About Hawaiian Birth Certificates

1. There used to be a provision that a person born outside of Hawaii, even outside of the country, could apply for and receive a Hawaiian birth certificate. People who wish that Obama was not a natural born citizen (known as "birthers") have long stated that this provision means that Obama's mother could have gotten a Hawaiian birth certificate (saying the baby was born in Hawaii) even though he was born in Kenya or elsewhere. This is not the case.

According to Janice Okubo, director of communications for the Hawaii Department of Health, a birth certificate issued in Hawaii to a person born OUTSIDE Hawaii would have the actual place of birth listed on it, but it would be issued by and kept on file by the Hawaii Department of Health, hence it's called a Hawaiian birth certificate. But it would not represent that the person was born in Hawaii.

Hawaiian Birth Certificates

Okubo, who said that she gets weekly questions from Obama ‘Birthers’ that are “more like threats,” explained that the certificate of live birth reproduced by Obama’s campaign should have debunked the conspiracy theories. “If you were born in Bali, for example,” Okubo explained, “you could get a certificate from the state of Hawaii saying you were born in Bali. You could not get a certificate saying you were born in Honolulu. The state has to verify a fact like that for it to appear on the certificate.

And since the information on a "short form" birth certificate comes directly from the information on the long form certificate, Obama's place of birth is clearly Honolulu.

2. There's also a "delayed" birth certificate, that can be issued to a person born in Hawaii up to one year after the birth. It is reliant on DOCUMENTARY evidence provided.

b. In 1961, if a person was born in Hawaii but not attended by a physician or mid wife, then, up to the first birthday of the child, an adult could, upon testimony, file a “Delayed Certificate”, which required endorsement on the Delayed Certificate of a summary statement of the evidence submitted in support of the acceptance for delayed filing, which evidence must be kept in a special permanent file. The statute provided that the probative value of the Delayed Certificate must be determined by the judicial or administrative body or official before whom the certificate is offered as evidence.

So, IF Obama was born outside of Hawaii and IF his parents applied for a delayed Hawaiian birth certificate, and IF they lied about where he was born, they clearly had enough documentary evidence to convince the Hawaii Department of Health that he was indeed born in Honolulu. And the evidence is on file. And IF Obama had a delayed Certificate of Birth, it would say "Delayed Certificate of Birth" right across the top.

Documentary evidence is required to qualify for a delayed certificate of birth.

If there is no standard birth certificate on file, an applicant is required to submit documentary evidence of the birth facts necessary to support of the registration of the late certificate of birth. If approved, the late birth certificate will be registered in place of the Certificate of Hawaiian Birth, which must then be surrendered to the Department of Health.

Hawaii Dept of Health

I seriously doubt this will change anyone's mind, as those who wish that Obama was not a natural born citizen are willing to believe just about anything that supports their desires, and grasping at straws has become a way of life for many of them. But I wanted to post it for the genuinely curious and for anyone who is interested in the subject.



[edit on 29-8-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

It's possible that his short-form birth certificate could have been Photoshopped.

He's used more than 39 social security numbers, and most of his academic records are lost.

please explain to me why a natural born citizen of the US would feel the need to attend college as a foreign exchange student from indonesia?

that fact says one of a few things, either a: college was cheaper that way, and therefore he lied about his origin then, b: he decided to denounce citizenship, making him disqualified, or c: he was not born a US Citizen...

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It's possible that his short-form birth certificate could have been Photoshopped.

There are infinite possibilities. It is possible that the White House is made of silly putty. But are you aware of the FactCheck investigation that showed the raised seal? People have physically handled the document and posted about it on the Internet. Odds are it's not a photoshop job.

He's used more than 39 social security numbers, and most of his academic records are lost.

These are new... Do you have a credible source for these pieces of information? Oh, never mind. I know you don't.

Originally posted by wx4caster
please explain to me why a natural born citizen of the US would feel the need to attend college as a foreign exchange student from indonesia?

Pardon me? Obama did NOT attend college as a foreign exchange student from Indonesia. That was an April Fool's HOAX.

Read these tiny words very closely: the group Americans for Freedom of Information does not exist, just like the supposed "AP article" you keep cutting and pasting into e-mails to your irritated family does not exist, just like the "Daily Mail article" referenced in the fake "AP article" does not exist. They're all fabrications. Fakes. Hoaxes.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
It's possible that his short-form birth certificate could have been Photoshopped.

There are infinite possibilities. It is possible that the White House is made of silly putty. But are you aware of the FactCheck investigation that showed the raised seal? People have physically handled the document and posted about it on the Internet. Odds are it's not a photoshop job.

Odd are, sooner or later someone will produce his long-form birth certificate, and find out who his real father is. I'm sure his grandmother will be rolling in her grave by then.

He's used more than 39 social security numbers, and most of his academic records are lost.

These are new... Do you have a credible source for these pieces of information? Oh, never mind. I know you don't.

I guess some pro-Zionist pro-Marxist pro-Maoist pro-Trotskyite newspaper would be a good enough source for you.

Originally posted by wx4caster
please explain to me why a natural born citizen of the US would feel the need to attend college as a foreign exchange student from indonesia?

Pardon me? Obama did NOT attend college as a foreign exchange student from Indonesia. That was an April Fool's HOAX.

Read these tiny words very closely: the group Americans for Freedom of Information does not exist, just like the supposed "AP article" you keep cutting and pasting into e-mails to your irritated family does not exist, just like the "Daily Mail article" referenced in the fake "AP article" does not
exist. They're all fabrications. Fakes. Hoaxes.

How about this:
tesibria.typepad.com...


[edit on 29-8-2009 by vcwxvwligen]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I have wondered about your posts for some time now.

These things they have in common:
You do not like conspiracies
You do not like theories (self-assured)
Your avatar is a police dog
There is no such thing as a 'good
heretic' (an opinion contrary to the
truth)

You also cite your sources as fact, while dismissing all others as nonsense - how magnanimous of you!

The fact is IF he had nothing to hide, Mr. Transparency would reveal his correct birth certificate (I have to show MY Hawaii birth certificate nest week to a state job search facility), the funding of his education, his ties to multiple communist/socialist/radical groups and individuals.

The FACT is his past will catch up with him.

By the way, is that a picture of Blondie, Hitler's favorite Alsatian?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But are you aware of the FactCheck investigation that showed the raised seal?

But are you aware of the fact that FactCheck is Annenberg .. the same Annenberg that Obama and terrorist Ayers were on... the same Annenberg that Obama was a board member of ... the same Annenberg that was a major $$$ contributor to the Obama campaign?

Of course you are aware of that. You've been told many times.
Guess you just like to forget about the important information
that makes your source completely unbelievable.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And IF Obama had a delayed Certificate of Birth, it would say "Delayed Certificate of Birth" right across the top.

ANd IF Obama had a delayed Certificate of Birth, he'd be fighting to keep it in the vault and hidden away from the American people. Oh wait ... that's exactly what he's doing ....

[edit on 8/30/2009 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I seriously doubt this will change anyone's mind, as those who wish that Obama was not a natural born citizen are willing to believe just about anything that supports their desires, and grasping at straws has become a way of life for many of them.

It's a good thing you didn't base your hopes for a future on anyone changing their minds, or even opening them a bit...

But I wanted to post it for the genuinely curious and for anyone who is interested in the subject.

And thanks, it did make some interesting reading.

However, I think Obama is a Gray... and I've got as much credible evidence to support that as the birthers have to support him being a Kenyan.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
Odd are, sooner or later someone will produce his long-form birth certificate,

That's certainly a possibility. As I said, possibilities are unlimited, Facts and evidence for your position are few.

I guess some pro-Zionist pro-Marxist pro-Maoist pro-Trotskyite newspaper would be a good enough source for you.

Uhh... Let me just say this. A YouTube video with spooky music and some dude insinuating something isn't considered a credible source.

How about this:
tesibria.typepad.com...

Did you read this source? First, it doesn't even mention Obama attending college as an Indonesian exchange student, which is what was claimed above. Secondly, it says there is NO evidence of most of the other rumors going around about his visit there while he was in his youth. Obama did TRAVEL to Pakistan when he was about 20, but he didn't "attend college as a foreign exchange student from Indonesia", as was claimed.

From YOUR source:

"...Obama traveled to Pakistan using his Indonesian passport." FALSE Evidence: None

Pakistan was so dangerous that it was on the State Department's travel ban list for U.S. Citizens. FALSE - Conclusion: Likely False; Contradicted by Contemporaneous Reporting and Not Supported by any Verifiable Facts

"He was well aware he maintained his Indonesia citizenship, and failed to regain his United States citizenship.". FALSE Evidence: None.

"Had Obama regained his United States citizenship, he would have been traveling on a United States Passport." FALSE Evidence: None

So... you want to try again?

Originally posted by skycopilot
I have wondered about your posts for some time now.

How flattering.

These things they have in common:
You do not like conspiracies
You do not like theories (self-assured)
Your avatar is a police dog
There is no such thing as a 'good
heretic' (an opinion contrary to the
truth)

I will address your assumptions:

1. Conspiracies are fine. But truth is FAR more important. I am skeptical of conspiracies. Believing every conspiracy that comes along gives conspiracy theorists a bad name and makes them look like nut-jobs. I do not latch onto every conspiracy. I require a good deal of evidence (not proof) to believe in them. So it's not that I don't like conspiracies, it's that I don't believe them all. And when the Obama Birth Certificate conspiracy arose, I delved into it with fellow ATS members to find out what the TRUTH was. I have been all through the Polarik and Techdude findings. We still don't know the truth, but I have my firm belief. And that is that Obama was born in Hawaii.

I DO believe strongly in a 9/11 conspiracy and several others.

2. I don't have a like or dislike of theories (in laymen's terms). I just don't claim them as facts. They are theories and must be backed by evidence to hold weight. Until then, they are possibilities or guesses. The theory of Obama being born outside of Hawaii is just a possibility, a guess.

Scientific theories are a different matter. And I don't understand the "self-assured" part of your comment. Sorry.

3. My avatar is not a police dog. That's Jaia, my German Shepherd. He is not trained for police work. He is my beloved pet. He also believes Obama was born in Hawaii.

4.

There is no such thing as a 'good heretic' (an opinion contrary to the truth)

Thanks for sharing your opinion contrary to the truth.

You also cite your sources as fact, while dismissing all others as nonsense - how magnanimous of you!

I cite credible sources as evidence and ask the same of other posters.

The fact is IF he had nothing to hide, Mr. Transparency would reveal his correct birth certificate ... the funding of his education, his ties to multiple communist/socialist/radical groups and individuals.

That's not a fact at all. That's what YOU might do. That's what you would like to see happen. That's a theory. A guess. You're confusing GUESSING with FACT.

The FACT is his past will catch up with him.

Another guess.

By the way, is that a picture of Blondie, Hitler's favorite Alsatian?

No. That is a picture of Jaia, My German Shepherd. I suppose if I had my daughter's picture there, you'd insult her as well... Nice.

reply to post by FlyersFan




[edit on 30-8-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

I hadn't seen this particular page before, but thought it would be relevant here.

PoliFact

At PolitiFact.com, we're all about original sources. We don't take anyone at their word or take the reporting of other media organizations as proof. We go to the heart of the story, the source of the truth — original, corroborating documents.
...
If this document is forged, a U.S. senator and his presidential campaign have perpetrated a vast, long-term fraud. They have done it with conspiring officials at the Hawaii Department of Health, the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics, the Illinois Secretary of State's office, the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois and many other government agencies.
...
And there's the rub. It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world's biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything's possible.

And that's what I'm saying. Anything's possible. But picking out possibilities that serve a highly illogical agenda, while ignoring the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, AND ignoring the 3 or 4 most likely explanations, shows a lack of reasoning ability in this area at least.

I would LOVE it if Obama would obtain and release an original copy of his long form birth certificate. I also hope legislation passes that requires future candidates to prove their eligibility to a committee. But nearly all signals point to Obama being eligible, even IF the short form he released is fake (which I don't believe it is).

One more thing. Here's why I don't trust Polarik's work. He makes too many assumptions.

1. He assumes that the BC he compared Obama's to is valid and not a fake itself.
2. The comparisons he made could easily (and probably do) have other explanations. You simply can't scan 2 different documents with 2 different computers and 2 different scanners by two different people and then zoom in to the pixel level and expect them to be identical. It's highly illogical.
3. Finally, he makes WAY too many assumptions and logic leaps. He makes a statement and then draws a conclusion without verifying the interim steps.

In other words, I think ANY of us could take 2 documents, scanned by two different computers, operators and scanners and then zoom in to the pixel level and find differences, too. In fact, it might be a very interesting experiment.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

PoliFact

...
If this document is forged, a U.S. senator and his presidential campaign have perpetrated a vast, long-term fraud. They have done it with conspiring officials at the Hawaii Department of Health, the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics, the Illinois Secretary of State's office, the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois and many other government agencies.
...
... Anything's possible.

And that's what I'm saying. Anything's possible.

Agreed. Anything is possible in this kind of scenario. And this is where Occam's Razor becomes important, nay, vital:

Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily

So we have some guy who was born in Hawaii, grew up, had his share of problems and mistakes, got involved in politics, had his share of problems and mistakes there, became a Senator then ran for President and was elected. He is probably roughly as clean or dirty as the general political bunch is in this early 21st century USA.

Or, we have some guy who was born in Kenya and who's parents initiated a massive fraud immediately, since they wanted him to become President. They planted two birth announcements in two different Hawaiian papers. They co-opted the involvement of state officials in at least two states in a massive fraud. This fraud took decades to mature, all the while this guy is growing up and being groomed (by somebody) for world domination.

So we have two competing "theories" of how Obama came to be President. One is pretty straight-forward, and maps closely to pretty much every President we've had.

The other 'multiplies entities' to a massive degree and involves cooperation, without any leaks, of two newspapers and several government agencies in at least two states, for decades.

The second theory makes extraordinary claims, yet produces virtually nothing in the way of even ordinary evidence, let alone the extraordinary evidence necessary to support an extraordinary claim.

I would LOVE it if Obama would obtain and release an original copy of his long form birth certificate.

I disagree. I think he has handled this just right. So far, no credible evidence has been presented to support the speculation. If Obama caves in to these tabloid-level conjectures, it would give credence to something that deserves none.

I also hope legislation passes that requires future candidates to prove their eligibility to a committee.

Totally agree. I was shocked to find out this was not already the case.

In other words, I think ANY of us could take 2 documents, scanned by two different computers, operators and scanners and then zoom in to the pixel level and find differences, too. In fact, it might be a very interesting experiment.

Actually, one person could take a document and scan it into a computer, then remove the document, replace it and scan it again on the same scanner and same computer and zoom in to the pixel level and find differences. There are too many uncontrollable variables in this operation to expect identical results twice in a row even on the same computer and scanner.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

3. Finally, he makes WAY too many assumptions and logic leaps. He makes a statement and then draws a conclusion without verifying the interim steps.

What, a bit like people here debunking certicates you mean?
First Orly's is debunked on fragile and mostly erroneous grounds.
Then we have this short form computer generated nonsense that says absolutely nothing, so people accept that.
Then we have illegal statements from Hawaiian officials and people accept that...not understanding the argument about long forms.
Then an Australian one appears and everyone shouts..'that's it then..it's over.' without even looking to see that it has been tampered with and is therefore a fake.
Then we have the man it belongs to making some vague assumption it is his genuine untampered with certificate by saying 'yeah, that's my address, and there's my dear old mum'...so everyone accepts this bunk.
Then we have some anonymous person presenting 4 photos, and everyone shouts 'that's it then, it's over.' without even looking to see that there are many oddities there too that may make them a fake.
Then we have a video from Lucas Smith and everyone shouts 'that's it then, it's over' without even be able to debunk it. Then they read WND with their usual poor reporting and erroneous assumptions and do not even look to see if it is real or fake.
All I know is that one day the truth will out. I am most afraid however, that the truth will be far too late to stop the imminent damage and destruction.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
The second theory makes extraordinary claims, yet produces virtually nothing in the way of even ordinary evidence, let alone the extraordinary evidence necessary to support an extraordinary claim.

Well-said and exactly my point. Thank you.

I disagree. I think he has handled this just right. So far, no credible evidence has been presented to support the speculation. If Obama caves in to these tabloid-level conjectures, it would give credence to something that deserves none.

I agree that he has handled it correctly. I wouldn't have been so forthcoming as he has, myself. But I think I would love to see him release it just to see what the birther movement would do next. It's a source of entertainment for me. And if, by some outlandish chance, it would put the conspiracy to rest, that would be nice, too.

But I wouldn't ask Obama to compromise his right to privacy any more than I would compromise mine. I think that's something important that so many, who want his complete life to be an open book, don't fully understand.

Originally posted by oneclickaway
What, a bit like people here debunking certicates you mean?

Yes. Just like that.

I have always taken the position that a serious attempt at a 100% verification OR debunking of a birth certificate can not happen over the Internet by amateurs, such as ourselves and 99.9% of the people out there, including "Polarik".

I have also stated that I don't know if Obama's certificate is valid, that I don't know where he was born and that I don't know if he's eligible or not. I only have my opinions and beliefs based on what I've seen. That's all any of us have.

I would love to see verifiable proof, but I still think there would be those who would start zooming in to the pixel level and finding "anomalies" that they would attribute to it being "Faked!". And the whole thing would start over again.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Here's a link to an article on Salon.com -- an interview with a female Israeli lawyer, no less:
www.salon.com...

Here's her blog:
www.orlytaitzesq.com...

Here's the US military not supporting the troops:
noiri.blogspot.com...

reply to post by vcwxvwligen


Yes, I've read a whole lot about the crazy dentist/realtor/lawyer. Orly Taitz. She's quite insane. I'm not sure what that has to do with Hawaiian birth certificates, but thanks.

The social security rumor is just the latest in a long line of false rumors. It rates right up there with the other wild and crazy rumors about Obama, like he took his oath of office using a Qur’an and that he's a "secret Muslim". This new one may actually top even those...

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


What makes her crazy?

It's just like someone trying to cheat the system to accuse others of crazy-talk.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
What makes her crazy?

Some of the reasons I think she's crazy are found in this article.

You do understand that this thread is about the stipulation that Hawaii has that people can get a birth certificate even if they're not born there, and how the certificate would list their actual place of birth, not Hawaii.

Hey, if Obama was going to fake a birth certificate, why wouldn't he fake the long form one???

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Scroll to the bottom. It says "Village Voice Media." The Village Voice is a post-modern "alternative" pro-Zionist weekly newspaper.

Maybe it's easier to fake the short-form one?

Some of the fakes have had the raised seal too. Just produce the long form B.C. and I will believe.