Creationists, what is your case for proving creationism?

reply to post by Mike_A


I am sorry this was not intended as an insult more like put your worried soul to rest. You seem to be searching for scientific proof and becoming frustrated I only meant to put you at ease not to shut you up, I am sorry to have come across the wrong way.

[edit spelling]

Originally posted by Mike_A
This is a topic for those creationists on here who believe that creationism is just as scientifically valid as evolution.

As per the title, without referring to the theory of evolution or any religious text, please can you set out your scientific hypothesis, along with the relevant supporting evidence, as to how life on Earth came to be?

Hypothesis: The Earth was made over a long period of time.
Evidence: The Earth was made in 90 seconds.
www.halos.com...
A speck of polonium in molten rock can be compared to an Alka-Seltzer dropped into a glass of water. The beginning of effervescence is equated to the moment that polonium atoms began to emit radiactive particles. In molten rock the traces of those radioactive particles would disappear as quickly as the Alka-Seltzer bubbles in water. But if the water were instantly frozen, the bubbles would be preserved. Likewise, polonium halos could have formed only if the rapidly "effervescing" specks of polonium had been instantly encased in solid rock. An exceedingly large number of polonium halos are embedded in granites around the world. Just as frozen Alka-Seltzer bubbles would be clear evidence of the quick-freezing of the water, so are these many polonium halos undeniable evidence that a sea of primordial matter quickly "froze" into solid granite. The occurrence of these polonium halos, then, distinctly implies that our earth was formed in a very short time, in complete harmony with the biblical record of creation.

Since the Earth was made in about 90 seconds, we can assume it was not made in a manner that conforms to the physical and energy laws of the universe. This would allow the use of the word "miracle" in describing the forming of the Earth: "A miracle is a perceptible interruption of the laws of nature..". en.wikipedia.org...

Miracles are usually associated with a supernatural agent:

"such that can be attempted to be explained by divine intervention"
en.wikipedia.org...

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume a supernatural interruption in the laws of nature occurred to create the Earth based on the scientific evidence shown at www.halos.com....

Conclusion: In the beginning, God created ...the Earth...

Would it be a reasonable conclusion that the same God created the life on the Earth?


[edit on 1-9-2009 by Jim Scott]

reply to post by Jim Scott


Let's say there is no debating the halos. It's established as new thought that the earth was formed in 90 seconds.

It still shows no evidence of a creator.

First, let's look at the language you have to use to make this solid connection - "we can assume; this would allow the use of; are usually associated with; can be attempted to be explained by; it is reasonable to assume" . . . Instead of using the word conclusion at the end, you should have said "Inference" Quite a lot of streching has to be done.

Beyond that, I could just as easily explain it this way. At the creation of the universe, masses of heavy elements and matter gravitated to each other. As these swirling clouds of matter came together, their combined gravitational pull and the extreme cold of interstellar space caused them to coalesce in about 90 seconds. Over time, these rouge plants found homes amongst the immense gravitational pull of nearby stars.

Neither of us would be closer to the truth, because neither of us would have a shread of evidence. However, I can explain it in a way that doesn't require someone to imagine supernatural forces and assume miracles. Maybe Unicron chewed up a bunch of asteroids and comets, spit them all out . . . then cooled them with his freeze ray eyes?

However, all that is moot as halos are a hypothesis, at best. When halos have the evidence and observation behind them to constitue a theory, then you can postulate on their raison d'etre.

But, at least you try to fulfil the OP and I enjoyed your post.


EDIT - used minutes, instead of seconds

[edit on 9/1/09 by solomons path]

Originally posted by mblahnikluver
Well for me the way I have always looked at the two is that everything was created and then evolved. I dont know how to explain this or why but this is how I see things. I mean doesnt something have to be created first to evolve? Like I said it's just my own opinion and I have nothing to back it up, it's just my theory.
S&F

'hypothesis' should have been the word you used not 'theory', then again, neither would be correct for such an answer

One word in defence of a intelligent creator (God, extraterrestrial, or what ever you want to call it .......Mathematics.

Read - "A Beginner's Guide to Constructing the Universe: Mathematical Archetypes of Nature, Art, and Science by Michael S. Schneider"

Fibonacci

Google "Leonardo da Vinci"

Everything we as humans create involves mathematics. Are we the only life form in the universe that uses mathematics to create?

Originally posted by Jim Scott

Originally posted by Mike_A
This is a topic for those creationists on here who believe that creationism is just as scientifically valid as evolution.

As per the title, without referring to the theory of evolution or any religious text, please can you set out your scientific hypothesis, along with the relevant supporting evidence, as to how life on Earth came to be?

Hypothesis: The Earth was made over a long period of time.
Evidence: The Earth was made in 90 seconds.
www.halos.com...
A speck of polonium in molten rock can be compared to an Alka-Seltzer dropped into a glass of water. The beginning of effervescence is equated to the moment that polonium atoms began to emit radiactive particles. In molten rock the traces of those radioactive particles would disappear as quickly as the Alka-Seltzer bubbles in water. But if the water were instantly frozen, the bubbles would be preserved. Likewise, polonium halos could have formed only if the rapidly "effervescing" specks of polonium had been instantly encased in solid rock. An exceedingly large number of polonium halos are embedded in granites around the world. Just as frozen Alka-Seltzer bubbles would be clear evidence of the quick-freezing of the water, so are these many polonium halos undeniable evidence that a sea of primordial matter quickly "froze" into solid granite. The occurrence of these polonium halos, then, distinctly implies that our earth was formed in a very short time, in complete harmony with the biblical record of creation.

Since the Earth was made in about 90 seconds, we can assume it was not made in a manner that conforms to the physical and energy laws of the universe. This would allow the use of the word "miracle" in describing the forming of the Earth: "A miracle is a perceptible interruption of the laws of nature..". en.wikipedia.org...

Miracles are usually associated with a supernatural agent:

"such that can be attempted to be explained by divine intervention"
en.wikipedia.org...

Therefore, it is reasonable to assume a supernatural interruption in the laws of nature occurred to create the Earth based on the scientific evidence shown at www.halos.com....

Conclusion: In the beginning, God created ...the Earth...

Would it be a reasonable conclusion that the same God created the life on the Earth?


[edit on 1-9-2009 by Jim Scott]

Just not true!
www.talkorigins.org...

Lets make some things clear.
Evolution is NOT about the origin of life. Its about the development of life after its appearance. Yes, we dont know if the first simple life appeared through abiogenesis or som other means, but it doesnt disprove evolution, which is proven by mopuntains of evidence. And even if you disprove evolution (which you didnt) it wouldnt be proof of creationism.

The same applies to big bang. It says nothing about the original first cause that sparkled universe into existence. Its about the development of it after that cause. So if you say we dont know what was the first cause, it doesnt disprove big bang, which is also supported by evidence.

emporium.turnpike.net...

And whats this? Every point on this website can be easily refuted by basic science, wiki and common sense... blatant creationist propaganda, NOT science... If this is an example of creation science, I am persuaded that creation shouldnt be taught in science class...

Even if the universe was created by a supreme being, there's no reason to say this supreme being is your god, or his god, or anybody's god.

Originally posted by Syrus Magistus
Even if the universe was created by a supreme being, there's no reason to say this supreme being is your god, or his god, or anybody's god.

Completely agree!


Personally, I lean towards the universe not being created by ay God that we worship. I dont have any solid reason for thinking that, just that the other option doesnt seem as threatening. Im sure this isnt the case for the majority of religious people, but Ive just got a '*sticks fingers in ears* - lalalala' type impression from a lot of people when someone tries to challenge their beliefs.

End of the day though, I dont see why creationism and evolution cant both exist. We really dont know either way so there's not really any point in having the attitude of it has to be one or the other.

To those in support of creationism you'll notice that what I stated earlier is exactly what's happening and has been happening. Which is no matter what you, the creationist present as evidence, it will always be meet with scorn because the evolutionist does not hold to anything supernatural therefore all things have a natural cause and can be explained through empirical means......if not now then at some point in time.

Likewise the creationist views the very same evidence but claims it is of God.

This will never change until ones presuppositions change. Truth though, being Absolute, can only allow for one view to be valid.

reply to post by celticdragon23


weak.

We dont know for sure what created us and we never will atleast until we die there has to be a source to everything stars dont just blow up and up pop some humans we was put here for a reason how i see it...read the bible hes coming soon

reply to post by solomons path

Ok if some matter and elements came together whatever u said wtf created the matter and elements and what was before that and etc...there is a SOURCE u all will find out one day he wont show anybody mercy better bow and ask for forgiveness

reply to post by Mike_A


Creationism


The nature of God is an entity that is infinite, therefore, always has and always been and never has not been. God has always existed, God cannot fit into the restraints of the space and time God created in the universe. To me that is the only way to explain it, and I think its something to ponder upon.

One of the facts that proved to me that there is no doubt of a creator is Fibonacci numbers and the Golden Ratio (check it out on you tube), it is as though God left fingerprints on everything God created/touched ,just like how us humans leave our fingerprints on everything we touch. This universe definitely has a designer.

Another thing about the organization of the universe is that if any one of the countless constants in the universe were to fluctuate by a number that is comparable to a 6 inch segement on a ruler spanning the entire universe's diameter, life on earth would be impossible to exist among other things such as orbits and solar systems etc.

If creation is true, then there is a God and if there is a God there must certainly be an opposing force to balance the energy, check out Hermetic Teaching and the three initiates/alchemy- thats where the satanic elite come into play where they pray and worship and offer sick sacrifices to these 'gods', better known as wolves in sheeps clothing. Think bohemian grove, and the child sex ring in washington (check out on youtube). People will say, well, if there is a God then why would he cause such suffering and sadistic rituals to take place here? The answer is quite frankly that this life is a test, and we're all taking it no exceptions, so in order to be tested this life has been designed in such a way that everything is energy and we know that there is positive and negative right? Well the more positive you attract the more positve you will encounter (thoughts= frequency like the secret). This makes sense in a creationism by God view because it tells us that we are here to accumulate- hopefully- as much positive (not material) as possible and be conscience of our decisions and always try to make the right choice. When I say positive, I mean, how you treat people, helping, making the right choices, not hurting people etc. Material things have nothing to do with anything. We come to this earth naked, we leave naked. The dark pagan egyptians seemed to think they could enjoy their riches and boats and what not in the after life, among other civilizations, but I highly doubt that view to be true.

If there is a God that is all knowing, all powerful, merciful and compassionate, He would want us to accumulate as much good as possible. Dont you think the people on this earth that live now and lived before that were truly evil people that created this materialistic world where a child dies every few seconds of hunger, are going to suffer themselves once they die?

More evidence? There is now, in 2009, countless academic publications in the medical and scientific fields dealing with near death experiences where it is now for certain that when we as humans die, our conscienceness survives our physical bodies and that we are definitely going somewhere after this life.


These are signs of a Creator and it is up to your souls living here to find the sincerity in it and realize that God will not reveal himself to us, only leave signs for us to ponder upon using the brains that he gave us. Creationism is the only intelligent argument for how we got here. We just got to figure out why...


Peace and Blessings to All

Originally posted by Evanzsayz
reply to post by solomons path

 

Ok if some matter and elements came together whatever u said wtf created the matter and elements and what was before that and etc...there is a SOURCE u all will find out one day he wont show anybody mercy better bow and ask for forgiveness

I was responding to the hypothesis presented . . . while interesting it doesn't prove a creator any more than words in a book do. I dont' have to show how the elements came to be, just the infinite other possiblities of a 90 second earth formation. All have the same amount of proof = 0.

I thank you for your concern, but your's isn't the first faith to preach a rapture. And this isn't the first generation since it's formation that believed "the end is nigh". I'll base my beliefs on everthing that I've seen and learned . . . the sun will come up tomorrow, bet your bottom dollar. And when I die, my body will return to the earth and my energy will return to the universe.

reply to post by Mike_A


It does not matter when it comes to creationism. The religious aspect is full of holes and excuses. Sometimes downright laughable.

With that said, Creation did happen. Just not in the way religions teach.

Evolution also does happen, just not precisely in the way science teaches.

These questions are already answered. Most of you already know this.

Consider the equation logically, what makes the most sense?

I know the answer, but do you really want to? First there is no god in the biblical sence but there is a supreme being. You must determint the difference between what a god is and the supreme being is.

Can you do this?

God - is a term used by humans to describe beings of higher intelligence or at most having advanced technology.

The supreme being lets call it Creation, is the source of all things. An energy field that developed consciousness long ago and then had to learn through experimentation what it was and what it could do. And no, at first it was not scientific experimentation. No more than a baby that plays with blocks finds that they can be stacked.

Do you want the answer to this question? It is available and it comes from a far older source than humanity. It comes from off world sources who have been asking this question a lot longer than man has been walking this world.

Place your self into this situation:

You are infinite energy who has just become self aware, "I think therefore I am" which would be more like "Huh?". Then take that thought and evolve from there.

Now I will add a little clue. Each and every spirit or being starts out the same way, having to learn on its own through the stages of awareness until it evolves spiritually into sentience. Unlike Creation we get to skip 480 billion years of experimentation and we have assistance of others to speed up our voyage of discovery.

It has been estimated that it took creation 480 billion years to reach the point of the big bang, (theory) and about 17 billion years to get to the point where humanity finds itself now.

Now consider youself as an energy being (which you are, and science is just begining to agree) and consider how long it would take you with the intelligence of a newborn and no source of knowledge to draw from to get to the point in the universe we find ourselves now.

What steps would you have to go through to get here?

Please consider this and then ask intelligent questions. What is an intelligent question? How about one whose answer is appropriate for ten thousand years.

Chewbit Wing
Namaste!

Tell me, what is the purpose of our existence? My purpose is to know the creator, which i'm gladly to announce i do. He is my best friend, my father and he loves me. He sent his son to redeem me with his death for my crime of sin. I talk to him daily and i hear his voice in my heart and he hears me. He answers my prayers and I commune with him constantly. He has given me authority over the wicked fallen one, the ruler over darkness of this world. He has redeemed me from the curse of the law christ being made a curse for me. sickness or disease does not enter my body because I am not of this world and does not have power over me.

Sound crazy to you? yes, i'm sure it does but, its the truth. Just like i think its crazy that people do not believe there is a God. My God calls them Fools. What do you want? A sign? do you want God to come down from heaven to Earth and present himself to prove mankind he exists? he did that already and they still don't believe. His workmanship is evident in nature. The beauty of a flower, the colorfully painted sky and rainbow. The balance of nature and ecosystem. The earth purposely placed and tilted and rotated in the precise direction and speed. Science! what is Science? The study of creation and all its knowledge. It points to a Living God who loves us. Choose him and you choose life. Reject him and you condemn yourself to death for your crime.



Keeper

I've read this entire thread with an open mind. The entire time I could not believe how narrow minded people can be. The OP asks a simple question: Provide evidence to scientifically credit creationism; leave discussion of religion and evolution at the door. The last part is important because religion, and evolution have nothing to do with the validity of creationism. What I'm finding is that most people are ignoring the OP, and using this thread to post religious beliefs, and trying to tear down evolution.

I really really thought that this line of conversation (religion, and kicks to evolution) would be the last thing I'd see in here. There are a lot of smart people on ATS, and I figured most people would steer clear of something OP specifically asked us to avoid. I was really hoping to come into this potentially thought provoking topic and see some great discussion. Instead I see a bunch of god-fearing sheep reciting scripture and poking holes in Evolution.

Poke holes all you want, the Theory of Evolution isn't "just a theory". In science a theory is actually better then a "fact". A fact is one piece of a theory; a theory is the combination of the observable and tested facts. I'm not going to try and validate Evolution for everyone, because as a scientific theory, it is already valid. Choose to ignore it if you wish, but at least now, we all know what a theory is.

Religion is obviously the motor of creationism, or ID. We don't have to ignore that, but to bring in quotes from the bible, and writing about "faith", this does not give credit to creationism. Faith - blind belief actually hurts creationism, because the very definition of "faith" is an abomination on science, logic, and reasoning.

So here we are on page 11, no testable evidence is present that to at least help creationism out. This was my original assumption after reading the original post, however I figure there would at least be a few good attempts to discuss this. I was wrong. I hope we all know about the Dover school trial. Intelligent Design was ruled out of the class room. Why? The same reason as we see in this post. No evidence. Just a bunch of upset Christians, and spinning their agenda. I could get into dis-crediting ID/creationism, but that isn't what this is about either. I also don't have all day.

QUESTION: does the OP have a specific purpose for asking this question?

Just curious.

1. For personal information.
2. A school project.
3. A work project.
4. To see if people can follow directions
5. _______________(fill in the blank).

So Keeper . . . I guess that means your conceding you can't come up with a testable hypothesis then?

Originally posted by Keeper of Kheb
Tell me, what is the purpose of our existence? My purpose is to know the creator, which i'm gladly to announce i do. He is my best friend, my father and he loves me. He sent his son to redeem me with his death for my crime of sin. I talk to him daily and i hear his voice in my heart and he hears me. He answers my prayers and I commune with him constantly. He has given me authority over the wicked fallen one, the ruler over darkness of this world. He has redeemed me from the curse of the law christ being made a curse for me. sickness or disease does not enter my body because I am not of this world and does not have power over me.

Sound crazy to you? yes, i'm sure it does but, its the truth. Just like i think its crazy that people do not believe there is a God. My God calls them Fools. What do you want? A sign? do you want God to come down from heaven to Earth and present himself to prove mankind he exists? he did that already and they still don't believe. His workmanship is evident in nature. The beauty of a flower, the colorfully painted sky and rainbow. The balance of nature and ecosystem. The earth purposely placed and tilted and rotated in the precise direction and speed. Science! what is Science? The study of creation and all its knowledge. It points to a Living God who loves us. Choose him and you choose life. Reject him and you condemn yourself to death for your crime.



Keeper

Actually none of it is truth . . . it's called opinion.

1 a : a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b : approval, esteem
2 a : belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b : a generally held view
3 a : a formal expression of judgment or advice by an expert b : the formal expression (as by a judge, court, or referee) of the legal reasons and principles upon which a legal decision is based

Now conviction is a synonym for opinion . . . so, to be lenient, I'll give you conviction. However, that is still not the "truth" because it is not true to all people. If you were born in India, you'd probably extol the virtues of Shiva. If you were a viking . . . Odin.

But thank you for calling myself (and those of like mind) a fool and condemning me to "death for our crime". It's attitudes like yours that make "hate crime" laws so absurd. The followers of any religion can claim such absurd notions, but if I was to rally against your religion . . . I'm persecuting you or a bigot or guilty of a hate crime.

I openly call your god a fool . . . and challenge him to a dual. If he doesn't meet me at the park (he's omnipotent, so he should know which one) at noon tomorrow . . . he's not only a fool, but a coward as well.