Here's the commercial that ABC, NBC won't air.

Originally posted by mikerussellus
Here it is folks, not sure how to link this, but I'll do the best I can.

www.youtube.com...

Are they THAT afraid of the truth?

[edit on 28-8-2009 by mikerussellus]

Very good! Yes, they are that afraid of the truth.A lot of times,if you
want to get real news,you have to get an offshore broadcast.

Originally posted by mithrawept
Everyone is caught up in the argument but the real truth of this issue isn't healthcare, it's money and vested interests. To allow millions of Americans to go without healthcare is shameful.

While the British National Health Service isn't perfect, at least everyone is treated, rich or poor.

Perhaps it's better to spend the money on patient care, than lining the pockets of insurance companies and health providers?.....

Health spending as a share of GDP.
US 16% UK 8.4%

Public spending on healthcare (% of total spending on healthcare)
US 45% UK 82%

Health spending per head
US $7,290 UK $2,992

Practising physicians (per 1,000 people)
US 2.4 UK 2.5

Nurses (per 1,000 people)
US 10.6 UK 10.0

Acute care hospital beds (per 1,000 people)
US 2.7 UK 2.6

Life expectancy:
US 78 UK 80

Infant mortality (per 1,000 live births)
US 6.7 UK 4.8

I appreciate your research. I was thinking about this but didn't research it.

What this shows is that a lot of money is being spent on healthcare in the US - I believe the most per capita around the world! - yet the QUALITY of care is not any better than locations where less is spent.

This - among other things - tells us that there is a lot of financial waste. In Canada, we placed a cap on GP incomes. We lose a lot of doctors to the USA where there is more money to be had.

Sure, doctors and nurses and healthcare individuals are worth a good to great income - but there must be a relativistic and logical renumeration scale to afford these professionals.

We could use some "essential" rhetoric and ask who is worth more. The doctor, or the people who build the establishments the doctor's need to do what they do? And so the logical study of the value of each individual on the social ladder is once again revisited - but for good reason!

Originally posted by DieterDengler
I was at a party last Christmas, at a M.D.'s house. He had an amazing collection of ERTE bronze statues, about 25ish I would guess. His house was about the length of a football field and he had a garage that was filled with beautiful cars - several Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Mercedes, and collectibles such as a 1974 Karmann Ghia ranked number 6 in the world.

He earned his money because he was able to tell people that were dying of heart disease that if they didn't pay his fee, they would most likely die. A gifted surgeon but nevertheless only to those who could afford it...

Something tells me the American Medical Mafia just doesn't want to give up control over who can afford to live, it would hurt their car and art collections.

Absolutely correct - even though I don't quite relate to your pic/avatar! - But seriously, it really IS THAT SIMPLE!

You say this in public or to these individuals and they reply in a manner that depicts YOU as some sort of "hater!"

How DARE you suggest that such a PROFESSIONAL - and great contributor to society - is more concerned about his riches than the health of the nation!

YOU ARE correct. Period.

reply to post by mamabeth


You have a strange notion of the truth. Someone was just kind enough to post statistics that show that 'not enough doctors' is an absolute falsehood, or worse, a blatant lie designed to instill fear, and yet here you are promoting it as truth that needs to be seen.

If a network decides not to run ads that are blatant lies, that's their prerogative.

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
reply to post by gtatix

 

"Utopian Socialism" is the perfect setting for a national, or even Global dictatorship... Utopian Socialism gives the power to the rich elite to control every aspect of our lives, that is "utopian Socialism"...

You are correct in one way - and incorrect in another. Clearly if the control is monopolized and the potential for corruption is apparent - human nature will tell us that some - a few - will take advantage and destroy the potential for success.

This is the KEY problem with ANY society. Hierarchy and power with no "checks and balances" or transparency; with cover-ups and lies amongst those in power. With a media that has biases. And on and on.

Whether it be communism, socialism, capitalism - whatever; there is corruption within all of them.

Looking from the outside in is easy. We clearly see problems with North Korea. Those people usually cannot!

WE/YOU also have problems. Only now-and-then do they surface - yet they have been festering ad nauseum indefinitely! Just look at some of the business people who are now in jail - who were thought to have been great financial experts! They were simply CRIMINALS.

How many more of these assholes are there? I surmise MANY! How ruinous are they to our/your society? Likely VERY. How do you stop this? You can't for the most part because the laws that rule all of the capitalist society protect the ability to investigate properly.

So.....what's the answer?

How about a government that is elected by the people and works for the people?

Sounds good - but it isn't working for some strange reason. Could it be because the government often only works for SOME of the people and that they are so covert that proper investigations cannot be implemented.

Man, this is a big - vicious circle.

Obama APPEARS to be the most "REAL" and "SINCERE" member of society you guys have had for a long time. He is not the ONLY voice of course - and he has "advisors."

I believe his INTENTIONS are good - he is very transparent. The problem lies with all the red-tape that is processed. It makes it very very difficult for the average citizen to have a chance to read and/or understand all the politics that are "going-on!"



[edit on 29-8-2009 by gtatix]

Originally posted by DieterDengler
reply to post by Schaden

 

The Dick Morris agency produces the highest priced PR in the world. What it means is that the people who paid for the ad and extras paid more than any other company on Earth charges. This is not a reflection of any personal belief of DM, this is a reflection of who is willing to pay that much.

Well, anyone who paid large money for this piece of # just got had! Did the doctor review the words? Did they edit his dialogue and he qualified his statements but they were chopped?

Because most people with an IQ over 90 can see the really scary message in this waste-of-electrons propaganda message.

The purchasers of the ad either don't have that sub-average IQ I mentioned earlier - or they believe they are more intelligent than the masses and don't believe that they will decipher the message and conclude the "other" possible conclusion to the message.

That "other" conclusion has been discovered here on a number of occasions.

It is that Doctor Whacko et al are telling us that we need to leave those nasty 50 Million needy sickos out of the fold lest we lose what we - the chosen ones - now have!!

reply to post by gtatix



Have you not noticed the veritable parade of people saying that the ad needs to be seen by the masses, so that they may know the truth? Or that the statistics that prove the statements made in the ad to be lies seem to have no effect on this attitude?

Originally posted by suicydking
reply to post by gtatix

 

Have you not noticed the veritable parade of people saying that the ad needs to be seen by the masses, so that they may know the truth? Or that the statistics that prove the statements made in the ad to be lies seem to have no effect on this attitude?

This is the problem. Some can see that ad and decode the "other" message. Others simply cannot. The only logical conclusion is that those who cannot are either not intelligent enough - or they have been brainwashed in some way.

We discuss this here - but we are the minority. It's great to see like-minds and it is frightening to realize that those who can "think for themselves" are a sparse minority.

A little off topic - but I can't help but believe that stem-cell therapy is the future cure-all.

That said, such a "find" would threaten the financial well-being of those who thrive from the illness of others.

There is no logical reason why stem-cell research and therapy should be thwarted or "back-burnered." But it is.

Clearly arguments of "not enough research" are warranted; but if you're dying, wouldn't you want to be injected by some of these things?

This is directly related to this topic in that something that could heal people quicker and with little-to-no-need for extensive care and hospitilization would greatly reduce the alleged - and real financial - strains on the "system."

Originally posted by suicydking
Are you serious?

This is America. We roll up our sleeves and do what we can. We don't toss people out to die because they can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars a month for health care.

We don't toss people out, YET!
What about the End of Life clause?

Yes we roll up our sleeves and do what we have to do, but NOBODY likes to be forced to take on any extra workload, which is what doctors will have to do if Obamacare passes.
There are many doctors outs there now that can't take on any new patients because they are already swamped. It's not that they they don't want to, they just can't.
And now they'll be forced take on many more patients.
Just like in everything else, when you contentrate on quantity, quality will always suffer.
Think about logically, not emotionally.

Health care should be included in the basic list of human needs that are provided for, so that we can go forth and pursue life, liberty and happiness without having to acquire wealth first.

You forgot about the part about providing for the common defense but that's off topic.

I agree, but only to a point because whether this thing passes or not, there will always be people that will continue to get sick simply because they refuse to listen to their doctor and continue to live life on the edge. Many of these stubborn folks will even go against their doctors wishes just to try to proove a point.

Will you be the first to tell an uninsured child that that can't seek treatment for an infection because you don't want to wait in a lobby for an hour?

Your statement shows the worst traits of humanity. To deny someone medical treatment for the sake of your convenience is absolutely deplorable.

Who said anything about denying medical treatment, so why in the hell are you putting words in my mouth?
Read my post.
I stated there should be some type of reform but Obama should have prepared a lot better to soften the blow he wants to inflict on our healthcare professonals.

Quite a bit of stimulus is going to college grants.

So they told us, just like they told us the Lotto was going to help our schools.

I find the fear tactics are getting so old.

I had enough of this after a too long election. And we can't even get a break.

Does the right know how to do anything else?

Funny, how they don't mention there is a doctor shortage because drs. are not enrolling anymore because insurance companies don't pay enough. Because they can't practise medicine and and spend time with the patients.

Or that republicans tried to prevent those seniors from getting medicare in the first place.

Or only that a fraction of the doctors now specialize in geriatrics. That most have to go into specialized medicine because general practise doesn't pay. PCPS work 60 hours a week, and insurance companies mandate they only get 15 minutes per patient.

I find all the scare tactics aimed at seniors to be the lowest common denominator.





[edit on 29-8-2009 by nixie_nox]

This commercial makes absolutely no sense. Are we supposed to believe that a shortage of doctors will not be a problem if people do not have health care? If people are sick and they don't have health insurance they are going to show up in an emergency room and they will receive care and there will be no reimbursement for the hospital.

Does this method cost us less? Somebody is going to pay and you bet your bottom dollar it is going to be us. The insurance companies are sweating in their boots because right now they are calling the shots. They decide who lives and who dies. Who gets treatment and medication and who doesn't. Who gets a hospital bed and for how long. They even decide what tests and what services your doctor can provide.

Imagine what will happen when the power returns to where it belongs. Back into the hands of the doctor.

Originally posted by nixie_nox
I find the fear tactics are getting so old.

I had enough of this after a too long election. And we can't even get a break.

Does the right know how to do anything else?


[edit on 29-8-2009 by nixie_nox]

No, not so much... But some times you find that one person who busts the same dance moves all night and still manages to get all the ladies.

The move is the same , there is just a different song in the background...

Originally posted by Alxandro

Originally posted by suicydking
Are you serious?

This is America. We roll up our sleeves and do what we can. We don't toss people out to die because they can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars a month for health care.

We don't toss people out, YET!
What about the End of Life clause?

Yes we roll up our sleeves and do what we have to do, but NOBODY likes to be forced to take on any extra workload, which is what doctors will have to do if Obamacare passes.
There are many doctors outs there now that can't take on any new patients because they are already swamped. It's not that they they don't want to, they just can't.
And now they'll be forced take on many more patients.
Just like in everything else, when you contentrate on quantity, quality will always suffer.
Think about logically, not emotionally.

Health care should be included in the basic list of human needs that are provided for, so that we can go forth and pursue life, liberty and happiness without having to acquire wealth first.

You forgot about the part about providing for the common defense but that's off topic.

I agree, but only to a point because whether this thing passes or not, there will always be people that will continue to get sick simply because they refuse to listen to their doctor and continue to live life on the edge. Many of these stubborn folks will even go against their doctors wishes just to try to proove a point.

Will you be the first to tell an uninsured child that that can't seek treatment for an infection because you don't want to wait in a lobby for an hour?

Your statement shows the worst traits of humanity. To deny someone medical treatment for the sake of your convenience is absolutely deplorable.

Who said anything about denying medical treatment, so why in the hell are you putting words in my mouth?
Read my post.
I stated there should be some type of reform but Obama should have prepared a lot better to soften the blow he wants to inflict on our healthcare professonals.

Quite a bit of stimulus is going to college grants.

So they told us, just like they told us the Lotto was going to help our schools.

Well, I'm pretty sure that the gist of your post was agreeing with the commercial in the idea that we should not have a public option due to lack of doctors. I apologize if I misinterpreted your intent.

There have been a few posts since you posted in this thread which demonstrate that our number of doctors, nurses and beds per capita are adequate. In some cases we are better prepared to provide care to the entire population of our nation than countries who already offer universal health care are capable of providing for theirs..

As far as stimulus money for college goes, I'm confidant that a simple google search will demonstrate how that money is actively being applied. I checked it out yesterday, which is why I edited my post to include that line.

reply to post by suicydking


I actually read the bill.

reply to post by suicydking


WHO have they tossed out to die?
WHO has been denied treatment?
WHAT child has been denied treatment?

There are current LAWS that state that no-one will be denied treatment.

I'd like to know who these people are so we can send those that denied them to jail!

Also, to those that state that Obama will initiate programs to get more doctors, take another closer look at the bill. Obamaplan also states that the government will dictate what they get paid.

reply to post by mikerussellus


There is a difference between being allowed to walk into an ER and get treated for an emergency and making an appointment with a doctor for your child. An ER can't turn anyone away, but GP's and clinics will stop allowing you to make appointments if you don't pay them.

This is why some people will call an ambulance for their child when they get something like strep throat. At least they can get some meds at the ER. It would be astronomically less expensive to take them to the doctor's office for an appointment, but they can't without insurance or cash in hand. The hospital winds up footing the bill.

WHO have they tossed out to die? WHO has been denied treatment? WHAT child has been denied treatment?

I'm talking to the people who agree with the message in the ad. That we can't afford to let 50 million uninsured get medical care because we can't spare the doctors.

Edited for completeness
[edit on 29-8-2009 by suicydking]

[edit on 29-8-2009 by suicydking]

reply to post by logican

You predict vets will take the place of doctors and why? Based on what?

Taking the place doctors is not what I stated.
My point is if there is a shortage of doctors due to Obama opening the flood gates with new patients, we won't have time to wait for new doctors to get fully trained. There will be a shortage of doctors and this is where vets will come in to help lighten the load until A) more medical students become official and B) until more foreign doctors come in from abroad to also help out.

reply to post by suicydking


Look at it this way.

I have a pie and everyone gets a piece.

All of a sudden, I have 10 more people who want pie.

Everyone still gets a slice, it's just that the slices are smaller now.

For everyone.

Yeah, everyone has pie now. Just tiny pieces.

The thought that there are people supporting a plan like this is simply idiotic. Some people are still so engaged and caught up in the superstar that obama tries to be that they don't even care about the facts.

Perhaps after this bill is slammed through and we're all starving and dying of sickness without treatment then they'll see how ignorant they were. America has the best healthcare in the world practically...why mess with it...Worse than that...WHY HAVE THE GOVERNMENT MESS WITH IT.

The government is the last thing that should be getting involved with healthcare...The already own the car industry and the banks. Too much power, too little time.

I can smell the b.s. from here.