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Independent Investigation Into Pentagon Attack Yields Alarming Information

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posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 04:15 PM
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reply to post by Pilgrum
 


Pilgrum, as I told weedwacker in the FDR thread, I don't believe I'm qualified to follow the arguments of either the official story side, or Pilots for 9/11 Truth here. With this, I'm bowing out of these points for now. Hopefully someone else will be able to pick up the points you've raised.




posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by scott3x
 


It just seems a very shaky basis to be blindly dedicating yourself to any theory, 'official' or not. But that's your decision I guess.



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by scott3x
 


Scott,
Are you in high school yet? Maybe you should wait before trying to understand some of ths stuff.
Weed has told you that turning a plane around at a few hundred feet up and going at 400 kts takes more time, distance, and altitude than you [or pft, apparently] think. Weed has also said that the lack of communications with the DCA tower means that there were no airplanes to talk to and any landing would have resulted in something. No talk, no radar contacts, no planes.
CIT said that a NOC flight path prevented the plane from turning to hit the impact zone and the limitations were altitude and g-forces. It can't fly over the top of the impact point and has to fly to the left of the impact zone. The links to the low observables didn't work at all. That whole suggestion is an act of desperation. Invisiplanes and hush a boom explosives fit right in with Judy Woods death rays from space. The military transport watching would have been too far away to be blinded by the explosion and would have seen the aircraft flying away.
Here is the story on CIT. They found a few people who thought that they saw a different flight path. None had laser rangefinders or alidades and told what they thought they saw. CIT then made up a nice story without thinking past the part where the plane flies over and the explosives go off. They had a few iterations of this and greatly confused themselves. When they came up with this gem, they hadn't figured out how to explain some important points: Not everyone would be blinded by the flash. Where the fuel inside the building came from. How were parts planted inside in the fire zones? How did people carry smashed engines and put them in the wreckage? Every time CIT gets into a spot, they come up with something out of their...favorite sci-fi flicks. Now, it's the invisiplane. Each time these guys make something up their story becomes more unbelieveable. I asked before and I'll ask again, "Why not just run a plane into the Pentagon?" This is much easier to do than what CIT claims.



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Lillydale
 


All of the answers you seek are there, young Padawan.


Apparently all except for the only one I asked for. You still have no clue how to just say "yes" or "no" and you get stars for that? Amazing!


It has been my pleasure to service you.


I think your star wars fantasy has gone to places it need not go here.


The ability to improve others' comprehension is not within my realm of expertise, I fear. Perhaps a re-reading, while in a nice warm soaking tub or other relaxing environment will be useful.

(Print out, do NOT take the computer with you into the tub).

This recommendation brought to you by the kind folks at "Rub-a-Dub Tubs".


What lovely sexist condescension. Amazing how I have asked 6 times for a simple yes or a no and you cannot do that but you will take the time be an ass.

I am not sure how you can even begin to question my reading comprehension when you cannot answer a simple question. There is a reason I specifically asked for a yes or a no. That is all I wanted. It is a yes or no question after all. It is a simple yes or no question that should be simple to answer if you have all of the information you keep rambling on about.

Somehow, you still cannot just answer "yes" or "no." Those are the only two words I asked you to pick from and I thought that might make it easier for you. You have not been able to do it but you have wasted time insulting me and now being a condescending jerk and little else. You have the nerve to question my reading comprehension? How many times do I need to ask the same question before you actually answer it? 7? Is there something wrong with the way I am writing it? If your reading comprehension is just fine then I must be asking incorrectly. Help me out here. Help me get to that yes or no.


Their motto? "You slip, we flip." No one has ever understood what that is supposed to mean, exactly...but there's strong evidence it refers to their law team....


Well, I think I can just let that nonsense stand on its own. 6 times I have asked you to just say "yes" or "no" and although you cannot seem to manage that, you can give me this crap. Clap clap clap.



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 08:18 PM
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Seeing the discussion on this thread just about reduces my compassion for the ignorant to zero. The argument always goes "they believe these foolish things because no one ever told them better."

Now is there anything farther from the truth that anyone could believe than "A plane didn't ht the Pentagon - it was faked."

Like is it really possible to fake 100 tons of destroyed airliner and dead people - in 5 minutes. What happened at the West side of the Pentagon between 9:35 AM and 9:40 that morning?

So we sit at our computers seeing people defend a bad SF movie scenario cooked by some cheap con artists with videocams who like to push around ordinary people who happened to be around the Pentagon that day.

People with knowledge try to inform the misinformed. IT doesn't work.

After 100 pages later of all this. seeing how pathetic the CIT theory really is with testimony that would stand up in Somalian traffic court I wish I'd just sent one message instead of trying to inform the willfully informed.

In light of what was seen, all the evidence, everything that is known, the whole 'flyover' theory is just idiotic. And you can figure out what kind of people swallow it.



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 08:35 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael

Seeing the discussion on this thread just about reduces my compassion for the ignorant to zero. The argument always goes "they believe these foolish things because no one ever told them better."


Yeah but that is the OSers for you.


Like is it really possible to fake 100 tons of destroyed airliner and dead people - in 5 minutes. What happened at the West side of the Pentagon between 9:35 AM and 9:40 that morning?


Wow! They recovered all the plane wreckage and human remains in 5 minutes? Can you please provide some sort of backup for this? I am pretty sure it took longer than five minutes for recovery crews to do their jobs. In fact, it took as long as it would take to plant evidence but I will wait for your evidence that it all took place within 5 minutes.



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Like is it really possible to fake 100 tons of destroyed airliner and dead people - in 5 minutes. What happened at the West side of the Pentagon between 9:35 AM and 9:40 that morning?


Wow! They recovered all the plane wreckage and human remains in 5 minutes? Can you please provide some sort of backup for this? I am pretty sure it took longer than five minutes for recovery crews to do their jobs. In fact, it took as long as it would take to plant evidence but I will wait for your evidence that it all took place within 5 minutes.



I recommend a good reading comprehension course. Check with your local school board.



posted on Dec, 17 2009 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael
I recommend a good reading comprehension course. Check with your local school board.


Instead of just being rude, how about you explain to me what it is that I missed. I am simply responding to exactly what you stated. If I read something wrong, please show everyone how stupid I am and point it out.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 09:29 AM
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reply to post by K J Gunderson
 




Perhaps I can clear it up for you, mmicheal has gone away for the moment.

This was easy enough for me to comprehend, and I'll see if you agree.

mmichael said:

Originally posted by mmichael
Like is it really possible to fake 100 tons of destroyed airliner and dead people - in 5 minutes.


See it yet?

Reminding you of the question asked:


Originally posted by K J Gunderson
Wow! They recovered all the plane wreckage and human remains in 5 minutes? Can you please provide some sort of backup for this?



See it yet?

If not, then here's my take:

mmichael was simply showing how ridiculous it is to imagine that the entire scene at the Pentagon was somehow "staged". In the span of only about 5 minutes. See?

This is just one of the major flaws in the CIT 'hypothesis' (because it doesn't even meet standards as theory, at all).

ALL of their claims fall apart upon reflection of this logical fallacy. There are other, many many other reasons, but for now this is good enough.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker

See it yet?

If not, then here's my take:

mmichael was simply showing how ridiculous it is to imagine that the entire scene at the Pentagon was somehow "staged". In the span of only about 5 minutes. See?

This is just one of the major flaws in the CIT 'hypothesis' (because it doesn't even meet standards as theory, at all).

ALL of their claims fall apart upon reflection of this logical fallacy. There are other, many many other reasons, but for now this is good enough.



No, wait...slow down. You amaze me sometimes.

Let me see if I can explain this to you using simple words. There is no need to stage a scene within 5 minutes. He claims that they must have set up all the things recovered in 5 minutes. Was it all found and recovered in 5 minutes? NO. How the hell can you decide it had to be staged within 5 minutes if the scene took far longer than that to investigate.

Let me try it this way. They 'found' some remains. How long did it take to find those remains? 1 or 2 minutes? In that time, more remains are being planted. Then we move on to find them, another 1 or 2 minutes while more is being planted and so on. I am not saying this is what happened but this is why 5 minutes is irrelevant. Unless the entire scene was captured, frozen, and then explored within those same 5 minutes, it is a red herring.

I am sorry you got so confused by MM's complete loss of logic but please stop jumping from thread to thread to respond to people that you apparently do not understand. Simple reading back a post or two would really help you out.

Why would the scene have had to be staged in 5 minutes again? What is the logic there? If it was not all discovered in 5 minutes, then they had the entire time it was being explored to continue to stage the scene.

Let me know what parts you will need help with here.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:01 AM
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reply to post by K J Gunderson
 


The scene would have had to be staged in a very relatively (and impossibly short) span of time. mmichael mused "5 minutes" as an exaggeration I suppose...in order to make his point.

BUT, you just helped by mentioning how long it took to clean it all up!!!

Fact is, there were thousands of people involved with cleanup, and it took how long, again???

SO, by logic, just how long would it it have taken, and how many people, in order to fully "stage" the "faked" scene??? An activity that NO ONE witnessed, NO ONE reported seeing???

Further....I think what mmichael was trying to convey is, prior to the American Airlines 77 impact, the entire area around the pentagon was perfectly normal.

No downed light poles, no debris on the ground, in the parking lot, on the roadways, etc.

No fires in the building. NOTHING.

Suddenly, in just moments, ALL OF THIS CHAOS!!!

That's kinda sorta what happens in airplane crashes. One second it's normal, the next? Devastation.

HOW did the scene get "staged" and "faked" so quickly???

Can you see how illogical it is to think it could have been "faked"?



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:02 AM
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Actually, I think MM's suggested 5 minutes to stage the scene is an exaggeration. As there were witnesses to the impact I don't see how there was any time at all.

KJ's idea that there were people still casually dumping stuff, like plane landing gear and engine parts presumably, after emergency services and police were on the scene is just too ludicrous even for a conspiracy forum.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by Alfie1

Actually, I think MM's suggested 5 minutes to stage the scene is an exaggeration. As there were witnesses to the impact I don't see how there was any time at all.


Who witnessed the impact again? Everytime this claim gets made, a list is thrown up of people that it turns out, did NOT witness that impact at all. Who witnessed the impact again?


KJ's idea that there were people still casually dumping stuff, like plane landing gear and engine parts presumably, after emergency services and police were on the scene is just too ludicrous even for a conspiracy forum.


So in five minutes or less, everyone could see the identifying plane debris and DNA? Really? None of the official reports seem to claim that. In fact, no identifying plane parts were ever recovered so none of that needed to be dropped. What time did they find that curious engine again? Within 5 minutes? The DNA that was collected was all spotted by these impact witnesses in the first 5 minutes?

Ok, so no identifying plane parts but they find a mysterious engine MUCH later on. "Hey I just found an engine over here." "Really, the impact witnesses did not see it right away and it took all this time to find it, there is no way this was planted."


"We finally recovered all this microscopic DNA but don't worry. It could not have been planted because apparently some people saw the impact."



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:37 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
Fact is, there were thousands of people involved with cleanup, and it took how long, again???

SO, by logic, just how long would it it have taken, and how many people, in order to fully "stage" the "faked" scene??? An activity that NO ONE witnessed, NO ONE reported seeing???


Thousands of people found identifying plane parts and DNA? Can you please link to some proof of this? There is a big difference between milling around the lawn helping move debris and actually finding evidence of AA77. Where does it say thousands of people were involved in the evidence chain of custody?



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:43 AM
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reply to post by Lillydale
 


Sorry....many here are trying to help you.

Derision and a lack of interest in understanding aren't helping you one iota.

You honestly think that during the intense period after the impact, when there were people there 24/7 doing clean up, search, recovery, etc, that "top-sekrit" double-dip amazing Ninja "sekrit" OPS were carried out, by carting in all of the debris to "plant" it, right in full view of every one else???

Really?

This is the fantasy of action-adventure movies --- not real life.

The area was considered a crime scene. Access was restricted. Or, didn't you realize this simple fact?

Ya know, it is the fault of the stupid conspiracy clowns who promote these "theories"...and lie, sometimes...or just misrepresent on purpose.

There's an example from that dreadful "Loose Change" that was discussed recently. A scene, with narration, telling the audience how agents are seen carrying 'something' under a blue tarp out of the Pentagon crash site....

In reality, the footage was of agents carrying IN TO THE SCENE a tent and equipment to set up as part of the search and recovery.

Blatant, blatant lies from the two dooooods and their crapolla mooooovie.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:49 AM
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reply to post by Lillydale
 


[sigh]

Thousands of people were involved, in one way or another, during the extended time AFTER the morning of 11 September.

This has been repeatedly discussed on ATS...and, if I recall, YOU participated.

It is not my area of expertise...I learned of it the same way you did...HERE.

But, it isn't surprising to me, since I live here, and lived through those times. Watched the news. Over and over again.

After doing just a quick search, I find so many silly websites promoting the most outlandish claims...I'm guessing that's where you get most of your information?? Sad.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Lillydale
 


[sigh]

Thousands of people were involved, in one way or another, during the extended time AFTER the morning of 11 September.

This has been repeatedly discussed on ATS...and, if I recall, YOU participated.


I did? What? I have never even been to the Pentagon but gosh, I hope I was helpful.

I did not ask how many peole were involved in the cleanup in one way or another. The man who helped move some parts of fallen wall into a pile does not really matter much to me. Some guy that helped carry the blue tarp, not really relevant. Anyone that was there to help dismantle the fallen wall, still not all that relevant. None of these people were identifying DNA or plane parts.


It is not my area of expertise...I learned of it the same way you did...HERE.


Tsk tsk. This would be to assume I learned a lot about 9/11 in just the last few years of reading ATS. Sorry if that is the case but I had much more info before I found ATS.


But, it isn't surprising to me, since I live here, and lived through those times. Watched the news. Over and over again.

After doing just a quick search, I find so many silly websites promoting the most outlandish claims...I'm guessing that's where you get most of your information?? Sad.


You assume and you guess and both are wrong. In all that assuming and guessing, you also forgot to make a point. Thousands of people identified plane parts and DNA? Where is this info? Look who I am asking, you get most of your info from ATS. Anyone with real sources out there that can back this claim up, thanks.

WW, you really should invest in a journal. That would be a great place for posts like this. I think it is sweet that you share how you feel and what you think about me here but I was looking for actual information about 9/11.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Lillydale
 


Sorry....many here are trying to help you.

Derision and a lack of interest in understanding aren't helping you one iota.


You are right. Derision and lack of interest are not helping me at all. Perhaps you should knock it off.


You honestly think that during the intense period after the impact, when there were people there 24/7 doing clean up, search, recovery, etc, that "top-sekrit" double-dip amazing Ninja "sekrit" OPS were carried out, by carting in all of the debris to "plant" it, right in full view of every one else???

Really?


Gosh, let me think. NO identifiable plane parts and microscopic DNA...hmmm. Yes I have no problem believing that could have been brought in covertly but that is not the issue. Thousands of people did not discover this DNA so it never even had to be planted. The team that supposedly found it only had to claim to find it. As for the identifiable plane parts that were never found...well I have no problem believing that super secret ninja agents could very easy not bother to plant things that were never found even by thousands of people.


This is the fantasy of action-adventure movies --- not real life.


What you are suggesting maybe but not my scenario.


The area was considered a crime scene. Access was restricted. Or, didn't you realize this simple fact?


Restricted to whom? The thousands of people you claim were picking up dead people and plane engines? Was it restricted or crawling with thousands of people? Please pick one.


Ya know, it is the fault of the stupid conspiracy clowns who promote these "theories"...and lie, sometimes...or just misrepresent on purpose.


Theories like thousands of people were in a restricted crime scene picking up DNA and plane parts that do not exist within 5 minutes? I know, crazy right?


There's an example from that dreadful "Loose Change" that was discussed recently. A scene, with narration, telling the audience how agents are seen carrying 'something' under a blue tarp out of the Pentagon crash site....

In reality, the footage was of agents carrying IN TO THE SCENE a tent and equipment to set up as part of the search and recovery.

Blatant, blatant lies from the two dooooods and their crapolla mooooovie.



Uh huh. Why do you always have to play this game? Was I talking about Loose Change or what direction any tarp was being carried in? I ask about something very specific and you always try to debunk something unrelated and then speak as if you somehow showed me I am wrong. Go debate Jason about his movie if you want to discuss it. I am talking about the thousands of people that were collecting DNA within 5 minutes.



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by Alfie1

Actually, I think MM's suggested 5 minutes to stage the scene is an exaggeration. As there were witnesses to the impact I don't see how there was any time at all.

KJ's idea that there were people still casually dumping stuff, like plane landing gear and engine parts presumably, after emergency services and police were on the scene is just too ludicrous even for a conspiracy forum.


Thanks guys for the attempts at interpretation. I don't want to get into this deeply as if there ever was a need prove an airplane hit the Pentagon. Those entertaining the strange belief that it didn't are plainly incapable of critical thinking. Who really cares about their irrational arguments?

The actual impact was at 9:37 AM. So at 9:35, Flight AA77 is about 15 miles from the Pentagon. People are in their offices, crews are installing furniture to the renovated section. On the highway traffic is flowing as usual, light poles are up and illuminating the road a few hours earlier.

By 9:40 The plane has crashed. The area is turmoil and carnage. Light poles are downed. The building is ablaze, fuel is exploding, walls are collapsing. Tons of melted aluminum flowing in the massive wreckage of plane, building, office, bodies. Plane debris scattered on the lawn.

Hundreds on the scene within minutes - car passersby, area residents, Pentagon staffers, rescue crews streaming in.

To even think that a never seen convoy of trucks carrying tons and tons of simulated plane wreckage, human body parts, etc are busy dumping their loads is not even a joke.

There will be the inevitable unsupported protestation that government agents are lying, hundreds of credible witnesses are wrong, tons of later analyzed forensic evidence and passenger remains don't exist.

Anyone with half a brain realizes what's been going on in this absurd discussion. Sparked by a couple opportunistic scumbag pseudo-investigators trying to lead not particularly bright people to totally whacko conclusions.

Some people feel enabled by certain shared cult beliefs giving them a sense of self worth. They reject what they call the "OS" They want to believe government tried to trick people - but they're so smart they can see through this deception.

If they were to come around to accepting that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon they would feel like fools. Or I should say bigger fools.

So deny, deny, deny.

Not much else can be said.


[edit on 18-12-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on Dec, 18 2009 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by Lillydale
 


Lillydale

I don't know where you get the idea that no-one witnessed the plane impact with the Pentagon. There are accounts all over the internet.

Does it seem possible to you that a mammoth office building surrounded by major highways could be struck by a low flying passenger on a bright sunny morning and no-one saw it ?

You must have been offered lists before which you have presumably hand-waved away. I wont therefore give you another list but a specific front row witness. Sean Boger was the Heliport Air Traffic Controller at the Pentagon on 9/11. He was very nearly killed as his tower was just yards from the impact. This is what he had to say :- " I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building. It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building. " Ludicrously, he is put forward as a CIT witness.

Sean would have been in a perfect place to see anyone dumping light poles, pruning trees, dumping plane parts etc as his tower overlooked everything. Haven't heard that he did see anything.



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