Do any Jews forgive Hitler/the Nazis?

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


The OP hasn't laid claims that the Jewish people were the only ones injured during the war. No one is saying that other religions or nationalities are unimportant. The topic of THIS thread, in this particular moment in time, is about Jewish people forgiving the Nazi's. Entire books have been written on the subject, so I am a little confused over your seeming outrage that it is being presented for discussion here.

It is a valid curiosity in and of itself, a unique event in world history, and deserving of whatever attention anyone might care to give it, or of whatever thoughts one might ponder.

The topic has been narrowed and refined to exclude the information you bring forth. See?

Forgiveness is a complicated matter in many ways. I myself, created my first thread on ATS devoted entirely to it. "Forgiveness is (not always) divine." References are made to small infractions against one's ego, or person, all the way to the big issues....including genocide.

[edit on 8/30/0909 by ladyinwaiting]

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

"Let's forgive and forget. ..!"
How many times have I heard that statement. . . The two go hand in hand together, and like the statement says, once you forgive you are only a hairs breadth away from forgetting as well!
I've heard estimates as high as 20 million jews died in the holocaust and thats without counting the gypsies, the mentally ill, the infirm and disabled who were all murdered by the Nazi's.
I'm sorry my friend but I can't agree with you. We daresn't forgive because if we do we may forget, and those who forget their history are likely going to to repeat it.

first of all, saying "jews" is offensive to people of the jewish faith. secondly.. my dad's side of the family is jewish, and I can tell you firsthand, no, no one forgives hitler. This man, along with his millions of insane supporters killed millions of innocent people, not only jewish people, but blacks, gypsies, gays... anyone who did not fit the "perfect mold" for his ideal race.

He tortured them in the worst of ways. He had doctors who conducted insane experiments on men, women, and children, and they almost always ended in death. He made the millions in concentration camps die slowly and painfully and they had to live the last days of their life in absolute fear.

What hitler did represents an unspeakable evil of which no normal human being posesses. He was able to convince millions of people that what he was doing was right... and that alone is scary as it is.

The man was the antichrist. The answer to your question? I do not, nor does any jewish person I have ever known, forgive Hitler for the millions of innocent people he killed.. for no reason other than his own hatred towards anyone who didnt fit his ideal person.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Once again if this is the case the thread belongs in the Relgious forums or Phillosophy not in Political Issues.

It is disengenuous to post a question regarding theology in Political Issues and entirely innapropriate as well.

The Original Posters selection of forums can not mask the fact that it has a political bent to it and not the phillosphical or religious tones that few have responded with.

The posts speak for themselves, the forum speaks for itself, and while I appreciate your desire to interpet this on my behalf I am in fact soliciting for no such service.

A lot of good and decent people of all faiths, all nationalities, all races, and all walks of life died in World War II.

Further the Nazi crimes were not aimed at all Jews, nor all Slavs, nor all Homosexuals, nor all Gypsies or Political Dissidents but only those who could be brought under the physical control of the German Nazi State.

The fact that it is all about politics is why it's in the political forum, the fact that no other targeted group by the Nazis such as Homosexuals doesn't feel it relates to all Homosexuals years later is also politically telling, that a group who doesn't see an advantage of trying to make political points or raise it's stature by making hay out of a long dead despots acts of homicidal aggression sees no personal horror in the present out of acts in the distance past.

As far as the power to forgive itself goes...it is the only thing that stops the Karmic Wheel. Regardless of why someone chooses not to forgive is irrelevant, the fact that they can not forgive keeps them on the Karmic Wheel.

Forgiving and forgetting are two entirely different things though and while one may choose not to forget those who typically choose not to forgive remain trapped inside the Karmic Wheel as a result as they relive over and over again the same inherent fears and pains in an entirely self inflicted manner.

Sadly for such 'victims' the notion of being 'victims' leads them to believe they have a divine right to victimize others and we do see this in how the Israeli State conducts it's affairs.

The Holocaust and World War II needs to stop being improperly portrayed for political license to victimize others and that is just what is in fact being done and it's why this thread was posted in the Political Forum and not Religion or Phillosophy.

I wasn't alive in World War II, but I wasn't born yesterday either and I knew many people who ere alive in World War II and exposed too all the horrible aspects of it.

If the politically minded Jews of the world don't want the world to forget what happened in World War II, then neither do I and a people unable to forgive still looking to exact a toll of vengence on a person and a state long dead truly do need to look for victims of that vengence elsewhere and frankly that's slowly turning into a greater crime all on it's own than the Holocaust itself was.

I don't think my Grandma could ever forgive the murderers who killed her parents, siblings, and nieces.

Just a feeling. You could ask her if you wanted, though. She speaks at many public places about everything she saw and witnessed in the concentration camps and in the town she was from (some things that many people believe never existed). One of her nieces was the only other survivor on that part of my family, and yes, she did move to Israel because at the time she had nowhere else to go.



Education is one way to tackle ignorance.

[edit on 8/30/2009 by ravenshadow13]

reply to post by Mintwithahole.


Hmm. I don't think I've made myself clear. My point in "Forgiveness is (not always) Divine", implies that forgiveness is not always essential. That there are simply acts which are unforgiveable. It can be very complicated, and one can have multiple reasons for forgiving. In issues such as genocide, slavery, murder (the big issues) it can take generations.

Quite often it is more of a "letting go" to free oneself of anger and resentment, rather than to exonerate offenders. I don't really know of anyone who has ever even imagined to forgive Adolph Hitler, and I'm certainly not advocating this here. Forgiving Adolplh Hitler is completely unnecessary. I will never forgive whoever murdered JFK, and it is not necessary for me to do so. Now, is it necessary for Caroline Kennedy?
It's a different matter altogether. While it is a political loss for me, it is a personal loss for her. If she should become ill, say, from bitterness, than yes, she would need to seek some type resolution.

I, too, like some others, was curious to hear responses from those who hold these legacies.

...and slavery, also. I don't think African Americans have forgiven this yet. Generations.......maybe.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

As far as the power to forgive itself goes...it is the only thing that stops the Karmic Wheel. Regardless of why someone chooses not to forgive is irrelevant, the fact that they can not forgive keeps them on the Karmic Wheel.

Well, if you're right I'll be quite happy to spend the rest of my days on your "karmic wheel". I'll never forgive and most definately will never forget. . . And, more importantly, neither should anyone else!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I don't believe the thread inherently has a "political bent", and I don't think it originally started out here. It does not appear to have the intention of discussing WWII as a whole, but appears to be attempting to look at the feelings of the ancesters of holocaust survivors.

I get it.

You?

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

As far as the power to forgive itself goes...it is the only thing that stops the Karmic Wheel. Regardless of why someone chooses not to forgive is irrelevant, the fact that they can not forgive keeps them on the Karmic Wheel.

Well, if you're right I'll be quite happy to spend the rest of my days on your "karmic wheel". I'll never forgive and most definately will never forget. . . And, more importantly, neither should anyone else!

That's truly sad because you will always see yourself as a victim and or a potential victim and as such will always be by extension victimizing others with your inability to assimilate and learn and grow through the experience.

The ideal of Judaism/Zionism is a complex one as it shifts its focus both collectively and individually from time to time from matters of state (Israel) to matters of race (the hereditary Jew) to matters of religion (The various Hebrew Sects).

To my knowledge no one other nation, race or religion seeks to constantly define itself through so many hats.

Yet my point is that there is a danger in that because as the focus shifts from one aspect to another it’s easy to loose sight of how an aspect such as what the State does (the political body of Jews and Jewish politics) can affect the Religious (the parishioner) or the human being (the race).

In my humble opinion it can lead to a improperly diagnosed premise when the politics of a group, then have a backlash on the religion of a group, and the religion is comprised of primarily a specific race.

There is much to be said for the American forefathers wanting to separate religion and state.

My own understanding of a far deeper examination of that period of history is that the Jews feel out of favor in Germany because of politics and not religion and not because of Nazi politics but because of Jewish political goals and lets be honest, Jews as a race, religion and a State in Diaspora and now a De Facto State do have political goals. Political goals that sometimes run counter to their host countries in Diaspora and it has led to difficulties for those Jews who are only Jewish in race and those Jews who are simply spiritual with no mind to or for a collective body politic.

No group was simply singled out by Hitler from random prejudice, but was singled out because he saw it being counter productive to the state.

The myth of the Holocaust is Jews were singled out for their religion and or race, and the reality is they were singled out for their politics, their machinations inside of Germany post Balfour Agreement during the final phase of World War I and in the post World War I years and their flirtations with Bolshevism and Communism.

Down playing how Jewish politics factored into the Nazi's State's genocidal policies has a real drawback to the rest of the world in that it has been taught a false presumption that Fascism and Nazism is really about racism and while Eugenics figured predominately in Fascism and Nazism the political inclinations of various races, religions and lifestyles factored in heavily into Eugenics itself.

Like the OP's decision to post this thread in the Political forum instead of the Religious forum what happened to everyone who became victims of the Fascist State really was about politics. The political leanings of the larger group and how it fit productively into the State is what caused the Jews along with other groups to be singled out by the Fascists.

Fascism is on the rise again all across the globe and most people can't recognize it for what it is because it has been so distorted in definition by Jewish politics.

I see a clear and present danger in the rise of Fascism for everyone including the Jews and in my humble opinion one of the reasons so many people are having a hard time identifying the growing elements of fascism in Western pseudo representative democracies is because of the distorted view of Fascism created for the sake of Jewish/Israeli/Zionist politics.

Simply put some people never forget but some people never learn either.

Some people never learn because they are incapable of forgiveness...
Most especially themselves...and most especially when they fail to recognize their own culpability in what eventually led to a situation where harm befell the greater group because of the political aspirations and machinations of the few or the leading body that then tars the larger group through those actions.

You can't forgive others in life until you are first capable of forgiving yourself in life and if arrogance or ignorance or sheer willful deceit prevents one from acknowledging their own faults and mistakes the fist step of learning to forgive, the act of forgiving one's self than can't move to the next step of forgiving others.

Here in lies the legendary Jewish guilt, and it really does suffer collectively a karmic debt for it, and it really does perpetuate it's own victimization as a result and it really does it by victimizing others through that singular inability to display what is arguably humanities greatest virtue...the ability to forgive.

To err is human to forgive is divine and Houston we have a problem there with a group of people who through wearing so many hats have become jacks of all trades and Masters of none.

That lack of mastery would include the propaganda field and I am calling foul and flag on the play!




[edit on 31/8/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by ladyinwaiting


Oh I get it just fine, the inference that no one else suffered in the Holocaust.

For once again if it's about forgiving Hitler and the Nazis for the Holocaust the Holocaust killed a lot more non-Jews than it did Jews so the forgiveness question if it were really about what you 'get' should have gone into the Philosophies or Spirituality Forum.

If it were just to respectfully asked 'only' the descendants of Jewish victims of the Holocaust which the OP did a poor job of doing if that was their intent it would have appeared in the Religious forum.

You 'get' what you want to get for the sake of convenience.

I on the other had 'get it all' as in all the political, spiritual, religious, military and historical aspects of World War II and the Holocaust and the uniquely Jewish angle is a highly propagandized and politicized and distorted one that has an inherent danger for all of humanity that I 'get' and that's why I take exception to it and speak out on the subject.

As I said a page ago, have the moderators move the thread to the religious forum and I will self delete every post to the thread, but as the thread stands every post I have made is very pertinent and very 'on topic' regardless if it is convenient for someone's politics or not.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by ladyinwaiting

 

"Let's forgive and forget. ..!"

A stubborn man neither forgives or forgets, a foolish man both forgives and forgets. An intelligent man forgives but never forgets

I'm going to give you a star and a flag for a great discussion thread, but I'm not going to touch this one with a ten foot pole

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Yes, of course. I forgot who I was talking to. Have a good day.
Spread your infinite wisdom far and wide! I know you will.

reply to post by TheFaiThfulSkepTic


"Lets forgive and forget".....no,no,no.

It appears as though you are quoting me on this, and I never said this, and I want to clarify this. Didn't say it, wouldn't say it. (I did very much like your quote, however, and have made a note of it).
__________________________
As far as I can see the thread has been derailed. Forgiveness is entirely a subjective matter. One's thoughts on it are entirely subjective. Yet, this is on the path to becoming a junkyard brawl. It's like arguing with someone over their favorite color, (although that is completely minimizing the issue here for which I apologize). It's the best I can come up with as my coffee brews this morning.

Have a good day, all.

Peace over&out,
liw

Forgiveness is preached in almost every religion because it's part of letting go of one's own hateful feelings which is ultimately part of the path to inner peace.

It's important to let go of that hate so that you can deal with the people who commit atrocities in a sane manner and mete out justice in a way that god, karma, or whatever higher power you choose will not ultimately punish you for.

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
From what I've heard, forgiveness in Judaism requires the pardon from the victim, which would mean essentially that murder is an unforgivable sin, and thus it is impossible and morally wrong for anyone, even a Jew, to forgive the Nazis.

I can't speak as a Jew because I'm not one. It would be very interesting to hear from one who is well educated in the religion as to that rule.

On the other hand, perhaps the blame for what happened during the time leading up to and including WWII should be spread a tad wider than the Nazis themselves.

First, I would blame the centuries of anti-Semetic hatred that preceded. Solely accused in the death of Jesus, the Jews were persecuted and the Romans were able to wash their hands of the convenient execution. I blame all those who blindly accepted that thinking and turned their disgust onto the people which Jesus lived among.

Secondly, I blame Kaiser Wilhelm, the Ottoman Turks and the Bulgarians for their reckless destruction of Belgium and France during the Great War.
Perhaps it's not directly related to the topic here, but that venture laid the foundation for the ideas that Corporal Hitler came to hold dear.

Thirdly, I blame Bolshivism, which was on the rise in the east and threatened the banking system.

Fourthly, I blame Woodrow Wilson, Lloyd George and Clemenceau for their bumbling efforts to reshape the world during the 1919 Peace Talks in Paris.

Their actions set the stage for all the troubles we see in the Caucases today, but in particular the development of a Germany hell bent on revenge.

Finally, I blame Hitler and his cronies for their misguided adventures and lack of basic humanity. There is no excuse for what they did. However, they learned their lessons on genocide from the Turks in relation to the Armenians and they learned the value of concentration camps from the British during the Boer War.

In other words, there is plenty of blame to go around.

Bottom line: anti-semeticism and the potential for violence still lives today. It's the common thread for a thousand years of turmouil.

[edit on 31/8/09 by masqua]

Originally posted by ravenshadow13
I don't think my Grandma could ever forgive the murderers who killed her parents, siblings, and nieces.

Just a feeling. You could ask her if you wanted, though. She speaks at many public places about everything she saw and witnessed in the concentration camps and in the town she was from (some things that many people believe never existed). One of her nieces was the only other survivor on that part of my family, and yes, she did move to Israel because at the time she had nowhere else to go.



Education is one way to tackle ignorance.

[edit on 8/30/2009 by ravenshadow13]

Yeah, it's certainly understandable she wouldn't. I can't say I would myself.

Now, whether it's right to hold on to the hate, that's a different story. I sure don't blame her though if she does.

Originally posted by calihan_12
first of all, saying "jews" is offensive to people of the jewish faith.

isn't that what they're called though, even by themselves?

If calling people of the Jewish faith "Jews" is offensive, isn't calling people of the Christian faith "Christians" offensive too, or people of the Buddhist faith "Buddhists"?

Originally posted by TheFaiThfulSkepTic

Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
reply to post by ladyinwaiting

 

"Let's forgive and forget. ..!"

A stubborn man neither forgives or forgets, a foolish man both forgives and forgets. An intelligent man forgives but never forgets

With the greatest of respects I think you're wrong. It's not about being stubborn, or foolish or even intelligent- it's about making sure that a wrong which resulted in millions of people being cruely murdered never happens again. And if the entire world need reminding of what happened every other day then so be it. While it is at the forefront of peoples memories then it simply cannot happen again. Descent human beings wouldn't allow it!