Aethism (oh yay)

Right on!

I believe that way too. I don't believe in all these religions and their restrictions and some human deprivation, but I think there might be kind of higher powers.

These "coincidences", y'know, like being in the right place at the right time to answer a longing question you have, could have been set up by a higher power to help you realize something important.

Stuff like de ja vu could play a card in this too.

Originally posted by Ichabod
So, that's my beef with atheists. In some sense, they seem to be hypocrites also, holding others to a standard that they themselves would not bear. Because while they readily admit their disregard for God and some even espouse (but don't live) the lifestyle I'm suggesting they should live, none of them do more than egg others on to join them.

I don't disregard God. How I can I disregard something that I don't believe exists? And I certainly don't egg others on to believe in anything. As I said before, I have many Christian friends and they don't push their beliefs onto me either. We actually all live very similar lives with very similar morals, the only difference is that I am not religious. Funny thing is many of them are having sex before marriage - but that's their choice I guess.

Do you even READ the posts from Atheists here? You speak in a superior tone which irks me. You call us irrational? I thought this thread was to understand how we view life, not to name call.

reply to post by joehayner

but only the possibility of there being a god.

You're an agnostic.

"Atheism" is the belief that God doesn't exist.

God doesn't believe in atheists.

reply to post by Byrd



Nice balanced reply


moocowman

The more things change, the more they stay the same

Originally posted by kacou
No one is narrow mind here, we only try to define what is the core of been atheist.
To be atheist is to believe that is no place for God, spirituality, thoughts over matter, in the real world of hard matter. The only things left are your attitude to interact with the world around you.
Atheist goes behind good and evil and like any philosophy that tries to absolute its belief, it shows a narrow mind and cul-de-sac kind of view.

Please. You are obviously not an atheist, so keep your misinformed babblings to yourself.

Atheism is a position on one concept, and one concept alone. That of 'theos'. Atheists are godless. That is all. They could believe in all kinds of stuff that have nada to do with gods.

Spirituality? Why not? Doesn't need to have anything to do with the existence or not of god.

Thoughts over matter? Why not? Nothing to do with god.

Again, in the hopes it might stick, atheism is about one concept. God and a non-belief/disbelief in this concept. That's it. You could believe in ghosts and ghoulies, an afterlife, and magically spoon-bending minds, and still be an atheist.

Most I know don't, mind. But you are making a category error.

reply to post by swinggal


I presented an opinion about your belief system related to the topic and we're in the board on religious conspiracies. The mod can shut me off anytime but I don't think that constitutes a 'superior' tone. You can read in whatever you like, but my observation stands. Or was it the chiding at the end that bugs you? I think it's pretty funny: two atheists sitting around at their postal jobs and one says, "Hey, what do we do now that God is out of the picture, which commandment do we break first?" and the other says, "You go break the biggest one while I get back to stamping and keep my job." Now, that's a world view without impact.

To me, atheists don't practice what they preach. They believe in no God, that's all very fine. That belief should drive behavior like every other belief of every other person and my observation is that their belief puts a premium on the amount of time they have remaining on this planet. Why aren't practicing atheists acting like it?

Is this not really a belief system? How would we define one? Shouldn't it have impact on our behavior other than just telling everyone - we're not like THOSE guys. Anyone else feelin' me on this?

Now, back to that great cartoon of yours, what are you going to do with the next 41.5 million minutes (roughly) you have? Chase whaling boats for Greenpeace? Why? How does that optimize your personal objective function?

(Before my nature loving friends attack me for such slander, for the record, I love the creation on this planet and more people should be stopping the wholesale brutality leveled against it. I do my part in my little corner of the world.)

Originally posted by swinggal

I have many Christian friends and they don't push their beliefs onto me either. We actually all live very similar lives with very similar morals, the only difference is that I am not religious. Funny thing is many of them are having sex before marriage - but that's their choice I guess.

I want to apologize to you for not addressing this. I was guilty of enjoying making the lesser points but you've made a great observation. So, I'm sorry for not reading carefully and thinking more before typing.

Your observation about these people having pre-marital sex while claiming to be Christians demonstrates their hypocrisy. It's good they don't force their beliefs on you, they'd be laughed to scorn. If they are Christians, they should be listening to the holy spirit, be convicted of their sins, and not give others reasons to blaspheme God. I don't mean to say that Christians are supposed to be perfect. I know I am not, but when I do sin, I feel convicted about it and motivated to try harder to stop sinning. This was not the case before I became a Christian and it's not because I think this helps me get into heaven. It's because I love Jesus for what he did for us. How often is someone willing to die for a good man, let alone a wretched man like myself, so that I might live?

People are supposed to be 'new creations' when they accept Christ and these old sins are supposed to start melting away. Sadly, there are many pretenders claiming Christianity as their faith for many reasons. Maybe that is the case with your friends.

You should be commended for your moral stance. It's great that you don't engage in immoral behavior and it should shame your so-called Christian friends that they do while at the same time claiming the free gift of Christ for salvation. Hopefully, they will turn away from their sinning and start obeying Jesus.

If we love Jesus, we obey him.

reply to post by melatonin


I think I didn’t make any mistake in categorizing this issue of atheism.
Plain and simple atheist believe in matter before thoughts, therefore a belief in a mechanical universe where is maybe places for ghost and all sort of phenomenon but no place at all for an initial thought source of origin.
Kacou.
Ps. please do not assume that one is misinformed as one try to learn as it go, and surely you will be a fail teacher in the realm of absolute. And do not ask people to keep they thoughts to themselves as you are first to propagate your relative knowledge. Thank you.

Originally posted by melatonin
The more things change, the more they stay the same

Originally posted by kacou
No one is narrow mind here, we only try to define what is the core of been atheist.
To be atheist is to believe that is no place for God, spirituality, thoughts over matter, in the real world of hard matter. The only things left are your attitude to interact with the world around you.
Atheist goes behind good and evil and like any philosophy that tries to absolute its belief, it shows a narrow mind and cul-de-sac kind of view.

Please. You are obviously not an atheist, so keep your misinformed babblings to yourself.

Atheism is a position on one concept, and one concept alone. That of 'theos'. Atheists are godless. That is all. They could believe in all kinds of stuff that have nada to do with gods.

Spirituality? Why not? Doesn't need to have anything to do with the existence or not of god.

Thoughts over matter? Why not? Nothing to do with god.

Again, in the hopes it might stick, atheism is about one concept. God and a non-belief/disbelief in this concept. That's it. You could believe in ghosts and ghoulies, an afterlife, and magically spoon-bending minds, and still be an atheist.

Most I know don't, mind. But you are making a category error.

This is exactly where I am coming from.

So, now you are judging me for being an environmentalist? If you believe that 'god' created the precious world we have then you should be proactively looking after his 'gift' whenever you can, which is what I do. I don't need to be religious to care. Caring about the planet doesn't mean I go chasing whaling ships. Another narrow-minded view. I also work with the elderly, do charity work, foster pets....anything else you'd like to diss?

You openly judge me and life and you claim to be a christian?

Originally posted by kacou
I think I didn’t make any mistake in categorizing this issue of atheism.
Plain and simple atheist believe in matter before thoughts, therefore a belief in a mechanical universe where is maybe places for ghost and all sort of phenomenon but no place at all for an initial thought source of origin.

You did. And in a less explicit way you still are.

'Initial thought source'? Heh. You mean divine god-like intelligence?

Yes, that's what an atheist would reject. Indeed, it's sort of fundamental to the description.

Ps. please do not assume that one is misinformed as one try to learn as it go, and surely you will be a fail teacher in the realm of absolute. And do not ask people to keep they thoughts to themselves as you are first to propagate your relative knowledge. Thank you.

I've just been following the thread and was pretty amazed that you just kept pushing what essentially suggests that atheism = materialism/naturalism. Most atheists I know are materialists/naturalists in some way, yet not all.

Going back to the first part, you still are suggesting that atheism = materialism/physicalism/phil. naturalism. That for an atheist to believe in ghosts, this would necessarily require such ghosts to part of the natural order. I think this could apply for many atheists who might believe in ghosts, but not all.

Atheism does not equal materialism. Non-theistic Buddhists are essentially atheists, yet possess spirituality and non-materialistic beliefs.

Materialism = philosophical naturalism/physicalism

Atheism = non-belief in god(s)/godess(es)/absence of theistic belief

They are not equivalent. Atheists could believe in all sorts of non-material and paranormal concepts, obviously apart from a theistic one. I think it is fair to say that most philosophical naturalists are atheists, but what about naturalistic pantheists? To them, nature is god. They are suggesting they are not atheists and they do claim spirituality (cf. some new-age type beliefs).

If you knew the history of the word 'atheism' or 'atheos', you would see how wrong your previous claims are [i.e., historically it was a derogatory term for anyone (theistic or otherwise) not worshipping the One True God(TM)].

If you want to say atheistic materialists, then do so.

reply to post by swinggal


Oh come on - nobody is dis'ing anything here. A little harmless hyperbole and a touch of sarcasm can be used to get people thinking. If you take offense at every observation or opinion, you make it impossible to question why you do the things you do. The topic is an inspection of atheism so, I think it's fair to try and understand it by asking an atheist why they behave the way they do. And while we're at it, a lot of people seem to think that Jesus' directives to 'judge not lest ye be judged' are a directive to stop making determinations about right and wrong. I think judgment entails both determination of right and wrong and sentencing or condemnation. I'm not condemning anybody. Jesus didn't condemn anybody but he certainly made determinations of right and wrong, e.g. when he turned over the tables of the money changers.

It's good that you engage in these various acts of kindness and charity. Where do your ethics and morality come from? Have you come to the conclusion that this is the very 'best' for you and the people you serve? If you have, then congratulations because you are in excellent agreement with God! However, can you know that your righteous acts are truly righteous? I'm reminded of a time when I was sincerely trying to work my way to heaven and had several experiences where, although I wanted to believe that my heart was in the right place, it turned out my good works were filthy rags - wrong motives, wrong action, unintended side-effects. Think about the welfare system in the U.S. - is it doing the good that people intend? I think not, there are many bad side-effects of this apparently righteous act.

Do we stop trying to be ethical and moral because of this dilemma? Certainly not. We try even harder but I believe that we actually need supernatural guidance to do things that are truly righteous. In my opinion, without this you'll eventually prove the biblical observation: the heart is deceitful above all things, desperately wicked, who can know it? (Jeremiah).

reply to post by FreeMason


You sure are full of yourself and are very narrow minded and short sighted. I am the strongest atheist your likely to meet and I have experienced more than you could imagine. I live in the mountains of the west coast and spend as much time out in it as possible.

You need to stop generalizing and learn how to state your case other than posting some lame anti atheist quotes that mean as much as toilet paper.

reply to post by melatonin


Maybe you right that I meant my definition to Atheist materialist.
Never mind as I feel is a paradox where an absolute ideology of none existence of God is a direct contradiction to spiritualism.
Any way this is my opinion…not a fact at all.
You have mention Buddhism as, I quote: “Buddhists are essentially atheists”. This is not what they believe system is about at all.
This is misleading the Buddhism teaching.
Most Buddhists trust that all the different experience that exist originate from one reality, they have a universal character and this characteristic is not situated in any point in time and place and words used to try to describe this attribute would be grossly insufficient and deceptive.
Hence a tree is god, a rock is god, an animal is god, the sky is god, the sun is god, you are god, all part of god but not absolute God.
The problem is the western educational culture system where by God is represented as a personal god.
The west is not satisfied with this concept of the universe and reality that the Buddhist are referring to, so the west label them as Atheist.

Kacou.

Originally posted by kacou
none existence of God is a direct contradiction to spiritualism.

Don't see why that would be. I guess it would depend on what the basis of this belief would be.

You have mention Buddhism as, I quote: “Buddhists are essentially atheists”. This is not what they believe system is about at all.
This is misleading the Buddhism teaching.

Well, I did say non-theistic buddhism for a reason, as Buddhism is much less than a homogenous belief system. Thus, tibetan style buddhism is a bit different than other variants. Anyway:

Is Buddhism Atheistic?

By: Venerable Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda

Excerpt from the book " What Buddhists Believe"

Atheism is associated with a materialistic doctrine that knows nothing higher than this world.

The Buddha has condemned godlessness by which He meant the denial of worship and renunciation, the denial of moral and social obligations, and the denial of a religious life. He recognized most emphatically the existence of moral and spiritual values. He acclaimed the supremacy of the moral law. Only in one sense can Buddhism be described as atheistic, namely, in so far as it denies the existence of an eternal omnipotent God or God-head who is the creator and ordainer of the world. The word 'atheism', however, frequently carries a number of disparaging overtones or implications which are in no way applicable to the Buddha's Teaching. Those who use the word 'atheism', often associate it with a materialistic doctrine that knows nothing higher than this world of the senses and the slight happiness it can bestow. Buddhism advocates nothing of that sort.

www.greatwisdomcenter.org...

Amazingly, atheism is all about denying existence of such things.

So, buddhism can be atheistic in the sense of denying god, which is in one way what atheism means (absence of belief/non-belief/disbelief). But then he complains about the 'disparaging overtones' to the term, by which he means people associating materialism with atheism.

Which is exactly what you did. Of course, materialism and atheism can often be found together, but in its true sense some buddhists are essentially atheists.

All a bit complicated, no? You can't really even just say materialists to mean atheists, as naturalistic pantheists are essentially materialists, but view the whole of nature as god. However, I think that's just atheism for those who don't want to feel left out of the theism happy-happy party. Indeed, if you define god = nature, even I accept the existence of nature, I just don't see the point of calling in god.

But if we go back to the start, atheists could believe in ghosts, ghoulies, and an afterlife. Could be in the naturalistic sense or maybe not - they just won't have a belief in deities. Which was my main point.

[edit on 8-8-2008 by melatonin]

However, can you know that your righteous acts are truly righteous?

I don't do anything to be 'righteous'. I do what I can because I have much to give and I WANT to give. Haven't you ever done anything for someone just for the pure love of doing it?

Where do I get my ethics from? From my parents, neither of whom are religious - they are just good, caring people.

reply to post by swinggal


I don't know if you get Seinfeld in Australia or not but if you do, you probably remember the episode with Babu, the Pakistani immigrant who had opened a restaurant near Jerry's apartment. The long and short of it was, Jerry was certain he was helping Babu, felt great about himself, and then managed to get Babu deported (which figured in the final episode in Jerry's trial).

Not everything we define as 'good' is good. When you ask me if I've ever done anything just for the love of it, I'm wondering if you also mean because of love for the people I'm serving. Certainly, I've done both. Both because I enjoy it and get a lot of personal satisfaction out of it but also because I believe/hope that the people who are the recipients are getting something good out of it. Unfortunately, there are plenty of unintended consequences and charity delivered on the backs of the unwilling that is performed in these perfectly harmless efforts.

I don't think I'm a very good weather vane for myself and my intentions and I rely on the wisdom of the bible to steer me. It's great that you've been blessed with great parents who have taught you the right way to do things. But I really do believe that sometimes we are pretty good at tamping down our true motives, which are often self-serving, and we deceive ourselves.

Ahhh...yes. We had Sienfeld here. And about 20 times over on re-runs since it began in the early 90's. Not much we don't get here. Australia is a very worldly place. Yes, I know the episode. I see your point but it's extreme.

Don't know what more to say in this thread. I really don't. All I know is that I don't need to be religious to be a good person. Ethical rules to live by existed LONG before Christianity. People seem to forget that.

Freemason says: “I've never found an athiest yet that experienced and loved nature,”

Freemason, your post is over 5 years old, and it looks like you are no longer on the board, however, I will say to all those who think like you do, that,
I am an atheist, objectivist and romantic idealist all wrapped into one.
I love nature. I love rocks, and I have some granite boulders that I brought from Wisconsin, here under my desk.
I love trees. I live in the country and have lots of them on my land.
I designed my house so that no matter where in it I am, I have a view of the yard and my precious trees.
When there is a forest fire, I weep more for the trees than I do for the humans.
I could go on and on….
Humans were never monkeys. There is no need for this. Thinking outside the box can solve many problems.

Where do you get the “new souls” thing? Proof?

Illmatic67 says: How do atoms, which are CHAOS, come together to create this universe and us without some kind of supreme being acting upon them?

***Atoms are not chaos. They follow the rules of all nature. They get together in patterns that create the elements.

Kacou, I am open to believing that all matter has some form of consciousness. Humans are so vain as to think they and only they have it, and the ability to love.
Free will? Do we not behave according to laws of cause & effect? We have that well known word, “Because.”

Kacou says: “Plain and simple atheist believe in matter before thoughts, therefore a belief in a mechanical universe where is maybe places for ghost and all sort of phenomenon but no place at all for an initial thought source of origin.”

****You are wrong! Unless of course you are a mind reader. Are You? It is arrogant to presume that you know what atheists believe. I do hope you are “learning as you go” here.

Ichabod says:” My beef with atheists is that they're irrational.”

****Ichies, you don’t know many atheists either do you? You make this statement and then go right on describing what any intelligent atheist would do.
And I didn’t have a boring low paying job. It was a semi-glamorous position of “Queen Bee” and General Manager.
Hmmm, my observation is that you seem to be the one who is whining.

Parafreaky, why does there have to be a “higher power” that is outside yourself for those synchronous events to occur?
synchronicity

Originally posted by OhZone

Ichabod says:” My beef with atheists is that they're irrational.”

****Ichies, you don’t know many atheists either do you? You make this statement and then go right on describing what any intelligent atheist would do.
And I didn’t have a boring low paying job. It was a semi-glamorous position of “Queen Bee” and General Manager.
Hmmm, my observation is that you seem to be the one who is whining.

Queen Bee? Ugh. I'd like to see that one on a business card and I'd like to ask any of your atheist ex-employees what they thought of working for you!

And what's this "Ichies" crap? Are you a George Bush acolyte who demonstrates dominance by renaming people to her own liking? Use the handles, that's what they're there for.

As a matter of fact, I'm surrounded by atheists and very few of them have Queen Bee on their business cards. Most of them are in the trenches making people like you look good for reasons I cannot fathom. Mind you, these are my observations, but their doctrine of 'no God' seems to go hand in hand with their doctrine of the rejection of authority, except their own of course.