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Why is civil debate impossible on ATS?

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posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:36 PM
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I'm putting this in the Psychology forum because I have a feeling that the cause is psychological in nature. It seems that almost any thread you participate in here inevitably spirals down the drain into a hate soaked, name calling, spite filled fight. Instead of an exchange of ideas, and civilized debate of an issue or idea, it becomes a "I'm right, and your an idiot for not thinking my way" battle that is about as productive as shaving with a hamburger. It's the major reason that I find myself leaving this site for periods of time, as I feel like I'm losing IQ points by reading and posting here at times.

Any thoughts?

(I'm sure this thread will degrade into the afformentioned 'battle of the twits' before the first page is done!)




posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:40 PM
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Everyone's an expert and believes that their opinion prevails over others`.
But this is a forum...




posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:43 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 


because most things in life are in shades of grey...your reading peoples posts that express themselves in black or white terms.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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many of the evidences are ABOVE top secret. Therefore there is little evidence to support disscussion. Many people belive things are hidden that would prove them right. Without such unlimited access to "secret" information an incredibly thought out and polite discussion is impossible.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
I'm putting this in the Psychology forum because I have a feeling that the cause is psychological in nature.


I believe you are right. It boils down to "ego" imo. "I am NEVER wrong and I will defend my beliefs to the end." Nothing gets resolved, no one learns anything because it's :bnghd:.

Even in the face of info provided, that's ignored or cast off as a "biased source". It's just:



I've posted that before but it bears repeating imo. That's how nothing is accomplished. And as I said before, it's damn embarrassing.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:52 PM
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Instead of an exchange of ideas, and civilized debate of an issue or idea, it becomes a "I'm right, and your an idiot for not thinking my way" battle that is about as productive as shaving with a hamburger.


Have you ever demeaned someone for what they have expressed?

I personally try to remember that my way isn't always the correct way. I have had people call me or my thoughts blind, stupid, idiot/idiotic among other terms. When this happens, I have two options. Option 1 is to take the high road and ignore them or option 2 is to get down on their level.

I prefer option 1. I honestly believe that even if two people disagree they can still be respectful toward one another.

ATS is no different than the real world. You will have people disrespect you whether you like it or not I also think that sometimes our words don't come out as clearly as we want them to when we type them. This can also lead to misinterpretation and result in name calling.

Usually, when a thread starts into name calling, I know it is time to find another thread. And ATS has lots of them.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:53 PM
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I think it comes down to the subject matter Jaxon. I've had plenty of intelligent and civil conversation among the friends I've made in my almost one year at ATS.

However it's more when people come here with a bias look on a subject, we attempt to educate them, as any friend would do. It scares the crap out of them I think.

If they are wrong about one thing then they're whole knowledge bank could be flawed and people just don't want to learn things all over again.

I agree that sometimes I feel that I'm loosing IQ points, but I have learned to ignore the members that I deem unreasonable. It has helped alot.

I've NEVER used the ignore button as even those people could post something that would change my mind, I simply don't reply to their ignorance when it shows up.

It's hard to not sometimes, but it's getting better as the months go along.

Hopefully this one will be civil eh?
.

~Keeper



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 



I ran across this the other day when I was asking myself the very same question.

woodstock.georgetown.edu...



But one of the main reasons I think civil debate on ATS has gone by the wayside is because so many of the members have adopted the style of their hero's like Rush, Sean, Savage, etc. mainly conservatives where it really isn't a debate but but slash and burn tactics where education isn't the point but winning at all cost is. Personal attacks and name calling are just part of the strategy.

I call it the "People like you" mind set/ideology.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:57 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 

I agree.
I find myself deleting far more of what I write before posting than I ever used to.
I think the ptb use this site(among others) to guage public reaction anyway.
Lord knows there are enough shills on here that think nothing bad ever happens, except in our heads!

They convienently forget about the japanese american internment camps or have never heard of the inl injection wells or the downwinders still struggling for justice and they still think the ptb would never harm us!
Anything is always fair in war! As we have seen....
We may be actually helping them succeed in pacifying us,
instead of being able to do anything constructive about it.
By talking about it(and yes, arguing)we actually soothe ourselves.
Like a violent town hall meeting distraction for instance.
We would rather give our money to the banksters and war machine(who do no wrong) than help our own country's citizens. Ironic and stupid.
Same-o, same-o.
One side says this,
the other says that.
Maybe reality is a little bit of both sides.
Meanwhile the rape(and stupidity)continues.
Its just we are the only ones still watching apparently.
Thanks for the threads.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:59 PM
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Yes, I thought that the members on here would exchange ideas and knowledge and communicate better than much of the world. I'm sure almost none of us know each other personally so maybe we just need to communicate better, and fine different ways to get our opinions across rather than saying things along the lines of "You're stupid" or "You idea's retarded" No one knows everything
( that's why we share knowledge?), and everyone has their own opinion. I thought of ALL places ATS would be a place where everyone could understand each other, but sometimes...there's just those few outraged people that don't belong here I guess...



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by jam321
 


I can't say that I have not been caught up in it, but I also try not to sink down to that level (not always successful though). I do find that retreating to BTS is a healthy alternative (Thank you for providing it!). I have also noticed that the more rational members have a fair number of BTS points, so I'm guessing that I'm not the only one. The more irrational members tend to have few, if any, BTS points. Now that I think about it, maybe that could be a good gauge on which type you are dealing with here!



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 02:03 PM
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I think in the overwhelming majority of cases, you get what you give, or at least what you expect. It takes two to make a fight.

Perception is a funny thing. People might have a tendency to look at an avatar or user name, for example, and draw a conclusion that the member is inclined to be dismissive of any viewpoint with which he doesn't agree.

Sometimes people create the circumstance and then are shocked at the near inevitable outcome, which would be another related psychological issue.


(I'm sure this thread will degrade into the afformentioned 'battle of the twits' before the first page is done!)


Self-fulfilling prophecy?



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 02:08 PM
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Hi Dr. Roberts!
I'm here.
I've befriended you.
I promise I'll never let my opinions get in the way of any debate I have.
You can pull your head out of your butt now



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

The more irrational members tend to have few, if any, BTS points. Now that I think about it, maybe that could be a good gauge on which type you are dealing with here!


Oh man, I have only 40 BTS points... Dang. Now they are on to me.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 02:14 PM
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There have been many threads like this one but recently it seems to be a bigger issue in 2009 and in my humble opinion will only get worse as times are equaly bad.

As one poster already said, people are sharing their OPINIONS nothing more, not based on fact or proof but how they feel. That is always going to create problems in a thread.

Others base their comments as black and white facts as another poster stated and that seems to irritate and promote disagreement and name calling in some.

In conclusion, there are simply "A" Holes out there that simply enjoy thrashing other peoples threads because they have nohing better to do with their lives and are not quick enough to post a simular article or thread so they start name calling and stuff. This is so your thread losses interest to others and that nobody else will post killing the thtead it it's tracks. Those are the losers of ATS.

I am a black and white kind of quy, speaking in the grey is all about opinions and not facts to back it up so I would rather people not post on my threads and I'll be just fine lol...



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 02:15 PM
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'Impossible' is a very big word. I feel that 'improbable' and 'difficult' are more accurate.
It is very difficult for me to cast aside ideas I have believed all my life. It's certainly not impossible but takes a lot of work and substantial risk on my part.
My reality has been pasted together over dome forty some odd years and it is a gargantuan task for me to let my reality go without some sort of fight. When my mind is working the way I'd like to, the fight is entirely internal. When my spoiled, ignorant child takes over, the fight is projected outwards. Sometimes it is far easier to try and get you to cede than it is for me to accept the truth that my reality was and is faulted.
For me, an important part of this process that you folks are leading me through, often kicking and screaming, is that I have to willing to question what I believe and at least ponder the possibility that I may have been wrong all along. This is a daunting task to say the least and not for the faint of heart, or those not willing to experience the pain of growth.
It also takes a level of maturity and some freedom from the bondage of self.
So Jaxon, impossible? I don't reaaly think so. Rare, necessary, potentialy frightening and liberating? Most definitely.
Great thread.



 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 02:31 PM
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If civil debate is one's desire, then join a debate team.

If one is passionate and focused, then ATS is your meat.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
I'm putting this in the Psychology forum because I have a feeling that the cause is psychological in nature.

hate soaked, name calling, spite filled fight.

"I'm right, and your an idiot for not thinking my way" battle

as productive as shaving with a hamburger.

I feel like I'm losing IQ points by reading and posting here at times.

(I'm sure this thread will degrade into the afformentioned 'battle of the twits' before the first page is done!)


You might have a hand in it as well.

It really didn't start out on a positive note and you have already implied that others are twits and they will be the ones to degrade the thread before the first reply was even posted.

Maybe it isn't ALL due to other people.

[edit on 023131p://f54Sunday by badgerprints]



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by badgerprints
 

(I'm sure this thread will degrade into the afformentioned 'battle of the twits' before the first page is done!)


LMAO, I can't help it but you made his point on two levels!
First, you couldn't let it go and had to give your negative opinion about what he started off saying.

Secondly, you are one of the few that chose to degrade the thread lol...

Now go ahead and start your already attacks as I couldn't help but point that out!




[edit on 06/03/2009 by Rams59lb]



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by Rams59lb
 



I didn't insult him or run him down. I pointed out something that he may not even realize.

Sometimes others see us very differently than we see ourselves. His choice of avatar should be a clue as to how others might see him or how he sees them. Some might not see it as humorous. (It is but that's just my opinion.)

As for degrading the thread, is it degrading to be honest in a simple and concise way?

I simply gave him clear examples from his own post to illustrate the point that he might have a hand in some of the things he is unhappy with.

The idea that starting a thread by insulting people is going to bring about a
positive result is not very logical. I have refrained from any insults but at least I was honest enough to give him some constructive feedback.

He wants to discuss the psychology of civil debate but begins with insults. Shall I just smile and agree with him? Empathize with him about everybody else being wrong while he is a victim? Or wouldn't it make sense to point out that he might need to approach things a little differently to get a better result.

If he doesn't want honesty then he can ask for that at the beginning of the thread but he asked the question, "Any thoughts?"

The answer to the question "Why is is impossible to have civil debate on ATS?" is that it is not impossible.

It is absolutely possible and happens quite often.



[edit on 043131p://f15Sunday by badgerprints]



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