Russian scientist photographs souls leaving body at death.

reply to post by jinx880101

I don't think we can fully comprehend what the 'soul' 'spirit'/universe/multiverse accually is or what it is capeable of or it's reason for existance.

I'm not sure. Part of the problem is that our definitions and concepts of "soul" and "consciousness" are far too vague and broadly reaching. They're not really useful. Going back to my contention with Colin McGinn's position on the previous page, I should clarify that in a way he is right. The brain is not equipped to fully comprehend the depth of it's own processes. This doesn't mean we'll never fully understand it, or consciousness, but that we simply cannot conceptualize it.

This might seem contradictory, but consider the moon.

We can measure the distance to the moon with centimeter precision. We know how much fuel to load onto a rocket, how long the trip will take at a given velocity, how much food and oxygen to pack to fully supply the crew... but try to conceptualize the distance to the moon. We are just shy of 240,000 miles away from the moon. Imagine that distance in your mind. Really try to conceptualize it.

You can't. Our brains simply are not equipped to conceptualize such distances. We can kind of fumble at the edges of such a concept... but lets go further. Try to conceptualize the distance to Saturn. Visualize yourself walking that distance as you would walking a mile down the road. Try to conceptualize a distance so far away - that it takes even light from the sun an hour and twelve minutes (roughly) to reach there after passing the Earth.

Yet we've sent probes there.

I think this is the major problem with consciousness. It is the emergent result of a complex system of interactions (see the New Scientist video I posted) far beyond our conceptualization... and it's product is entirely subjective and unmeasurable, unobservable, and immaterial. Arguing the "Hard Problem" of consciousness is like trying to visualize and conceptualize the distance to Saturn. Cognitive Neuroscience is then akin to the math and science behind actually sending a probe there.

reply to post by platipus
I heard reading the thread helps



[edit on 28-8-2009 by technical difficulties]

It doesn't seem that the posters are arguing against the existence of a soul, but rather against the photography capturing the soul. Another thing to consider is the change of body temperature during the process of death. When my dad was in his last day of coma, his body temp raised over 101. The doc said that is typical of the dying. Perhaps the thermal images relate to local body temps.

Another thing: consider the detail in the images. On the "dead" image there are still points of blue. Does this mean the soul in those areas is still in the body? Like, ears?

No doubt he is finding something, but not likely the invisible soul. Great article and nice attempt by the doc.

reply to post by jinx880101


I have the very same theory, had it for a while now.
I would love to share my experences but they would remove them for sure.
Nice thread. S+F!

Originally posted by Lasheic
Cognitive science (There is no eternal soul)

Cognitive science in no way proves we are soulless...

In fact it often supports the theory.

www.nytimes.com...

Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by Lasheic
Evidently, you're not understanding the basic definitions of that which you're arguing. I think you're just making up your own unique definitions in an attempt to obfuscate the issue into something inarguable.

Consciousness is not a synonym for soul/observer.

Obviously vaguely these terms are similar and people commonly associate them together but the distinction makes sense.

Consciousness is the constant experience created by the physical brain.

The soul is the eternal entity or power that actually feels and responds to the experience.

This is why people don't always understand themselves.

www.nytimes.com...

I think if you really thought about it you would agree.

Originally posted by Lasheic
You don't want to face the conclusions of the evidence, and cling to flimsy justifications and apologetics. I think you're afraid of the implications of the de-mystification of the soul, of the mind.

I'll admit that this a theory that is supported by logical reasoning and not necessarily definitively proven by science but no current science negates the theory of a separate observing entity, and often it supports it.

Originally posted by Lasheic
Even if the soul were to exist as flowing input to our brains, cognitive neuroscience and our increasing understanding of the human mind have reduced the importance of the "soul" to YOU and YOUR personal identity to essentially nothingness. It would be little more than a passive component, as integral to defining who YOU are as the oxygen you breath which you referenced earlier. Less important even, than the electricity firing across your synapse.

This part shows your starting to understand the issue.

Your reluctance is that you believe the observer-reality connection is some how religion or faith based.

I'm not talking about Casper here.

I'm talking about the other side of the equation.

Like electricity or a fire. What is the fuel?

Plants and animals have it, but we just have the volume turned up.

Originally posted by Phlegmi
And this taken from a source that features an article

World’s strongest vagina breaks own record lifting 14 kilos

In my opinion there is no soul just wishful thinking by the weakminded. When you die you will rot in the ground, the same thing happens to you after death as before your birth.. Nothing.

haha this is awesome

I don't know what to think about this, but I am open to learning. I hope more people will stumble along with some facts and some heavy brains will try to debunk this, maybe we'll find it's fake, or maybe we'll find it can't be debunked. This is certainly shocking if true.

Nice thread,very interesting.I have always wondered if they could photograph the soul leaving the body''shell''.

p.s Don't let the closed minded negative posters get in your way.

Originally posted by jinx880101
What I don't understand though is why some of you are so hell bent on proving that a soul doesn't exist? I mean, would it really be such a bad thing?

You are making a huge assumption when you assume that I am trying to disprove the existence of a soul. I personally believe in a soul.

All I was doing is proving that YOUR sources suck. They are bad sources. I agree, it would be nice if there were a soul. You know what else would be nice? It would be TOTALLY SWEET if there were an invisible alien spacecraft flying above my house that would beam money into my bank account. However, if you were to try to prove me wrong about that particular spacecraft, it wouldn't necessarily mean that you don't believe in aliens. You just wouldn't believe in MY aliens. Just like I don't believe in YOUR sources.

Seriously, you act all spiritual and stuff, but if you accept these things as true without critically analyzing them, then chances are YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD INSIDE. GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. You are no different than any other cult member who is drinking the Koolaid and waiting for the aliens that are putting money in my bank account to come take them away to Proxima Centauri or whatever. Feel me?

Originally posted by Albastion

Originally posted by jinx880101
What I don't understand though is why some of you are so hell bent on proving that a soul doesn't exist? I mean, would it really be such a bad thing?

You are making a huge assumption when you assume that I am trying to disprove the existence of a soul. I personally believe in a soul.

All I was doing is proving that YOUR sources suck. They are bad sources. I agree, it would be nice if there were a soul. You know what else would be nice? It would be TOTALLY SWEET if there were an invisible alien spacecraft flying above my house that would beam money into my bank account. However, if you were to try to prove me wrong about that particular spacecraft, it wouldn't necessarily mean that you don't believe in aliens. You just wouldn't believe in MY aliens. Just like I don't believe in YOUR sources.

Seriously, you act all spiritual and stuff, but if you accept these things as true without critically analyzing them, then chances are YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD INSIDE. GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. You are no different than any other cult member who is drinking the Koolaid and waiting for the aliens that are putting money in my bank account to come take them away to Proxima Centauri or whatever. Feel me?

We get it dude Your'e a no nonsense tuff guy Yell,Scream,use big caps

Go Screw.

Originally posted by jinx880101
reply to post by -NewSense-

 

These pictures prove nothing. Why is everyone so excited? I lol'd

Why don't you accually read up on some of this,and see how you feel then? You should also read all the posts before commenting like that, why dont you prove to me why they prove nothing Do you even understand the concept?

And "I lol'd"? What kind of english is that..I laughed out louded? I laugh out louded?

Maybe you should check your own grammar before using it to insult others. I didn't even highlight all the problems with your post.

LOL'DERSKATES

This is a nice article but seriously.. I don't see much proof. Not much came up on google to back this up either.

Originally posted by greydaze

Originally posted by Albastion

Originally posted by jinx880101
What I don't understand though is why some of you are so hell bent on proving that a soul doesn't exist? I mean, would it really be such a bad thing?

You are making a huge assumption when you assume that I am trying to disprove the existence of a soul. I personally believe in a soul.

All I was doing is proving that YOUR sources suck. They are bad sources. I agree, it would be nice if there were a soul. You know what else would be nice? It would be TOTALLY SWEET if there were an invisible alien spacecraft flying above my house that would beam money into my bank account. However, if you were to try to prove me wrong about that particular spacecraft, it wouldn't necessarily mean that you don't believe in aliens. You just wouldn't believe in MY aliens. Just like I don't believe in YOUR sources.

Seriously, you act all spiritual and stuff, but if you accept these things as true without critically analyzing them, then chances are YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD INSIDE. GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. You are no different than any other cult member who is drinking the Koolaid and waiting for the aliens that are putting money in my bank account to come take them away to Proxima Centauri or whatever. Feel me?

We get it dude Your'e a no nonsense tuff guy Yell,Scream,use big caps

Go Screw.

You may not like my posting style, but you can't argue with the fact that the sources posted in this thread are either hoaxed or misleading. Maybe those of you that are so 100% convinced that this is real are the closed minded ones.

In any case, to the aliens floating above my house, please beam some more money into my account. Thanks.

reply to post by Jezus


This is the third time you've posted that article, as if it's some kind of profound evidence for your claim. Thus far, it's not been worth responding to - because if you can't differentiate your supposed definition of the soul from the workings of the sub-conscious mind - then you're off in la-la land grasping at straws. I might as well be arguing with rain puddles.

So why don't YOU quote the pertinent sections that YOU think are validating your supposition, because I found no positive validation, indication, or supposition for the existence of anything outside of the realm of neuroscience and cognitive psychology - as well as evolutionary psychology.

Originally posted by Lasheic
if you can't differentiate your supposed definition of the soul from the workings of the sub-conscious mind...

You're the one that can't seem to tell the difference.

Consciousness is not a synonym for soul/observer.

Obviously vaguely these terms are similar and people commonly associate them together but the distinction makes sense.

Consciousness is the constant experience created by the physical brain.

The soul is the eternal entity or power that actually feels and responds to the experience.

Originally posted by Lasheic
So why don't YOU quote the pertinent sections that YOU think are validating your supposition, because I found no positive validation, indication, or supposition for the existence of anything outside of the realm of neuroscience and cognitive psychology - as well as evolutionary psychology.

Originally posted by Jezus
Who’s Minding the Mind?
www.nytimes.com...

"The students who held a cup of iced coffee rated a hypothetical person they later read about as being much colder, less social and more selfish than did their fellow students, who had momentarily held a cup of hot java."

“Well, we’re finding that we have these unconscious behavioral guidance systems that are continually furnishing suggestions through the day about what to do next, and the brain is considering and often acting on those, all before conscious awareness...

Dr. Bargh added: “Sometimes those goals are in line with our conscious intentions and purposes, and sometimes they’re not.” "

"The brain appears to use the very same neural circuits to execute an unconscious act as it does a conscious one. In a study that appeared in the journal Science in May, a team of English and French neuroscientists performed brain imaging on 18 men and women who were playing a computer game for money. The players held a handgrip and were told that the tighter they squeezed when an image of money flashed on the screen, the more of the loot they could keep.

As expected, the players squeezed harder when the image of a British pound flashed by than when the image of a penny did — regardless of whether they consciously perceived the pictures, many of which flew by subliminally. But the circuits activated in their brains were similar as well: an area called the ventral pallidum was particularly active whenever the participants responded.

“This area is located in what used to be called the reptilian brain, well below the conscious areas of the brain,” said the study’s senior author, Chris Frith, a professor in neuropsychology at University College London who wrote the book “Making Up The Mind: How the Brain Creates our Mental World.”

The results suggest a “bottom-up” decision-making process, in which the ventral pallidum is part of a circuit that first weighs the reward and decides, then interacts with the higher-level, conscious regions later, if at all, Dr. Frith said.

"Scientists have spent years trying to pinpoint the exact neural regions that support conscious awareness, so far in vain"

"Yet the new research on priming makes it clear that we are not alone in our own consciousness. We have company, an invisible partner who has strong reactions about the world that don’t always agree with our own, but whose instincts, these studies clearly show, are at least as likely to be helpful, and attentive to others, as they are to be disruptive."

You seem to have a mental block with the issue of the "soul" that prevents you from fully comprehending the implications of current neuroscience.

You're trying to argue you with me but I agree with your understanding of the brain, you just have to take the logical a step further.

After reading the thread I began to ask myself something, how long could a soul hang around its former body??? Good thread

reply to post by Albastion

Seriously, you act all spiritual and stuff, but if you accept these things as true without critically analyzing them, then chances are YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD INSIDE. GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. You are no different than any other cult member who is drinking the Koolaid and waiting for the aliens that are putting money in my bank account to come take them away to Proxima Centauri or whatever. Feel me?

Please show me how I am TRYING to act all spiritual? I am just here looking for answers. As for my sources that might suck, I don't even get why you would say that..1 news source, a book review (which alot of people seem to agree with) and a document on how this technology works.

Please refrain from calling me a cult member or comparing me to one, I find that highly offensive as I do not belong to any group/cult of any sort. I, just like anyone else here, am just looking for answers. That is the reason for my post. To discuss the topic, not fight about it, and therefor learn more about it.

YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD INSIDE. GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT.

That is just unnecessary and common to say that to someone. You are seriously one of the rudest people I have encountered on this site! I can't believe you would accually stoop that low...

reply to post by greydaze


Totally sweet? You sound like an idealistic teenager who's pissed off cause he doesn't have a job and is living with mom and dad.

Get lost mate. Are you "comepletely crazy". This # is a phenomenon because you're not supposed to talk about it^^ get it! Get a life and stop making up lies. You know the ones you add on to sentences to seperate you from the general population^^

Originally posted by jinx880101

reply to post by Albastion

 

Seriously, you act all spiritual and stuff, but if you accept these things as true without critically analyzing them, then chances are YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD INSIDE. GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. You are no different than any other cult member who is drinking the Koolaid and waiting for the aliens that are putting money in my bank account to come take them away to Proxima Centauri or whatever. Feel me?

Please show me how I am TRYING to act all spiritual? I am just here looking for answers. As for my sources that might suck, I don't even get why you would say that..1 news source, a book review (which alot of people seem to agree with) and a document on how this technology works.

Please refrain from calling me a cult member or comparing me to one, I find that highly offensive as I do not belong to any group/cult of any sort. I, just like anyone else here, am just looking for answers. That is the reason for my post. To discuss the topic, not fight about it, and therefor learn more about it.

YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD INSIDE. GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT.

That is just unnecessary and common to say that to someone. You are seriously one of the rudest people I have encountered on this site! I can't believe you would accually stoop that low...

My first post was polite. My second post was rude because you skipped right over my logical, well thought out post and went straight to the name calling. I understand how these discussions usually play out, (believers versus skeptics dynamics) and I recognized you trying to pigeonhole everyone who disagreed with you as "hell-bent on disproving the existence of the soul". I wasn't going to let you get away with that because it isn't true.

Notice I didn't comment on your book review. I think '___' is an interesting discussion for a different topic, preferably one not called "Russian scientist photographs souls leaving body after death" since there is no proof of that at all in this thread.

These fantastical threads bother me because they get flagged up and then the controversial reality-based topics get overlooked. The pseudoscience (whatever you want to call them) topics then feed on one another because all these people have starred and flagged threads without reading them, and they all build off one another, and next thing I know what is "hot" on this site is a huge amount of unverifiable stuff with no supporting evidence.

Generally I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with those people when they don't post any evidence because then they try to play the "Oh you just aren't a believer" game. When they post "evidence" that I can refute, however, the game changes. Name call all you want, get offended, do the whole "how dare you" thing, but the evidence is still refuted. I might be a jerk, but I never argued that I wasn't a jerk.

Originally posted by lee anoma

Originally posted by jinx880101

reply to post by flice

 

I see nothing interesting here, and I hope noone will try and use this as proof that such thing as a soul exists.

Really? I feel sorry for you If thats the way you think...you really are a 'sad soul' (excuse the pun). Maybe you should spend some time outside.

Is that really fair?

This poster just sees something differently than you do and quite frankly I agree with him/her. I'm not really seeing anything that would indicate what was photographed was a "soul". The photo looks more like thermal imaging to me. I'm not even sure how this man has come to the conclusion that the blue areas in the photo are a soul.

I do believe in existence after Earthly "death" by the way.

The souls of the former remain in a state of confusion for several days and return frequently to their bodies, especially at night. Korotkov ascribes that phenomenon to unused energy retained by the soul.

How does he know this?
What evidence does he have to support that theory?

Then again when looking at the surrounding articles on that page I see that none of the claims made in the articles require much evidence to support them because apparently...a Russian church sells "miracle stickers" blessed by a priest that protect cellphone users from hazardous electromagnetic waves.

Really?

Is this site meant to be taken as a joke or just taking presenting all of these stories in an attempt to take advantage of the gullible?

Well looks like we already have opportunists on the move! From the same site:

Latvian firm accepts souls as guarantee for credits A financial company in Latvia is offering residents loans secured by nothing but their immortal soul. Mosnews.com

Doesn't take long I suppose.

- Lee

Talk about selling your soul.....

reply to post by Albastion

My first post was polite. My second post was rude because you skipped right over my logical, well thought out post and went straight to the name calling. I understand how these discussions usually play out, (believers versus skeptics dynamics) and I recognized you trying to pigeonhole everyone who disagreed with you as "hell-bent on disproving the existence of the soul". I wasn't going to let you get away with that because it isn't true.

First of all, I did not even reply to your first post, I posted a reply to the overall thread, and thanked the sceptics too. As for skipping right over to name calling, you crossed that line when you replied to my post, by saying....

YOU ARE SPIRITUALLY DEAD INSIDE. GARBAGE IN GARBAGE OUT. You are no different than any other cult member who is drinking the Koolaid and waiting for the aliens that are putting money in my bank account to come take them away to Proxima Centauri or whatever. Feel me?

.....when what I wrote was not even directed at you, if it was I would have replied to your specific post. The point is, you have bad manners. So don't try to pin that off on me or try to pass it off as your "posting style". You cannot make excuses for the fact that you are just plain rude. All your posts here are full of sarcasm.

I recognized you trying to pigeonhole everyone who disagreed with you as "hell-bent on disproving the existence of the soul". I wasn't going to let you get away with that because it isn't true.

You have that wrong too, I was refering to people who said exactly that, such as...

I see nothing interesting here, and I hope noone will try and use this as proof that such thing as a soul exists.

and...

TextIn my opinion there is no soul just wishful thinking by the weakminded. When you die you will rot in the ground, the same thing happens to you after death as before your birth.. Nothing.

Seriously, if you want to carry on arguing, it's going to have to be with someone else.