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Do any Jews forgive Hitler/the Nazis?

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posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 06:28 PM
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From what I've heard, forgiveness in Judaism requires the pardon from the victim, which would mean essentially that murder is an unforgivable sin, and thus it is impossible and morally wrong for anyone, even a Jew, to forgive the Nazis.

However, I'm sure like any religion, there are different ways of interpreting this, and I imagine a small minority of Jewish people do forgive Hitler and the Nazis for what was done to their people.




posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 06:43 PM
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I think the better question would be :

Do any Nazi ask for forgiveness from the Jews for persecuting them ??



posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 07:22 PM
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reply to post by Donnie Darko
 


Could you forgive the people who killed all your family..gassed them..
recycled them!!!.
People have killed in war..but the cold inhuman murder that took place
is unforgivable.
Could you forgive..you must have family..could you forgive?

No matter what i believe..i would never ever forgive the slaughter of my
family.



posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 07:24 PM
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It wouln't accomplish much that's for sure.

Apologies aren't worth anything these days. Actions are.

I would actually find it a waste of time for Jews to just forgive the Nazi Regime since it doesn't exist anymore.

To make matters worse if they did, Israel would not have an excuse to treat Palestinians the same way.

~Keeper



posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 08:00 PM
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News Flash:

OVER 54 MILLION PEOPLE DIED IN WORLD WAR II.

Many of them were NOT JEWISH.

Many of them were FORCED to fight and had NO CHOICE EITHER.

Why do 48 MILLION PEOPLE NEVER MATTER but 6 Million Jews ONLY matter?

A lot of people who are NOT JEWISH would have NO REASON to EVER FORGIVE HITLER.

Why don't they matter?

Why don't their sacrifices matter?

I hate to break it to you but Hitler sure was NOT the ONLY RACIST thing to come out of World War II.

Case in point the title and reason of this thread.

STOP negating the rest of the world, NO ONE RACE OR RELIGION is MORE important or SHOULD be MORE IMPORTANT than any other.



posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 10:00 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


Erm, I don't think he was negating the sacrifices everyone made in WW2 and he never made the claim Jewish people were the only ones the Nazis killed.

He just asked if it was possible within the religion of Judaism for Jews to forgive Nazis for attempting to exterminate them.

It seems to have struck quite a chord with you though!


Anyway, I'm not sure what the Jewish religion would dictate about forgiveness to the Nazis. As far as I know it's an eye for an eye, right? So if you go by technicalities the Jewish people would have to kill an equal number of Nazis to forgive the Nazis. I'm not Jewish, and I don't study Jewish law so I can't say for sure.

I believe forgiveness isn't a group process so much as an individual reflection and personal choice. Some may have forgiven the Nazis, others pitied them, and others hate them for the rest of their lives. Who knows?



posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by Avenginggecko
 





Erm, I don't think he was negating the sacrifices everyone made in WW2 and he never made the claim Jewish people were the only ones the Nazis killed.


How do you figure that? For I certainly missed the appeal to the countless other nationalities and religions that spilled blood FIGHTING the Nazis.

Revisionist history has practically made World War II ALL ABOUT the Jews and Hitler and the Hollocuaust and the inference is often that no one else but Jews suffered as a result of the war and no one but Jews died tragic untimely horrible deaths as a result of the war.

Is there really a difference between being drafted at Gunpoint and sent to the front lines with a political commissar at your back with a gun trained on you demanding you make a suicidal frontal attack where death is absolutely certain and being rounded up and carted off to a forced labor and extermination camp?

Do you realize Americans were hanged in World War II for cowardice if they refused to fight? That's right hung.

Do you realize twice as many Slavs died in the concentration camps than Jews and the only reason they were forced into labor in the camps and exterminated was because they were Slavs?

Yet thanks to the blatantly racist politics of Israel and the Hollocaust everyone else who suffered and died in World War II is made to seem inconsequential by threads like these and comments like yours.

So here is a question for you if TWICE as many Slavs died in the camps would it be TWO times HARDER for them to FORGIVE Hitler?

Who has long been dead.

This thread is no different than Blacks could you forgive Whites for having enslaved your Great, Great Grandparents?

Instead of Jews could you forgive Hitler and the Nazis for what was done to SOME of your grand parents and great grand parents.

It's utter nonsense and all part of the never let anyone else forget so we can never ever have to uphold the same standards of morality and international law.

So we can always be seen as victims.

In the process the non-victims who weren't even alive at the time or even knew anyone who was alive and exposed to this victimize all the other people who sacrificed their lives and limbs in World War II.

The question of course really ought to be Jews can you ever forgive yourself for cowardly going to your own deaths when so many other people had no choice but to fight bravely or die too?

That would be a far more honest question because a whole lot more people than just the Jews died as a result of Nazi aggression and genocide.

Had the OP really wanted to be responsible the Thread title would have been: Can the Homosexuals, Slavs, Gypsies, Political Dissidents, Catholics and Jews who suffered in Nazi Labor and Death Camps ever forgive Hitler and the Nazis?

Now had the OP really had a religious angle of what it takes for Jews to forgive based on scripture this would be posted in the Religion Forum and not the Political Issues.

This is Politics, Jewish and Israeli and Zionists politics still trying to make hay by victimizing everyone else who died, and suffered, and fought and died and suffered by trying to convince the world nobody suffered as bad or more and it SIMPLY ISN'T TRUE.

It's politics and I won't make any excuse for overlooking the sacrifices so many other people had to SHED BLOOD FOR.

Thanks.



posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Avenginggecko
 




Erm, I don't think he was negating the sacrifices everyone made in WW2 and he never made the claim Jewish people were the only ones the Nazis killed.


How do you figure that? For I certainly missed the appeal to the countless other nationalities and religions that spilled blood FIGHTING the Nazis.


This is where you have it absolutely WRONG. The Jews didnt die "FIGHTING" but were EXTERMINATED. There is a Monumental difference between the two states. The former are casualties of war, the latter are victims of genocide! Can you comprehend the difference ?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Revisionist history has practically made World War II ALL ABOUT the Jews and Hitler and the Hollocuaust and the inference is often that no one else but Jews suffered as a result of the war and no one but Jews died tragic untimely horrible deaths as a result of the war.


Again, the thread talks about Judaisms principles on forgiveness and how it would apply to Nazis. Nobody on this thread has denied the deaths of millions of others; be they homosexuals,the mentally retarded, gypsies, Communists, unionists etc.
Your rant has little to do with the topic at hand and you are merely carrying the argument off in a tangent.


[edit on 29-8-2009 by IAF101]



posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 11:09 PM
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I do find this discussion very interesting. In Christianity, it is sometimes asserted that in order for US the be forgiven for our sins, we must be willing to forgive those that have sinned AGAINST us.

It's even part of common prayer. "forgive us our trespasses AS WE forgive those who have trespassed against us."

I know this isn't about Christianity, it's just the only frame of reference I really have.

I wish I knew more about the Jewish faith. I hope someone will pop in and enlighten us, and that we can discuss this without it deteriorating into the usual slug fest.

If a person of Jewish faith was not directly affected by the actions of the Nazis (going out on a limb) then I would assume their 'forgiveness' is irrelevant. If a person, still wearing a tattooed number on their wrist, or carrying around internal wounds, they would of course be the ideal respondents to such a question.

Regardless of faith, it would seem to me that any person harboring resentments for such a long time, or even ones recently acquired, is subject to all types of negative emotional and physical consequences. It seems to me, that despite the atrocities, the Jewish people would NEED to forgive, in order to maintain their OWN emotional health.

Again, I am very interested in obtaining some insight into this one. Thanks for the thread.



posted on Aug, 29 2009 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by IAF101
 


Then as I stated my Israeli Air Force friend the thread should be in the Religious Forum and not the Political Forum then shouldn't it?

Or are we playing the wait...it's a race...no it's a nation...no it's a religion game again here? Which cup is the magic bean under watch careful now!

It's not a rant, it's a fact, it's a political question in the politcal forum, and the politics of making World War II all about the Jews and the Hollocaust is pathetic, and done for disengenuous reasons.

Have the mods put the thread in the Religious forum and I will delete every comment I made to the thread...in the mean time me thinks you are the one ranting my friend!

Shalom!

[edit on 29/8/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by jean59
reply to post by Donnie Darko
 


Could you forgive the people who killed all your family..gassed them..
recycled them!!!.
People have killed in war..but the cold inhuman murder that took place
is unforgivable.
Could you forgive..you must have family..could you forgive?

No matter what i believe..i would never ever forgive the slaughter of my
family.


I would try ... I dunno if I could though. Without my family I am nothing.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 09:33 AM
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reply to post by Donnie Darko
 


Sure...Jesus did.....



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 09:37 AM
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I think if the Jews want to regain their health, they have to let go of their hatred and forgive the Nazis.

I would argue, that within Judaism, they have authority to do so, since the Holocaust was a crime against the entire Jewish people.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by Donnie Darko
I think if the Jews want to regain their health, they have to let go of their hatred and forgive the Nazis.

I would argue, that within Judaism, they have authority to do so, since the Holocaust was a crime against the entire Jewish people.


They do not! They are not obliged in any way to forgive the unforgiveable...the myth that you must forgive your tormentors before you can proceed with life, or, as you say, regain your health, is nothing but a pile of gluck, imo...

Besides, you're confusing the religious beliefs of the jews with their actual personalities. How many jews shipped to the camps lost their faith? How many had that faith to begin with? Many who were shipped off to the concentration camps were jews in name only. Don't forget that plenty of non-jews, such as poles, homosexuals, the mentally-ill, thieves etc. were also thrown into those dark, loveless places for the deluded cause known as ethnic-cleansing.

So, are you saying that jews in particular are the ones who should forgive because of some silly clause in their religious teachings? I don't get it.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by VergeofObscene

Originally posted by Donnie Darko
I think if the Jews want to regain their health, they have to let go of their hatred and forgive the Nazis.

I would argue, that within Judaism, they have authority to do so, since the Holocaust was a crime against the entire Jewish people.


They do not! They are not obliged in any way to forgive the unforgiveable...the myth that you must forgive your tormentors before you can proceed with life, or, as you say, regain your health, is nothing but a pile of gluck, imo...

Besides, you're confusing the religious beliefs of the jews with their actual personalities. How many jews shipped to the camps lost their faith? How many had that faith to begin with? Many who were shipped off to the concentration camps were jews in name only. Don't forget that plenty of non-jews, such as poles, homosexuals, the mentally-ill, thieves etc. were also thrown into those dark, loveless places for the deluded cause known as ethnic-cleansing.

So, are you saying that jews in particular are the ones who should forgive because of some silly clause in their religious teachings? I don't get it.


No not in particular, I'm just saying when you continue to hate, you can't heal.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 06:13 PM
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I'm not jewish but my grandmother was so I suppose I have jewish blood in me. My father was also a military policeman who stopped the yank soldiers from shooting German prisoners of war when they first entered Belsen. As far as I'm concerned the horrors of the holocaust has to be kept in the public eye because the day people forget what happened is the day it may happen again.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I'm not jewish but my grandmother was so I suppose I have jewish blood in me. My father was also a military policeman who stopped the yank soldiers from shooting German prisoners of war when they first entered Belsen. As far as I'm concerned the horrors of the holocaust has to be kept in the public eye because the day people forget what happened is the day it may happen again.


I'm not saying we should forget, I'm just saying the victims should at least try to forgive. It's not good for the Jewish people or any other people to harbor such hatred, especially after 65+ years.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by Mintwithahole.
I'm not jewish but my grandmother was so I suppose I have jewish blood in me. My father was also a military policeman who stopped the yank soldiers from shooting German prisoners of war when they first entered Belsen. As far as I'm concerned the horrors of the holocaust has to be kept in the public eye because the day people forget what happened is the day it may happen again.


Then lets be realistic about what the Holocaust was and what it wasn’t and who all truly suffered as a result of it and stop making it a uniquely Jewish thing, for it surely wasn’t.

It is no safer to deny or forget the Holocaust than it is to misrepresent what it was, why it came to pass and who truly suffered it and why.

Revisionist history with a decidedly Jewish bent deliberately obscures and minimizes many important aspects of the Holocaust to the point that people who aren’t uniquely Jewish wouldn’t even know to recognize the elements that first came in play that led to a Fascist State choosing to intern, force into labor and then exterminate wide and varied undesirable swaths of it’s society and it’s incorporated regions for POLITICAL and NOT RELIGIOUS purposes.

Many people including but not limited to Jews and in fact in far, far and away greater numbers than Jews were interned, forced to labor and in many cases exterminated in the Nazi Concentration Camp System.

Pretending it was all about a perverse obsession with Jews and nothing but Jews and it all transpired for that singular reason is as patently dangerous as it is pretending it did not happen at all.

Lessons are only learned when the ENTIRE lesson is learned, not just a part of it highly politicized for varying purposes other than to learn the ENTIRE lesson.

For being forced fed a false version of it is tantamount to forgetting what REALLY happened.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 07:03 PM
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I believe that some are using the idea of historical revisionism improperly; from my experience, revisionism has always been applied to historiography and since 1945 first-hand investigations into the improprieties of the NAZIs indicated that the mass extermination of undesirables affected many.

However, the reason why the Holocaust is seen as primarily a Jewish phenomenon (although no one is denying the Slav, Christian, Gypsy context) is because of its relation to two measures which affect us a lot today; 1. The creation and impact of the modern state of Israel, and 2. Popular culture and hist-entertainment.

Taking advantage of the decline of relate able first-hand experience of concentration camp survivors and WW2 vets, some fringe-groups have been denying the Holocaust or using pseudo-history to propel their individual aims; given that the INCIDENT of the Holocaust is FACT scholars tend to see the intentional minimization of how it affected particular cultures as an extension of the pre-20th century phenomenon Anti-Semitism.. which, is really the case, the primary motive behind the historical revisionism of the Holocaust today.



posted on Aug, 30 2009 @ 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by Donnie Darko
From what I've heard, forgiveness in Judaism requires the pardon from the victim, which would mean essentially that murder is an unforgivable sin, and thus it is impossible and morally wrong for anyone, even a Jew, to forgive the Nazis.

However, I'm sure like any religion, there are different ways of interpreting this, and I imagine a small minority of Jewish people do forgive Hitler and the Nazis for what was done to their people.



In every religion unconditional love has to be shared, even with your assailants



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