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Independent Investigation Into Pentagon Attack Yields Alarming Information

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posted on Sep, 15 2009 @ 08:58 PM
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reply to post by jthomas
 


I struggle to see how anyone can believe the OS of the Pentagon. Especially someone who is a member of ATS that has so much factual information at their fingertips.......

80+ security tapes have been confiscated by the FBI??!??

The footage that they released and claimed to show a 757 is very inconclusive.

There were TWO engines on the plane, why was only ONE found?

There should have been many more turbine disks as well as blade, vane and casing fragments.

There should have also been 9 more wheel hubs, more landing gear and heavy tungsten counterweight ballasts found.

Then there's the wing spars which are designed to take 2x the max gross weight of the aircraft and the huge vertical stabiliser-rudder.

Where did they all disappear to??? Why was the 'other' evidence whisked away without proper forensic examination, much like the steel in the towers???

Why was the Pentagon lawn covered in hundreds of cubic yards of gravel rock a few days after???

Why did the Bush admin refuse to release the black boxes, voice recorders or even pictures of any wreckage of flight 77???

Where is the evidence of bodies? They are just on paper, supposedly 177 or more bodies were identified, even though their are no eyewitness reports. Not to mention the fire was so hot it supposedly incinerated 100 tons of Aluminum and titanium steal alloy???!???

Why did Dick Cheney not evacuate the Pentagon?

Why did American Airlines state that flight 77 was NOT scheduled to fly on September the 11th, 2001???????

Why do you trust a government that has been proven to pathologically LIE?





posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by vehemes terra eternus
reply to post by jthomas
 


I struggle to see how anyone can believe the OS of the Pentagon. Especially someone who is a member of ATS that has so much factual information at their fingertips.......


This easier answer is that they don't really believe the OS and are just debating for some other reason...........

It is very difficult to believe a person who actually did research could believe the official story.

The more complex answer is that people are is a state of denial.

The idea that the official TV news would be misleading is a scary and disturbing thought to some people.

People have their preconceived notions and make assumptions based on speculation in order rationalize the evidence to fit what everyone else thinks.

The ironic thing is that people think that majority belief or "officialness" is actually evidence.

Just look at the pictures of the pentagon or shanksville...if someone didn't tell you would you have ever thought a plane might be involved?



[edit on 16-9-2009 by Jezus]



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by jthomas
As always, we know that CIT Groupie, SPreston, will never support his claims.


As always, we know that Disinfo Flunky Thomas will NEVER support his claims.

See how that works?


Do you know the purpose of the 9/11 "Truth" Movement?



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:04 PM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by K J Gunderson


Interesting. So you claim there were bodies and wreckage from the plane? /quote]

Try reading above carefully this time. You understand the Lilydale claimed there were no passenger bodies at the Pentagon but won't demonstrate how he/she knows that, or do you also need new eyeglasses?

Try again.



Try reading what I wrote carefully. I could really care less what Lilly claimed. You claimed there were bodies.

PROVE IT.


Show me.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus


You posted evidence in this thread?

Can you re-post it?

I can't find it...

So are my blinders tightened too much?


I've given you the source where you can begin. I'm still waiting for you to refute it.

But then you can't so you pretend I never gave you the source.

It's the nature of the beast.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:22 PM
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Originally posted by A Fortiori
reply to post by jthomas
 



In that case, you should quote me instead of quoting Lily, don't you think? You 9/11 "Truthers" are weird.

Go ahead, quote me.


I will.

Do you not find it all a bit hypocritical that you are calling the 9-11 "Truthers" weird for believing that the government is not as inept as they appear, thus giving them more credit than you seem to feel they deserve, and yet, you have spent multiple pages arguing with them over what you feel is essentially a non-issue?

It's rather like me arguing with a five year old over why I feel that Santa is slacking off in his duties.

If you feel that this was just a colossal blunder on the part of the government and that there is no "truth" why come on here and debate what you feel is a fallacy to begin with? Is that not "weird"? How many posts now to iterate and validate the accepted version? One would think, if it is the truth, then it could rest on its own merits.

You are as weird as all of the rest of us. When you realize that you will be much happier.


It's instructive how you must create a strawman rather than quote what I actually wrote.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by TheAntiHero420
Jthomas, just post the pics of the wings and all the stuff they found and all this could stop...


What are you talking about? It stopped the morning of 9/11/2001 when the wings were destroyed in the crash of AA77 into the Pentagon. There are no photos of AA77's "wings."

If you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by TheAntiHero420
Jthomas, just post the pics of the wings and all the stuff they found and all this could stop...


I would love pics but I would settle for anything. Any real explanation as to why they are not there, were not there, and were never recovered from there would suit me. Evidence of some kind would be spectacular. Photos would be gold!

Yeah tommy, just get this all over with or is 9/11 a game or a sport to you? Are you having fun at the expense of 3000 dead Americans?


Feel free to tell the families of the passengers and crew of AA77 that you have proof that their loved one's never died on 9/11 because AA77 never hit the Pentagon.

Then get back to us with their responses.

If you refuse to do that, then you owe them and me and apology for insulting us.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by vehemes terra eternus
reply to post by jthomas
 


I struggle to see how anyone can believe the OS of the Pentagon. Especially someone who is a member of ATS that has so much factual information at their fingertips.......

80+ security tapes have been confiscated by the FBI??!??

The footage that they released and claimed to show a 757 is very inconclusive.

There were TWO engines on the plane, why was only ONE found?

There should have been many more turbine disks as well as blade, vane and casing fragments.

There should have also been 9 more wheel hubs, more landing gear and heavy tungsten counterweight ballasts found.

Then there's the wing spars which are designed to take 2x the max gross weight of the aircraft and the huge vertical stabiliser-rudder.

Where did they all disappear to??? Why was the 'other' evidence whisked away without proper forensic examination, much like the steel in the towers???

Why was the Pentagon lawn covered in hundreds of cubic yards of gravel rock a few days after???

Why did the Bush admin refuse to release the black boxes, voice recorders or even pictures of any wreckage of flight 77???

Where is the evidence of bodies? They are just on paper, supposedly 177 or more bodies were identified, even though their are no eyewitness reports. Not to mention the fire was so hot it supposedly incinerated 100 tons of Aluminum and titanium steal alloy???!???

Why did Dick Cheney not evacuate the Pentagon?

Why did American Airlines state that flight 77 was NOT scheduled to fly on September the 11th, 2001???????

Why do you trust a government that has been proven to pathologically LIE?


Try to pay attention.

1. None of us, including you "Truthers", needs to rely on what the "government" says to know that AA77 crashed into the Pentagon. I keep reminding you all that your belief in the "official story" canard is what allows you "Truthers" to pretend there is NO evidence that informs us what happened, that it's all just a "government story" or some mystical "official story."

Why do you think when I give you all the source of where you can start looking at the evidence - and refute it - not one single one of you will do so.

Here it is yet again: wtc7lies.googlepages.com...

2. You have just repeated the same old questions without demonstrating that they have any validity. The fact that they have all been addressed up to 8 full years ago, and are based on faulty information or unsupported claims, is indicative of the myopia and craziness that infects conspiracy believers and 9/11 Deniers.

So, either do your homework or present valid sources for your claims and questions above and explain why we should believe what you have written above.

After all, YOU have to convince the world that you have valid evidence.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 01:52 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by vehemes terra eternus
reply to post by jthomas
 


I struggle to see how anyone can believe the OS of the Pentagon. Especially someone who is a member of ATS that has so much factual information at their fingertips.......


This easier answer is that they don't really believe the OS and are just debating for some other reason...........

It is very difficult to believe a person who actually did research could believe the official story.

The more complex answer is that people are is a state of denial.

The idea that the official TV news would be misleading is a scary and disturbing thought to some people.

People have their preconceived notions and make assumptions based on speculation in order rationalize the evidence to fit what everyone else thinks.

The ironic thing is that people think that majority belief or "officialness" is actually evidence.

Just look at the pictures of the pentagon or shanksville...if someone didn't tell you would you have ever thought a plane might be involved?


Boy, who told you all that nonsense? You certainly illustrate why 9/11 "Truthers" are the "one TRUE believers."




posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:01 PM
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Well Jthomas, you admit you have no evidence to prove us wrong. Yet, you assume that you don't need to back your claims. Surely there is an official list of stuff collected at the scene, allong with photos of the debris collected. That would be step one in a crime scene investigation.

And don't write some BS about how it wasn't a crime scene, because at this point it should have been since no one and taken the credit yet.

[edit on 9/16/2009 by TheAntiHero420]



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by jthomas
 



Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by TheAntiHero420
Jthomas, just post the pics of the wings and all the stuff they found and all this could stop...


I would love pics but I would settle for anything. Any real explanation as to why they are not there, were not there, and were never recovered from there would suit me. Evidence of some kind would be spectacular. Photos would be gold!

Yeah tommy, just get this all over with or is 9/11 a game or a sport to you? Are you having fun at the expense of 3000 dead Americans?


Feel free to tell the families of the passengers and crew of AA77 that you have proof that their loved one's never died on 9/11 because AA77 never hit the Pentagon.


AA 77 not crashing into the pentagon doesn't mean that those who were allegedly on the pentagon didn't die. On the other hand, it doesn't mean they're necessarily still alive either. But we don't need to know these things in order to realize that the official story is full of credibility gaps, such as all those north of the citgo gas station witnesses, what happens to DNA when exposed to heat and even a downright impossibility, such as the impossible dive the plane would have had to have made, as explained by Pilots for 9/11 Truth.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by scott3x]



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:17 PM
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Originally posted by TheAntiHero420
Well Jthomas, you admit you have no evidence to prove us wrong. Yet, you assume that you don't need to back your claims. Surely there is an official list of stuff collected at the scene, allong with photos of the debris collected. That would be step one in a crime scene investigation.

And don't write some BS about how it wasn't a crime scene, because at this point it should have been since no one and taken the credit yet.

[edit on 9/16/2009 by TheAntiHero420]


Boy, you can't stop with the strawman arguments.

Try again: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Get back to us when you decide to be intellectually honest.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by scott3x
reply to post by jthomas
 



Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by Lillydale

Originally posted by TheAntiHero420
Jthomas, just post the pics of the wings and all the stuff they found and all this could stop...


I would love pics but I would settle for anything. Any real explanation as to why they are not there, were not there, and were never recovered from there would suit me. Evidence of some kind would be spectacular. Photos would be gold!

Yeah tommy, just get this all over with or is 9/11 a game or a sport to you? Are you having fun at the expense of 3000 dead Americans?


Feel free to tell the families of the passengers and crew of AA77 that you have proof that their loved one's never died on 9/11 because AA77 never hit the Pentagon.


AA 77 not crashing into the pentagon doesn't mean that those who were allegedly on the pentagon didn't die. On the other hand, it doesn't mean they're necessarily still alive either. But we don't need to know these things in order to realize that the official story is full of credibility gaps, such as all those north of the citgo gas station witnesses, what happens to DNA when exposed to heat and even a downright impossibility, such as the impossible dive the plane would have had to have made, as explained by Pilots for 9/11 Truth.

[edit on 16-9-2009 by scott3x]


1. There are NO NOC witnesses who ever saw a flyover, which is what CIT claims "must have happen. There is NO credible positive evidence that AA77 flew any such NOC flight path.

2. There is NO impossible dive ever demonstrated factually. It is simply a claim based of P4T's faulty calculations arrived discussed extensively and debunked on JREF 9/11 Conspiracy Forum and elsewhere.

3. Bodies routinely survive burning completely in plane crashes and house fires. DNA easily survives. No one has demonstrated otherwise.

4. The "official story" canard is all it is. It is the evidence that counts and you have already misstated it 3 times above.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by TheAntiHero420
Well Jthomas, you admit you have no evidence to prove us wrong. Yet, you assume that you don't need to back your claims. Surely there is an official list of stuff collected at the scene, allong with photos of the debris collected. That would be step one in a crime scene investigation.

And don't write some BS about how it wasn't a crime scene, because at this point it should have been since no one and taken the credit yet.

[edit on 9/16/2009 by TheAntiHero420]


Boy, you can't stop with the strawman arguments.

Try again: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Get back to us when you decide to be intellectually honest.


Don't call me boy, do not speak down to me. Do however show respect for your fellow country men and women. Why don't you go and take some soma, so you can live blissfully unaware. I was being honest, you have shown us basically nothing except for denial.



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by jthomas
 



Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by scott3x
AA 77 not crashing into the pentagon doesn't mean that those who were allegedly on the pentagon didn't die. On the other hand, it doesn't mean they're necessarily still alive either. But we don't need to know these things in order to realize that the official story is full of credibility gaps, such as all those north of the citgo gas station witnesses, what happens to DNA when exposed to heat and even a downright impossibility, such as the impossible dive the plane would have had to have made, as explained by Pilots for 9/11 Truth.


1. There are NO NOC witnesses who ever saw a flyover, which is what CIT claims "must have happen.


It has been suggested that many were blinded by the explosion. There were also some initial reports that atleast some witnesses -did- believe that the plane kept on going; however, as far as I know, their names were never recorded. There is also atleast 1 witness on record who saw a plane fly over the pentagon just after the explosion; given the fact that no other plane was that close to the pentagon, the logical conclusion is that it was the same plane. Apparently it was even banking the same way it had been before it began its flyover.



Originally posted by jthomas
There is NO credible positive evidence that AA77 flew any such NOC flight path.


You are mistaken. CIT videotaped about 20 NOC flight path witnesses; their estimated flight paths corroborate each other fairly well.



Originally posted by jthomas
2. There is NO impossible dive ever demonstrated factually. It is simply a claim based of P4T's faulty calculations arrived discussed extensively and debunked on JREF 9/11 Conspiracy Forum and elsewhere.


You're right, there was no impossible dive, my mistake. What was impossible is the assertion that the plane could have pulled -out- of the official story dive to then straighten out and fly low and level to hit first the light poles and then the pentagon itself.



Originally posted by jthomas
3. Bodies routinely survive burning completely in plane crashes and house fires.


Agreed; and yet there is no evidence, other then the alleged DNA, that any of the alleged passengers on board AA 77 were ever recovered from the pentagon.



Originally posted by jthomas
DNA easily survives. No one has demonstrated otherwise.


From a post at Pilots for 9/11 Truth:

"Sometimes, the nuclear DNA present in samples is destroyed by environmental conditions (e.g. heat and moisture). Because there are many more copies of mitochondrial DNA than nuclear DNA in a cell, enough mitochondrial DNA may remain for analysis, even though the nuclear DNA has been destroyed. Mitochondrial DNA analysis was critical in the identification of human remains from the World Trade Center tragedy on September 11, 2001."

www.hitdna.com...

Are we to believe that heat that effectively vaporized an aluminum, steel, and titanium Boeing 757 airframe and impact that pentrated into the middle brick/mortar "C-ring" wall will leave enough mitochondrial DNA intact to conclusively identify the number of AA77 victims claimed?



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by GenRadek
You crow and crow about how jthomas cant provide you pictures of passengers strapped to chairs in the debris, which was confirmed by two sources, who WERE there

I couldn't let this gem go without another comment about it.

Casual readers, welcome to a lesson in Logic 101 and witness how GenRadek failed it.


GenRadek's Logic:
Two sources claimed to have seen unidentified passenger bodies strapped to seats, therefore it must be true.
A dozen independent sources, videotaped on location, saw a plane approach North of Citgo, therefore it must be false.


GenRadek, you can take as many years as you like to combine your efforts with mmiichael and jthomas. I'll be waiting around for any of you to prove which passenger bodies were found strapped to the airline seats inside the Pentagon. Get cracking boys, you've failed so far and you've got a mammoth task ahead.

[edit on 12-9-2009 by tezzajw]




Ah yes tezz, and nearly 200 eyewitnesses see the plane crash into the Pentagon, including the handpicked "stars" for CIT, all confirm it slammed into the Pentagon. But to you and CIT it must be false. A "dozen" sources claim NoC flightpaths, (even though its obviously incorrect or edited to appear in that manner), and they trump the 200 that witnessed the impact. OH and ZERO for magic flyover.

Well tezz, you can also take years to combine your efforts with CIT and SPreston. I'll still be waiting around, waiting for ANY eyewitnesses to any magic flyovers that HAD to happen to make the "dozen" cherrypicked witnesses to the alleged NoC fit with the claim. You've had since 2003 to make it work, so get cracking! You boys STILL have a mammoth task ahead. Good luck!



posted on Sep, 16 2009 @ 09:14 PM
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Originally posted by jthomas

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by vehemes terra eternus
reply to post by jthomas
 


I struggle to see how anyone can believe the OS of the Pentagon. Especially someone who is a member of ATS that has so much factual information at their fingertips.......


This easier answer is that they don't really believe the OS and are just debating for some other reason...........

It is very difficult to believe a person who actually did research could believe the official story.

The more complex answer is that people are is a state of denial.

The idea that the official TV news would be misleading is a scary and disturbing thought to some people.

People have their preconceived notions and make assumptions based on speculation in order rationalize the evidence to fit what everyone else thinks.

The ironic thing is that people think that majority belief or "officialness" is actually evidence.

Just look at the pictures of the pentagon or shanksville...if someone didn't tell you would you have ever thought a plane might be involved?


Boy, who told you all that nonsense? You certainly illustrate why 9/11 "Truthers" are the "one TRUE believers."



Where did I get it?

I got it from you.

You repeat the same two points OVER and OVER again...

1. The majority believe the official story!

Argumentum ad populum

"If many believe so, it is so."

en.wikipedia.org...


2. You can't prove I have no evidence!

Negative Proof

"X is true because there is no proof that X is false."

en.wikipedia.org...

---

"Everyone I know says a Unicorn was at the pentagon!'

"You can't prove a Unicorn wasn't at the pentagon!"

"You're so silly for not knowing that everyone knows how much evidence there was that a Unicorn was at the pentagon!!"

"Photos?! Videos!? Eyewitnesses?!?!?!!??! I don't need that stuff...everyone already KNOWS a Unicorn was at the pentagon!"



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 04:29 AM
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Originally posted by GenRadek
Ah yes tezz, and nearly 200 eyewitnesses see the plane crash into the Pentagon, including the handpicked "stars" for CIT, all confirm it slammed into the Pentagon. But to you and CIT it must be false.

Casual readers to the thread will note that despite being told many times in other threads, GenRadek's inability to cope with reality has again been revealed.

Please, for the sake of us all on ATS, quote me where I stated that there definitely was a fly-over, GenRadek.

I've schooled you many times in other threads, where you tried to attribute the same belief to all 'truthers' regardless of what they actually state about their beliefs.

Your extremely poor logic is noted, GenRadek. You better get cracking looking for that magical quote, or retract your false claim about me.



posted on Sep, 17 2009 @ 07:18 AM
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reply to post by tezzajw
 


Actually, Gen Radek didn't say you were a flyover buff. He said that you thought that the plane impact was false. CIT also believes this but has an alternate theory. What is your theory?



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