Majic Of The Wilderness.

You're associating humans = food.
Thats a deadly combination for humans that run into a bear that no lon ger has a natural fear to them

You're basically a murderer in the making

Originally posted by Rustbelt
Guys.....

If you haven't seen it already, watch Grizzly Man. Your luck WILL run out!

Your hearts in the right place but these are wild animals and I would hate to see something bad happen to ya.

Peace and safety.

These are not Grizzlies, they are BLACK bears and there is a huge difference!!!

nice thread indeed.

Hunting is not a sport. In a sport, both sides should know they're in the game.

~ Paul Rodriguez

I once petted a wild bull ox who was with company and offspring, there was no fence.

I keep saying myself it was because my starsign is Taurus

I visit the woods a lot, and I interact with wild animals who live there regularly. When I come along, some individuals flee, some linger, and some approach. If there is such a thing in wild animals as "natural fear," then there is also such a thing as "natural curiosity," and even occasionally an impulse to cooperate across species lines.

Although I think some of the posts here exaggerate the danger, nevertheless, I would be reluctant to habituate wild animals to human beings, or to encourage dependence on human handouts. I would never use food as bait to encourage any wild animal to linger. I would never lure animals out of their woods into human settlements.

It is great that so far all has gone well in the specific place of the OP. I respect that the people involved know their local situation, and I accept their judgment about what will work there. But I don't think it would work many other places. It is just too easy for something to go wrong.

And there is also an aesthetic dimension. I value the wildness of a wild animal. If I wanted to interact with a domesticated animal, then I could rescue a dog from the pound.

Originally posted by mnmcandiez
You're associating humans = food.
Thats a deadly combination for humans that run into a bear that no lon ger has a natural fear to them

You're basically a murderer in the making

Thats going a bit far don't you think? How does this equate to the OP being a "murderer in the making"?

I can appreciate the risks involved when it comes to feeding wild animals, so i'm not saying theres no danger here. Although very different, i live in a small forest village in the UK where horses, donkeys, cows and pigs roam free at will through the forests and villages.

Tourists are the worst for it, they feed them, then moan when they get bitten or kicked senseless. I see it happen every summer.

Maybe i misread your post, in which case i apoligise in advance.

CX.

Bears Will Be Bears

"Majic Of The Wilderness"? My ears are burning.

Although the title is what caught my eye, I do have some opinions on the topic and they could be summarized as: be careful!

It's somewhat natural for humans to anthropomorphize other animals and want to commune with them, and from a human perspective bears are cute, but the collective wisdom of millions of years of evolution teaches us that nice guys don't end up on the top of the food chain.

For as much as romantics love to idealize it, Nature is and ever shall be utterly brutal at its core.

There isn't a species alive on this planet today that isn't in competition with other species, and the only species alive on this planet today are those that compete successfully. From amoebas to zebras, the rules are the same: adapt or perish.

The irony of cases like this one is that it stands out precisely because it is so unique. That very fact is implied in the way the tale is told.

Happy endings are not typical for bear-feeding stories, and it is not at all clear that this one will ultimately turn out any differently. Sooner or later, something bad is likely to happen. It's just a matter of time.

Why would I say that with such confidence? Because the track record is so abysmal.

Wikipedia: List of fatal bear attacks in North America

Consider the most recent entry, just three weeks old:

Ouray, Colorado. Munson had been feeding bears for ten years, though repeatedly warned by wildlife officials. A small bear was wounded in a fight with a larger bear. Munson had been feeding the smaller bear. A larger, older bear came up to her house, where she had enclosed the back porch with a wire fence. She was attempting to scare away the older bear, when it clubbed her through the screened porch, dragged her off, and killed her. Wildlife officials ended up killing two bears as a result of this incident.

Granted, fatal bear attacks are relatively rare, but the list is admittedly not complete and only includes fatal bear attacks. There are thousands upon thousands more cases where bear attacks have left people seriously injured or permanently disabled.

Long ago, during my first year in Alaska, two people were attacked by black bears in two separate incidents within thirty miles of where I lived. Both survived, but both were horribly injured. One of them literally had his face eaten off (n.b. playing dead will not save you), and had to undergo years of skin grafts and reconstructive surgery. There were also many, many accounts of bears attacking livestock and pets.

Bears should be treated with the caution and respect such large predators deserve. They are solitary, opportunistic feeders and don't tend to congregate in groups unless something unusual is going on. When something unusual is going on, any small spark can set off a potentially deadly clash between these incredibly powerful animals.

My advice: Please don't feed the bears -- whether willingly or unwillingly. :shk:

Alright mate - just a quick one to say that I read the original post but I don't have time to read the whole thread. I really enjoyed the video of feeding the bear but please be careful!

There was a program on here a few years ago about a 'Bear Guy' who I suspect you've heard of (he was American) - he fed bears in his back garden for 20 years or something and was on perfectly good terms with them but one day a bear killed him.

So I'm just saying, watch your ass

Awesome thread. When you say your neighbours made a pact never to harm a living creature, does that mean that they're vegetarians?

I really do, in my gut, believe that in our distant past, mankind co-existed with wild animals in this way. There was a greater respect for creatures back then and I suspect sights like this would have been more common than they are now.

Another nice thread Sancho!
Great video too, very interesting.

I am kind of on the fence with this one though.

I agree that it's an amazing thing, to be able to see these wild creatures all come together in peace, interacting with man, in safety etc. and I would love to see it

But I can also see that it's not entirely natural, and I do have some slight concerns for the long term safety of the neighbours and the bears.

On balance, I'd MUCH rather see this kind of interaction than that of the "sport" hunters mentioned earlier, so good luck to them.

G

Oh - A quick P.S. To all of the posters out there...

There = At, to, or in that place (e.g. Sit over there)
Their = Belonging to, or associated with them. (e.g. That's their car)
They're = is Simply an abbreviation of "They are" (e.g. They're here)

Sample sentence showing all three... "They're sitting in their car, over there."

confusing isn't it?

Great video and thread.

Really I think what your friends are doing is just wonderful! It is their property and it is their business. I just hope the stupid Game Wardens don't bother them.

When I was a kid my uncle and dad were deer hunting, something I always hated, and killed a mother and her baby was very young. They brought the baby back to the farm and fed her and took wonderful care of her. She was as friendly and sweet as the horses. The plan was to keep her until she got bigger and release her after hunting season. THAT WAS THE PLAN. Some so called do gooder reported then to the game warden who got some court order to release her, the first day of deer season. It was a sad day as she had no fear of humans. Stupid game warden just could not give them a few weeks until the season was over.

I know one thing, that cabin looks like my dream home. That is really my dream to live out in the wilderness in a lovely rustic cabin and leave the city and most people behind.

reply to post by metaldemon2000

Metal, sorry I didn't mean to give the impression that we actually feed the deer by hand. We just throw the corn out in heaps at the edge of our woods & watch from inside the house as all the deer come out. I had to grow up looking at 3 deer heads on my parents living room wall until I was 18. I don't want to experience such a thing ever again!! If we can keep the deer close to home, I only hope that will be less people that see them and want to shoot them. I too have grown up in the "sticks" my whole life & I would never want to live anywhere else. Across the way from where we live the deer are being driven out by buildings going up. 2 new deer showed up a few days ago and they looked so skinny I was more then glad to see them come and feed. I make sure I feed the birds too, but that"s it as far as feeding our local wildlife.

Thanks Sancho it's nice to see some attention payed to the critters. The urban interface is growing all the time and I hope the wildlife doesn't lose out completely. At any rate a good read and video for the first thing this am. Thanks again! P.S I like your old avatar

Well, as much as I love wildlife, the status quo is animals should feed themselves, as nature intended, or it gets out of balance. In northern PA, people feeding deer was a very real and bad issue. During the winter months, MANY more died out, because of the feeding during the spring.

In Colorado, just a week and a half or so ago, and elderly lady was killed by a bear (and was being eaten by a bear when found):

www.denverpost.com...

Right now, the rangers in the mountains are having real issues trying to keep the bears under control. They are now calling the police and trying to get help, as they get from 25 to 30 calls a NIGHT about bears in people's yards, etc. Why are they there? Because people feed them, and they know they can get food there.

I absolutely love wildlife, but there is a good reason you should not feed the animals.

edit to add: I AM very disturbed by how humans just impede on the lands animals have lived for thousands of years. Not caring how they are displaced, as we build more condos every week. It disgusts me to be a "fellow human" who apparently don't care what we displace as we move into new areas. No care or thought is given to where these animals should or will go. It's very sad.

[edit on 29-8-2009 by fleabit]

reply to post by sanchoearlyjones

Yes, rules of Nature apply here. I can see many arguments toward it being wrong. However, To see how the USFS auctions multi sections(640 acres, or 1 sq.mile) of land off to the forest companies, or on the forest land itself; the forest companies will come in, and with days have what used to be a dense forest clear cut down to stumps.

an excellent point - really

I am all for the natural balance of nature - and MOST of the time - a non-interference, hands off approach

but you're absolutely right - faced with the completely unnatural clearing and destruction of habitat - the approach needs to be adjusted

also, this situation has evolved - it's been going on for years now

it's not really a true aberration any more

reply to post by metaldemon2000

THink they dont do this? Ask the many thousands of people who have been attacked at a provincial park, or even in their yards. Its not that they intend to hurt you physically, its just that you are an obstacle that needs to be removed. And they will do it when they are desperate.

ordinarily I wouldn't just agree with you - I would absolutely agree with you

but this situation is different

first - it's too late now - this is the way it is and has been for a while

the real problem comes (as others have pointed out) if and when the feeding stops

but this isn't something that the visiting public is involved in - doesn't mean it's not risky - but it isn't the same thing as a family of four on a road trip from New Jersey visiting Yellowstone and trying to feed the cute bear

Ive lived in the sticks my entire life and if its one thing you just dont do is feed the damn bears. Its sad that because of modern times that we are slowly pushing them over the edge and have reduced them to eating our trash and scavenging our neighborhoods but this wasnt always the case.

I grew up in the sticks myself

never once saw a bear (though I think me and my dogs ran into one in the middle of the night once - but it was too dark for me to see - just going by the reaction of the dogs)

but, I repeat - never once saw one

never even had any problems with them getting into the trash

now they're everywhere - because of exactly what you said - they have no territory

they're a nuisance and a danger - whether we feed them or not

this particular situation is fascinating - and fun - but not ideal

we're reaching a point where the ideal situation isn't as possible as it used to be - and I don't know what to say about that

in the next few decades I think we're going to have to change our ways of thinking, and I'm afraid it's not going to be pleasant

either development is going to have to be restricted and controlled (and we all know that's not going to happen)

or - the wildlife is going to have to go

not pretty

So where in Montana are you? In the Seeley Lake area?

First let me say this, I am a hunter and I have lived in black bear territory all my life. I don't hunt them because I don't like how they taste. However, if the population got out of control and disease threatened to wipe them out, I would take one out and consume it. I eat only wild game meat. I don't buy store bought meat, you don't know what you're getting even with organic meats. We prepare the meat and preserve it to eat year round. Even though I am a meat hunter, I still like to kill older game, mostly because the older, bigger game are the ones who are closer to death than the younger ones. I majored in wildlife biology for years and know it's essential for people to hunt in areas with few natural predators. Since the beginning of time animal populations have been kept in check by hunters. If all hunting stopped now, the few natural predators left would not be enough to keep animal populations in check. The result could be devestating to those species. It could cause endangerment and even extinction just like over-hunting could.

Feeding bears is the worst idea ever. The bears become dependent on you for food. When you are unable to feed the bears anymore, they will search out other people for food aggresively. They will lose their natural insticts for finding their own food. Also, when you bring so many bears in one area, there is a higher chance that they will catch a debilitating disease. All these factors put the bear in danger as well as innocent humans. Let the bears do what nature intended and find their own food. They are also allowing them to be hunted easier on the neighboring properties. In short, they are destroying the animals they love.

Originally posted by Spiramirabilis
reply to post by sanchoearlyjones

 

Yes, rules of Nature apply here. I can see many arguments toward it being wrong. However, To see how the USFS auctions multi sections(640 acres, or 1 sq.mile) of land off to the forest companies, or on the forest land itself; the forest companies will come in, and with days have what used to be a dense forest clear cut down to stumps.

an excellent point - really

I am all for the natural balance of nature - and MOST of the time - a non-interference, hands off approach

but you're absolutely right - faced with the completely unnatural clearing and destruction of habitat - the approach needs to be adjusted

also, this situation has evolved - it's been going on for years now

it's not really a true aberration any more

Yes, the area I live in is logged quite a bit, but what most people don't understand is that after logging these companies have to replant vegetation and trees. The fresh, young growth actually helps the local wildlife and provides thick cover and food. This is the way 99 percent of logging works now.

reply to post by thomasc83

If all hunting stopped now, the few natural predators left would not be enough to keep animal populations in check. The result could be devestating to those species. It could cause endangerment and even extinction just like over-hunting could.

I just gave you a star - because I agree with you

but I want to point out one thing - the part about if the hunting stopped -

when do we finally acknowledge either that hunting is a part of the natural balance - or that it isn't?

if you took it away - nature would correct itself - eventually

but it would balance itself according to the existing conditions - not the ideal conditions we have in our heads - the existing conditions

the natural world can appear to be a pretty harsh place from our point of view - but the things that disappear would disappear - naturally

even if it's a direct result of our interference - pro or con

so - hunting then is not any more natural than feeding the bears in my view - especially if you look at it as a method of maintenance and control

it is still something that is being decided and carried out by us - that wouldn't happen if you removed us from the equation

I'm going to say something unpopular - but it needs to be said - and I know you'll understand this

I actually support hunting in a crisis of over population

for one reason and one reason only - it's usually a direct result of human involvement - and the suffering of the wildlife that results is far more cruel than being shot

disease, starvation and injury are all slow, painful horrible ways to die

anyone who has ever seen a deer too weak to get itself out of a snowbank will understand what I'm saying

people tend to have this idea that in nature - things just lie down and go to sleep when they die - because we can't see it - and it doesn't involve us

the point I really want to make is this - our relationship with nature is changing - we can argue about it all we want - but it's done

it's never going to go back to the pristine ideal we hold in our heads - unless you remove us

it's why this situation doesn't bother me so much

12 years without any problems - it's a clue to the nature of this arrangement

it could change of course - but I think everyone is already aware of that

I apologize for bringing down the mood




[edit on 8/29/2009 by Spiramirabilis]

I haven't read the entire post but im just gonna be a typical girl and say...
Awwwww that was so cute! I would so wanna hug the cute bear! It would be so nice if all the animals all over the world would be able to live so freely with humans around them without being worried about being killed for meat, skin,nails,teeth. Thank you for sharing the video and the story