Independent Investigation Into Pentagon Attack Yields Alarming Information

Originally posted by tezzajw

I wish that I knew what happened at the Pentagon. You've certainly failed to prove a consistent story to me. Why don't you try and work a little harder to prove your official government story version?

Casual reader to this thread will note tezzalini likes to apply the world failed to other people. How does this to avoid the fact that he is not able to contribute one shred of evidence that anything other than what has been been reported on the plane crash at the Pentagon is a matter of fully documented history.

His pathetic attempts to avoid his failure here and I'd venture personally come down to lame attempts at nitpicking posts of other contributors.

He knows that if he were to confront the hundreds of people who dealt with the destruction and dead bodies they saw and handled with his asinine attempts to call them liars - they'd call him an idiot and tell him where to go.

So are we to believe this haranguing conspiracy list troll or all the honest people who dealt with something that must have been terrible yet don't feel the need to elaborate on the horrors they witnessed.


M



[edit on 1-10-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
Casual reader to this thread will note tezzalini likes to apply the world failed to other people.

Casual readers to this thread, it's interesting that when pteridine ran out of excuses and failed to support his claims, he resorted to his default option - name calling.

Now, devoid of proof for his claims, mmiichael has resorted to calling me the same name that pteridine did.

They've both resorted to calling me 'tezzalini', with mmiichael also calling me 'chicken...t' on the previous page.

There you have it, as clear as the text on your screen, the last ditched efforts of two official government story believers who can not prove their claims and their resort to juvenile name-calling.

Originally posted by mmiichael
He knows that if he were to confront the hundreds of people who dealt with the destruction and dead bodies they saw and handled with asinine attempts to call them liars - they'd call him an idiot and tell him where to go.

mmiichael, it is pertinent to your proof that you should supply the names and statements of all the people whom you claim found passenger bodies strapped to airline seats.

So far, you and pteridine have shown one unconfirmed witness report that is not mentioned in any official government investigation.

I strongly suggest that you work on your proof, stick to the thread's topic and stop your name-calling.

Perhaps you should engage in some investigation instead of your inguesstivation?

[edit on 1-10-2009 by tezzajw]

Originally posted by tezzajw
mmiichael, it is pertinent to your proof that you should supply the names and statements of all the people whom you claim found passenger bodies strapped to airline seats.

Like some haranguing troll on an conspiracy site thread actually believes he can make demands. That's a laugh.

You've been given excerpts and told where you can find fuller details.

Since you doubt the information provided by people who were there, your best recourse is to confront them with your claims that they are all lying. Report back their reactions.

You don't want to accept wreckage of a plane with dead passengers were in the Pentagon. But all the proof is there. If you're too lazy to follow up on it, that's your problem.

Maybe you're afraid to have your flyover fantasies or whatever shot down.
Well you better show everyone there's more to it than some dopey youtube. Show us your evidence passengers weren't strapped into seats as people who were there have said.

Casual readers of your farcical evasions wait to see what information you supply that contradicts anything that has been documented.




[edit on 1-10-2009 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
You don't want to accept wreckage of a plane with dead passengers were in the Pentagon. But all the proof is there. If you're too lazy to follow up on it, that's your problem.

Casual readers, this is the part where mmiichael drifts into his world of obscure claims - where he makes things up that I never stated.

I asked mmiichael to prove his two very specific claims:
1 - passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats.
2 - rear seated passenger bodies were found relatively intact.

All that mmiichael has to do is to prove these claims.

Instead, he has avoided, deflected and then finally used name-calling. He's invented things that I have not stated or claimed, and basically made things up along the way.

Originally posted by mmiichael
Maybe you're afraid to have your flyover fantasies or whatever shot down.

mmiichael, you join an exclusive list of official government story supporters who have made false claims about me. In the past I've had this same argument with jthomas. He was given the same challenge as you, to quote me and guess what... he never did.

Please, search my 3900+ posts and quote me where I stated that a fly-over occured.

Your failure to do so will be an admission that you were wrong and that you made a false claim about me.

It's quite obvious that the fiction you have typed tonight represents the only form of argument that you have left.

I strongly urge you to stop making your false claims, stop your name-calling and try to prove your claims. No doubt, continuing in your current way, you'll eventually attract the attention of the Moderators who are aware of when members use name-calling and when members spread false information about other members.

I will accept your retraction of your false claims about me, if you decide that you're honest enough to admit them.

Originally posted by Lillydale
Where was the cooked meat at the Pentagon? I think what you are missing here is that this DNA was sooooooooooo hardy that it withstood the same heat and force the destroyed the bodies and the plane carrying that DNA. What exactly were they getting these hardy samples from?

There is no need to be defensive - I'm from the UK and know little data about 9/11 so I don't have a 'side' in this debate.

However, even in this sort of collision and fire there would still be DNA found in good enough condition to make an identification.

In support, I remember seeing on "Air Crash Investigations" a crash where an airliner hit the ground at a steep angle at very high speed. The biggest parts remaining were a couple of inches at best and there was a large fire but they still managed to find DNA for many of the passengers. The entire aircraft had literally just disappeared.

Imagine a balloon filled with 150lb water hitting a concrete floor at 500mph. It would spread a long way.

The reason DNA isn't completely obliterated in a high speed collision is because it has very little mass. An excellent analogy: You can drop a mouse down a thousand-yard mine shaft; on arriving at the bottom, it gets a slight shock and walks away. A rat is killed, a man is broken, a horse splashes - JBS Haldane - "On Being The Right Size". In addition, we only need some of many areas of the two sets of DNA in a cell to make an identification.

I take from your response that DNA being found is part has been used to lend support to the conspiracy theory?

For what it worth, cursory examination makes WTC7 and the Pentagon stories look suspect to me.

reply to post by LightFantastic

Originally posted by LightFantastic

Originally posted by Lillydale
Where was the cooked meat at the Pentagon? I think what you are missing here is that this DNA was sooooooooooo hardy that it withstood the same heat and force the destroyed the bodies and the plane carrying that DNA. What exactly were they getting these hardy samples from?

There is no need to be defensive - I'm from the UK and know little data about 9/11 so I don't have a 'side' in this debate.

However, even in this sort of collision and fire there would still be DNA found in good enough condition to make an identification.

In support, I remember seeing on "Air Crash Investigations" a crash where an airliner hit the ground at a steep angle at very high speed. The biggest parts remaining were a couple of inches at best and there was a large fire but they still managed to find DNA for many of the passengers. The entire aircraft had literally just disappeared.

Imagine a balloon filled with 150lb water hitting a concrete floor at 500mph. It would spread a long way.

The reason DNA isn't completely obliterated in a high speed collision is because it has very little mass. An excellent analogy: You can drop a mouse down a thousand-yard mine shaft; on arriving at the bottom, it gets a slight shock and walks away. A rat is killed, a man is broken, a horse splashes - JBS Haldane - "On Being The Right Size". In addition, we only need some of many areas of the two sets of DNA in a cell to make an identification.

I take from your response that DNA being found is part has been used to lend support to the conspiracy theory?

For what it worth, cursory examination makes WTC7 and the Pentagon stories look suspect to me.

Hey LightFantastic; the alleged passenger DNA that was allegedly recovered at the pentagon actually supports the official story. You seem to make some good points in defense of the DNA, but I would definitely like to know what plane was being investigated on your show; because if it was, say, Flight 93, then I think many here could tell you that there are a lot of anomalies concerning that plane. In other words, that investigation appears to have been tampered with as well.

Personally, I've been getting into this DNA thing only because it's something that official story supporters bring up; I myself have found that the evidence, including the impossible pull up from a 10-34 G dive (depending on whether or not you go for the NTSB data; the NTSB data is the one that brings it up to 34 Gs) in order to hit the light poles and enter the pentagon low and level as seen in the (most likely fabricated) pixelated 5 frame pentagon parking lot video. There's the issue that if the light poles were hit, they should have been bent at the point of impact, not cut off rather cleanly from the ground. I heard of a story where an airplane hit -1- light pole; the plane crashed; the light pole didn't even get fully severed. Somehow we're supposed to believe that the plane pulled out of a 10-34 G dive to hit and cleanly severe 5 light poles (inexplicably cleanly severed from the bottom no less), supposedly have one engine hit the ground -before- hitting the pentagon and yet, the pentalawn shows no trace of this.

Meanwhile, all the credible witnesses have claimed that the plane approached the pentagon from the north side of the Citgo gas station. This, in turn, would mean that the plane simply couldn't have hit the pentagon because of the simple fact that the damage to the pentagon was directional; that is, if the plane didn't crash into the building from the south side, it couldn't have crashed into the building at all.

So what happened to the plane if it didn't crash into the pentagon? There have been reports that it may well have landed at a nearby airport; I believe it may have been Reagan International. I have also heard that there was a secretive program going on there at the time and that people who were in that program have since died; perhaps they were felt to know too much. Anyway, if I can find the source for what I read, I'll try to bring it up here.

reply to post by Lillydale


What happened to your "physical evidence" requirement? The statement of the witness describing the entry of the aircraft into the Pentagon was part of the "official record," does that count?
What is your scenario for the Pentagon attack, Lillydale? What series of events do you postulate based on th eevidence that you have so carefully filtered?

reply to post by LightFantastic


Okay, I did not want to open a can of worms when I can't sit here all day and argue it, but this is my area of study. Anyone curious can U2U me as to my credentials as I don't like identifying information about me on the Internet.

This is not like an airline hitting the ground as in flight 93. It penetrated a building and according to the firefighters on the scene the fires were difficult to extinguish fully (very lengthy) due to the nature of the crash. According to sources it was constrained by the building and therefore created a mini oven, of sorts. There may have been DNA available for some of the passengers, but not likely if what I read about the crash site is true.

Flight 93, yes. The Trade Center, yes. Pentagon, highly unlikely, unless the government's OT are incorrect (which may also be the case). There may be DNA for individuals inside of the Pentagon when it hit, that I will believe. Absolutely.

There is a reason why people will use automobiles and potato chip bags to set the fires in murder cases. Woops gotta go.

Originally posted by tezzajw
It's quite obvious that the fiction you have typed tonight represents the only form of argument that you have left.

I strongly urge you to stop making your false claims, stop your name-calling and try to prove your claims. No doubt, continuing in your current way, you'll eventually attract the attention of the Moderators who are aware of when members use name-calling and when members spread false information about other members.

I will accept your retraction of your false claims about me, if you decide that you're honest enough to admit them.

Casual readers will note that again there are complaints but still no proof of anything different from what is known put forward. We are talking about an event that happened right under the eyes of the public at large. Ordinary people board a plane in a civilian airport and it's path is tracked in the sky and approaching the Pentagon. It crashes. Many work on the clean up and identification of remains.

The so-called Official Story and the accounts of ordinary people involved conform. There's no room left for other interpretations. Trying to debate any data put forward by those reporting or commenting years later does not change the basic facts. Members of the public are available to provide first hand account for those who want it.

I wasn't there and no on one this thread was either. Accepting what so many unconnected people have corroborated with direct testimony is not a political act. It's just dealing with a reality, as unpleasant as it may be.

Many speculations have been put forward as to other events that might have occurred. They have not even come close to substantiation.

Arab hijackers murdered a couple hundred people and destroyed valuable property in this plane crash.

Why would anyone try to prove something different happened in this terrible crime when the facts are clear and undeniable? What sort of disinformation agenda wants to alter what we know about these terrible events? Who gains by wanting people to think America doesn't have lethal enemies? Why are they so persistent in pushing forward vague accusation without any evidence of such? Does some blind hatred of the US government move them to exonerate people who willfully harm innocent people?

There is far more going on here beyond requests to see pictures of dead passengers strapped into airplane seats. There are serious issues that will come back to haunt the people who try to portray themselves as defenders of a so-called Truth. But who aggressively attempt to spread false information at every opportunity. Something very unhealthy is going on here. Lies and denials should not be used to take the place of truth anywhere.


M

[edit on 1-10-2009 by mmiichael]

Casual readers will note that again there are complaints but still no proof of anything different from what is known put forward.

Um uh.....Maybe I am too casual because I am very unclear as to what exactly is "known." I know that you keep saying it and seem to even really think it but you have proven nothing, shown nothing, revealed nothing. Just what is KNOWN and you are going to have to demonstrate how you can claim it is "known." I am going back to being casual now.

Originally posted by mmiichael
Sort of like a scavenger, you try pick away at whatever someone says.

As opposed to the picking away at the things that no one says? You are a truly amazing creature. I would love to study the inner workings of this type of brain.

Originally posted by mmiichael
There is far more going on here beyond requests to see pictures of dead passengers strapped into airplane seats. There are serious issues that will come back to haunt the people who try to portray themselves as defenders of a so-called Truth. But who aggressively attempt to spread false information at every opportunity. Something very unhealthy is going on here. Lies and denials should not be used to take the place of truth anywhere.

mmiichael has summed up his activity in this thread, perfectly, using his own words in the above paragraph.

He has failed to substantiate his claims about the passenger bodies. He is deliberately spreading disinformation so that people might believe his claims.

This is a serious issue, as he's propogating something as being true, yet he can't prove it.

The media and the government have both helped to perpetuate some 9/11 myths and now mmiichael is doing the same thing with his unsubstantiated claims about the passenger bodies.

Originally posted by tezzajw
mmiichael has summed up his activity in this thread, perfectly, using his own words in the above paragraph.

He has failed to substantiate his claims about the passenger bodies. He is deliberately spreading disinformation so that people might believe his claims.

This is a serious issue, as he's propogating something as being true, yet he can't prove it.

The media and the government have both helped to perpetuate some 9/11 myths and now mmiichael is doing the same thing with his unsubstantiated claims about the passenger bodies.

People reading this thread can see for themselves. Names of organizations who dealt with passenger remains are there. Names of eyewitnesses are there.

Those questioning the reliability of this information can contact these people directly.

In 8 years nothing has presented to disprove what those people and other witnesses have confirmed.

People on this thread who feel they can avoid stating a contradictory theory by asking inane repeated questions for which answers are available again look foolish.

They skulk behind their computers deluding themselves that harbour some secret knowledge.

Well the secrets out. The know nothing and have nothing to offer. No string of requests for more proof or pronouncements can change that.

Ignorance wallows in it's own ignorance. Good examples are the tiresome repeated question asking trolls around here.


M

Originally posted by mmiichael
People reading this thread can see for themselves. Names of organizations who dealt with passenger remains are there. Names of eyewitnesses are there.

Where is your proof that:
1 - passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats.
2 - rear seated passenger bodies were found relatively intact.

???

mmiichael, you have not substantiated these two claims.

Your continual handwaving, deflecting, avoiding and dodging is not working. As the thread progresses it becomes even more clear to the casual readers and the neutral observers that you have not proven those two claims.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by mmiichael
People reading this thread can see for themselves. Names of organizations who dealt with passenger remains are there. Names of eyewitnesses are there.

Where is your proof that:
1 - passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats.
2 - rear seated passenger bodies were found relatively intact.

???

mmiichael, you have not substantiated these two claims.

Your continual handwaving, deflecting, avoiding and dodging is not working. As the thread progresses it becomes even more clear to the casual readers and the neutral observers that you have not proven those two claims.

Where's proof you're not a ridiculous troll?

The casual readers and the neutral observers have not seen anything from you except one lousy gimmick of flooding discussion with questions and accusations.

But providing no answers.

Don't think people reading this can't spot a troll.


M

Originally posted by mmiichael
Where's proof you're not a ridiculous troll?

mmiichael, that quote isn't helping your cause to prove your claims, namely:

1 - passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats.
2 - rear seated passenger bodies were found relatively intact.

Originally posted by mmiichael
But providing no answers.

Indeed, mmiichael, you're the one who has provided no answers and no proof to support your claims about the passenger bodies.

Click here to learn more about this warning.

Originally posted by mmiichael
You're blind, deaf and dumb. Guess you can't help it.

On the previous page, mmiichael called me 'chicken...t'.

At the top of this page, mmiichael called me 'tezzalini'.

Two posts ago, mmiichael called me a 'ridiculous troll'.

Now, mmiichael is calling me 'blind', 'deaf' and 'dumb'.

Casual readers, how many more insults will mmiichael hurl at me in his attempt to avoid proving his two claims:

1 - passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats.
2 - rear seated passenger bodies were found relatively intact.

mmiichael has previously been warned by the Moderators for his poor quality posts in the 9/11 forum. I have no doubt that if he continues to breach the ATS ettiquete guidlines, he'll earn another warning.

Is it really that difficult for mmiichael to prove his claims? He could have ended all of this trouble for himself, over ten pages ago, if he simply proved his claims for us.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by tezzajw]

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by mmiichael
You're blind, deaf and dumb. Guess you can't help it.

On the previous page, mmiichael called me 'chicken...t'.

At the top of this page, mmiichael called me 'tezzalini'.

Two posts ago, mmiichael called me a 'ridiculous troll'.

Now, mmiichael is calling me 'blind', 'deaf' and 'dumb'.

Casual readers, how many more insults will mmiichael hurl at me in his attempt to avoid proving his two claims:

1 - passenger bodies were found strapped to airline seats.
2 - rear seated passenger bodies were found relatively intact.

mmiichael has previously been warned by the Moderators for his poor quality posts in the 9/11 forum. I have no doubt that if he continues to breach the ATS ettiquete guidlines, he'll earn another warning.

Is it really that difficult for mmiichael to prove his claims? He could have ended all of this trouble for himself, over ten pages ago, if he simply proved his claims for us.

Does anyone with any self-resepect want to hear any more of this. Tracking and petty accusations on a lousy 9/11 thread. One of thousands similar threads and about the least interesting one I've seen. The smarter contributors are running to the exits. I'm outta here after this.

Please, report me to the moderators. Maybe you can get me banned. Get my ISP blocked. Go for it.

At least I won't have to read this gibberish any more. Life's too short.

Don't feed the trolls.


Mike

Originally posted by mmiichael
I'm outta here after this.

When you have hurled insults at me and failed to substantiate your two very specific claims about the passenger bodies, your best option is to leave the thread.

Now, the thread can continue without you spinning your unproven disinfo.

Thanks for your retreat. Perhaps I'll see you in another thread, if you happen to make a claim that you can't prove.