Independent Investigation Into Pentagon Attack Yields Alarming Information

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

You said that respondent conditioning involves NLP. You said that it was used to persuade all eyewitnesses who saw a plane crash that the plane had crashed. Therefore NLP was used on every one of those eyewitnesses.

Look, obviously you're talking complete nonsense, but I'm just trying to show you how ridiculous your argument is by indulging it. Anyone with a scrap of common sense would look at the mass of physical data and make the conclusion that a plane struck the Pentagon. You choose to fiddle around with undergrad logic and semantics instead because it allows you to maintain your fantasy.

1 + 1 = 2 is a fact.

Respondent conditioning during 9-11 is a fact.

You keep saying it. That doesn't make it so. The analogy absolutely stands - you can keep writing that 1+1=3, but no one of any note will believe you.

This is pretty much the crux of this increasingly outrageous thread.

The way I'd reduce it further is that someone is arguing "CIT witnesses say 1 + 1 = 3. So we have to ignore all conflicting testimony and a hundred tons of wreckage, identified dead bodies, all common wisdom, logic, mathematics, the laws of physics."

This gets into territory where we are arguing with people about their delusions.


[edit on 1-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
This gets into territory where we are arguing with people about their delusions.

mmiichael, you have not yet supported your claim that hundreds of people saw Flight 77 flying low around the Pentagon and knocking down light poles.

This appears to be a case of where your delusion is trying to be passed off as fact.

Why won't you provide the list of the hundreds of witnesses from your claim?

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by mmiichael
This gets into territory where we are arguing with people about their delusions.

mmiichael, you have not yet supported your claim that hundreds of people saw Flight 77 flying low around the Pentagon and knocking down light poles.

This appears to be a case of where your delusion is trying to be passed off as fact.

Why won't you provide the list of the hundreds of witnesses from your claim?

My claim is supported by all the people who saw Flight AA77 fly into the Pentagon. By all the hard data from tracking equipment. By all the people involved in the clean up of the wreckage. By the DNA confirmed as being from the passengers and crew. Inherently by the lack of a shred of conflicting evidence to the contrary in over 8 years.

The names and organizations where people can be contacted, where data can be found, have been presented or linked to a dozen times on this thread.

The refusal of the fantasy flyover believers to ever look at any of this fully corroborated evidence confirms what most people know already. The government faked crash theory is just a lunatic notion that no self-aware person would believe.

The desperation of some to try and find inconsistencies - not in the hard data - but what people on an discussion form have remarked - pretty much confirms the fantasy flyover theorists also realize they have nothing except some lame confused videotaped testimonies assembled by a couple of whackos who are dismissed even by hardcore Truthers.

Originally posted by tezzajw


Why won't you provide the list of the hundreds of witnesses from your claim?

Hundreds saw the plane (the freeway that fronts the pentagon is a heavily traveled freeway), only a few were interviewed by the media and the investigators, so on record, there are nearly 80 witnesses who saw the plane hit the pentagon.

Start here:
www.debunk911myths.org...

however, you still have to come to explain these:
the physical evidence
the DNA evidence
the FDR data

all prove that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon


Eyewitnesses are supplementary to the above. Even if NO one saw the plane, the physical evidence proves that flight 77 hit the pentagon.

Originally posted by RipCurl
Hundreds saw the plane (the freeway that fronts the pentagon is a heavily traveled freeway), only a few were interviewed by the media and the investigators, so on record, there are nearly 80 witnesses who saw the plane hit the pentagon.

however, you still have to come to explain these:
the physical evidence
the DNA evidence
the FDR data

all prove that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon

Eyewitnesses are supplementary to the above. Even if NO one saw the plane, the physical evidence proves that flight 77 hit the pentagon.

Given the population intensity of Washington/Arlington, high rises, it being broad daylight and everyone oh high alert with news reports of the WTC crashes, probably quite a few thousand people watched Flight AA77 hitting or at least approaching the Pentagon.

Had there been anything other than what was reported taking place - the papers, radio, TV, the internet would have been swamped with contradicting reports within 24 hours.

8 years and 4 months later no news reports of a flying over plane, crews downing light poles, fake plane wreckage being transported, etc.

Originally posted by mmiichael
My claim is supported by all the people who saw Flight AA77 fly into the Pentagon.

No, it's not. You're not even sure about your own claim.

To refute the OP's presentation, you claimed that hundreds of people saw Flight 77 flying low around the Pentagon and knocking down light poles.

You have not supplied the hundreds of names who saw this happen.

Why do you avoid proving your claim?

When will you retract the claim that you have not proven?

Originally posted by RipCurl
Hundreds saw the plane (the freeway that fronts the pentagon is a heavily traveled freeway), only a few were interviewed by the media and the investigators, so on record, there are nearly 80 witnesses who saw the plane hit the pentagon.

So? 80 witnesses is not nearly as many as the 'hundreds' that mmiichael claimed saw Flight 77 flying low and knocking down light poles.

Maybe you should read the thread and try to keep up with the argument that you're trying to defend. It would help eliminate the pointless posts that offer nothing but handwaving and avoidance.

Originally posted by mmiichael
Given the population intensity of Washington/Arlington, high rises, it being broad daylight and everyone oh high alert with news reports of the WTC crashes, probably quite a few thousand people watched Flight AA77 hitting or at least approaching the Pentagon.

mmiicheal, why do you state this?

You have avoided and refused to post the names of the 'hundreds' of witnesses who you claimed saw Flight 77 flying low and knocking over light poles.

Why do you then inflate your unproven claims to state that 'a few thousand' would have seen the plane?

How can you expect any of your inflated claims to be believed, when you can't supply the required evidence?

Please, supply a list of the few thousand names of people who saw what you described. Supply the list of he hundreds of people who saw what you described. By default, you can not be taken seriously, when you make claims that you are not prepared to prove.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Please, supply a list of the few thousand names of people who saw what you described. Supply the list of he hundreds of people who saw what you described. By default, you can not be taken seriously, when you make claims that you are not prepared to prove.

This has bee addressed many times before. The sources are there for those who sincerely want the information.

Please stop pretending you have any authority here or that you don't understand what is going on. The Truther ploy of "you haven't supplied some requested evidence... so some alternate claimed theorized nonsense must be true" doesn't work among intelligent people.

You just avoid the contact sources that will put a lie to the foolish claims that were made in the OP. The so-called "Alarming Evidence" from the so-called "Independent Investigation"

Please supply a shred of tangible evidence there was a flyover. That the 50 tons of plane debris were deposited. That DNA testing was faked. That hundreds of people involved in the clean up are providing false witness.




[edit on 2-1-2010 by mmiichael]

Originally posted by mmiichael
This has bee addressed many times before. The sources are there for those who sincerely want the information.

No, mmiichael - you have not addressed this before.

You have failed to show the thread a list of witness names and statements.

Why would you make the claim that hundreds of people saw Flight 77 flying low and knocking down light poles if you knew that you were not going to support it?

Originally posted by tezzajw
You have failed to show the thread a list of witness names and statements.

Why would you make the claim that hundreds of people saw Flight 77 flying low and knocking down light poles if you knew that you were not going to support it?

No Tezza**** you are the one his has failed - and miserably.

Who witnessed the Pentagon crash has been addressed innumerable times. Many of their names and excerpted testimony has been provided. Links to sources has been provided.

Repeatedly typing how I and others have failed to provide things, solely by your requirements, does not constitute success on your part.

It only emphasizes your own failures to absorb data and incorporate information provided.

I won't bother to enumerate the many questions asked of you that have been ignored. I won't used the word fail. Just incapable.

Originally posted by mmiichael
Who witnessed the Pentagon crash has been addressed innumerable times. Many of their names and excerpted testimony has been provided. Links to sources has been provided.

mmiichael, your claim was that hundreds of witnesses saw Flight 77 flying low around the Pentagon and knocking down light poles.

You have failed to supply the list of witnesses and their statements. You have made every attempt to try and spin your way out of your responsibility to do so. No excuses will work, mmiichael.

Why can't you list the hundreds of witnesses who saw Flight 77 flying low and knocking down light poles? Your failure to do so should be an indication that perhaps you need to retract the claim that you have not been able to prove.

Casual readers to this thread need to be informed that your claim can not be taken as anything more than your spurious, inflationary, imaginary evidence.

When you wish for your claims to be taken seriously, please return to the thread and prove them.

Originally posted by tezzajw
Casual readers to this thread need to be informed that your claim can not be taken as anything more than your spurious, inflationary, imaginary evidence.

When you wish for your claims to be taken seriously, please return to the thread and prove them.

Can you actually think anyone reading this thread is interested in your pronouncements?

You failed to reconcile all the evidence and testimony provided or linked to - acting as if it doesn't exist.

Where is your list of people who saw a flyover - a theory which you have supported.

Originally posted by mmiichael
Where is your list of people who saw a flyover - a theory which you have supported.

mmiichael... I have stepped through this very slowly with others in this thread. Obviously, you have must have not read the thread propoerly, plain forgotten, or you have some other memory problems where you ignore what is recorded on the screen.

Please, quote me where I stated that there was a fly over. Your failure to do this will be your admission that you have made a false claim against me. I don't expect that you will be civil enough to admit that your claim is false, nor do I expect you to apologise. Your failure to quote me will be your own undoing.

Making false claims against me is not going to save you from making claims that you have not proven.

You made a specific claim that hundreds of people saw Flight 77 flying low around the Pentagon and knocking down light poles. You have failed to prove this claim. Why do you refuse to prove your own claim?

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by mmiichael
Where is your list of people who saw a flyover - a theory which you have supported.

mmiichael... I have stepped through this very slowly with others in this thread. Obviously, you have must have not read the thread propoerly, plain forgotten, or you have some other memory problems where you ignore what is recorded on the screen.

Please, quote me where I stated that there was a fly over. Your failure to do this will be your admission that you have made a false claim against me. I don't expect that you will be civil enough to admit that your claim is false, nor do I expect you to apologise. Your failure to quote me will be your own undoing.

Making false claims against me is not going to save you from making claims that you have not proven.

You made a specific claim that hundreds of people saw Flight 77 flying low around the Pentagon and knocking down light poles. You have failed to prove this claim. Why do you refuse to prove your own claim?

You attempt to twist what others post here to your advantage in a game you are only playing with yourself. No one can fail a test when there is no test - except in your imagination.

This thread is about some false information termed "Alarming Evidence" which supposedly shows Flight AA77 did not crash into the Pentagon.
Instead there was some sort of flyover and the faking of a crash by government agents.

Nothing convincing has been presented to substantiate this claim.

Nothing convincing has been presented that disproves any of the tangible evidence of this crash and identification of passenger DNA.

Originally posted by mmiichael
You attempt to twist what others post here to your advantage in a game you are only playing with yourself. No one can fail a test when there is no test - except in your imagination.

No, that's not the case, mmiichael.

I have directly quoted your claims, as you typed them - no twisting by me at all. Remember that you retracted a few of your claims and admitted that you lied about them much earlier in this thread.

You have still not proven or retracted your claim that hundreds of people saw Flight 77 flying low around the Pentagon and knocking down light poles. Why will you not do this? Why do you keep avoiding and handwaving away your responsibility to honour your claim?

Originally posted by mmiichael
So that's your theory at last. Some bizarro notion that a 90 ton plane crashing can be faked to fool all those professionals and basically intelligent people.

Do you read context? This is most certainly NOT my theory and if you could read, you would see that.

You go on to talk about the flyover again, WHICH I ALSO NEVER ONCE ENDORSED. Seriously, if you cannot offer a legitimate argument to any of the real questions about 9/11, then why bother? You obviously ignored my post, jumped on a clearly defined fake quote, attributed it to my way of thinking and then made up a bunch of stuff to try and make it look like I said it. I said nothing here you actually responded to. Can you argue the facts or just attack me in any way shape or form, no matter how desperate you look by pretending you cannot read the sentences surrounding the ones you like.

reply to post by tezzajw


And tezz, you have yet to prove that Flight77 did a magic flyover of the Pentagon, or better yet, explain how and when the special MIB managed to fake the light poles, aircraft debris, fires, eyewitness accounts, radar data, etc etc etc. Or are you just going to handwave this away and continue to press on such insignifacnt details such as the lightpoles being knocked over in some special hope that somehow, this insignifcant detail will unravel the entire Pentagon attack? because tezz, this is getting pretty old and its getting tiring. I think this is starting into trolling territory, because you have not once offered A SINGLE coherent explanation or youre own version of events that would cover the above mentioned facts on debris, eyewitness accounts (etc etc etc). All you do is hammer away at the eyewitness accounts about the lightpoles being knocked over by the aircraft, as if THIS will be the Achillie's Heal to the "official story". If thats not desperation, I dont know what is.

ATS member CatHerder did a thorough investigation and analysis of the Pentagon crash and in 2004 posted his findings here

www.abovetopsecret.com...

He put up some eyewitness testimonies to the crash that are not commonly referenced and mentions the many other witnesses

"That's just a small smattering of people who have gone on record as seeing the plane, and the plane hit the Pentagon. [...] There are most likely twenty times more that either haven't been publicly recorded as seeing the crash, or simply don't want the attention."

For brevity some eyewitness reports and his conclusions here.

Essential reading for those who try to live in denial of the plane crash into the Pentagon.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"

- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001


"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."

- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002


"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"

- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001


Dan Creed said. He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up”

– Ahwatukee Foothill News


– Gary Bauer former Presidential candidate, "I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn’t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment."

Massachusetts News


"The only way you could tell that an aircraft was inside was that we saw pieces of the nose gear. The devastation was horrific. It was obvious that some of the victims we found had no time to react. The distance the firefighters had to travel down corridors to reach the fires was a problem. With only a good 25 minutes of air in their SCBA bottles, to save air they left off their face pieces as they walked and took in a lot of smoke," Captain Defina said. Captain Defina was the shift commander [of an aircraft rescue firefighters crew.]

– NFPA Journal November 1, 2001


That's just a small smattering of people who have gone on record as seeing the plane, and the plane hit the Pentagon. I could have included the dozens of people who saw the plane, but didn't see it hit (because it went behind a bridge, a hill, or some trees), but I choose only to post the ones that sounded the most valid and actually saw the plane hit the building. (I included the one fire chief who states he saw some plane wreckage during firefighting/rescue attempts.) There are most likely twenty times more that either haven't been publicly recorded as seeing the crash, or simply don't want the attention. You can't honestly sit there and deny the witnesses, the photographs, the facts, the science, and the reality that there was a terrorist attack on the Pentagon if you look at everything available and not one single tidbit of information at a time.


Conclusion
–
I highly doubt that local firefighters would be involved in any sort of a coverup. I highly doubt that local police officers would be involved in any sort of a government cover up. Cops and firemen are just average Joes like you and me, who go home to the wife and kids, and just try to make a living and have a good life for their families (I have many friends in both professions - of course the firemen are usually more stable marriage-wise because of their job but that doesn't make the cops any less human than you or I).

The men and women who pulled over a hundred people (dead and alive) out of that building would more likely than not have noticed somebody carrying over 60 bodies into the middle of the fire they were fighting. To say that the plane that hit the Pentagon was not filled with every single person who died in this terrorist attack (not counting the unfortunate people inside the building) is one thing and one thing only - ignorant.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael


MM, are you trolling or really interested? If you were really reading, this list of 'witnesses' has been tossed into every 9/11 thread I have read so far, and sometimes more than a few times. By your own admission, this is already 6 year old information. That would be fine if it were not already being supplied over and over and over. People heard things and saw things but not one person can say they know for a fact they saw AA77 crash into the Pentagon. How many claim to have even actually seen any plane crash and not just what they expected to be a crash? 2? How many witnesses do you have left when you stop cherry picking, put them all in the mix and then cross out the ones that all negate each other? The only thing publishing that short sample proves is that SOME people are believable and even out of them, only SOME of the things they claim to have witnessed is worth cutting and pasting.