floating sensation, and paranoia is not an OBE. OBE's include very strong visual and audio experiences. But the god helmet experiment failed to produce more than "Oh I feel I am floating, and oh hey I feel jesus"

The number one problem with this science is that they failed to understand what they were trying to debunk before they claimed victory. Thus it left me shaking my head saying "You call this science" after they these experiments were passed off as proof.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 12:30 PM
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Star and flag, very interesting thread!

However, I don't think you have convincingly debunked any of them.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 12:38 PM
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debunkers need that book 'behind the iron curtain' where russian doctors [who are atleast half as smart as some magic guy who wants to debunk] and psychiatrists prove and test the theories of such things.startling read.



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 01:37 PM
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So you "debunked" astrology, the world's oldest science with THOUSANDS of years worth of proof, theories, experience, stories, etc by posting a youtube video of some street magician?

LOL!



posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 01:42 PM
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It seems rather like a waste of time, attempting to debunk ideas of such an esoteric nature. You can talk ALL you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that--in matters such as these--it's pretty much opinion vs opinion with extremely limited evidence or basis in accepted factual information.




posted on Aug, 31 2009 @ 06:23 PM
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Those diseases don't debunk God at all. I met God when I was a teen. He was flesh. A disease wouldn't disprove me meeting a flesh and blood God.



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