¿Economic Armageddon? Doesn't have To Be This Way, 7 Things You Can Do To Stop It.

Originally posted by sanchoearlyjones
Hi All,

Most all Americans were against stimulus 1, and We spoke out. However, We are now taxed without representation; that is Our representatives in Congress are bought, and paid for by special interest lobbies.

What did our founding fathers do when presented with taxation without representation? Seems like your post with 7 items may be missing a item or three.

Perhaps a good first step would be a little "Common Sense" of Thomas Paine fame?

we HAVE TO DO THIS... for the sake of our children and there children if there to have a future we must stop feeding the beast that keeps us enslaved.

Good to see that people are starting to see the corporate role in creating this crisis.

The biggest problem isn't government taxation, it is cost of banking and insurance that has sucked the life out of this country. It all began with Newt Gingrich and his contract on America when he de-regulated the finance industry.

People see how much government takes out of their paychecks, but they don't see how much of a bite banks and insurance takes. Banks take 10% for every purchase with a credit card or ATM. On top of that you are paying interest rates on your mortgage and your car loan, which tends to be where most people's money goes.

Then, on top of that, you have to have insurance for everything, your car, your house, your health, your life, and your children's health. Every business where you shop has to have insurance, and the costs of insurance, and all the things businesses have to do to comply with insurance company policies to lower their insurance rates are added into the cost of what ever service or product you buy.

The banks and insurance companies produce nothing tangible, but if you added up how much of your money goes to these two financial systems, you are probably paying more money to them, than you are to the government. At least government returns something tangible.

Of course lurking behind all this is the finance industry, which sucks up all the money. These are the same people we wound up bailing out as their pyramid schemes finally collapsed, being the house of cards that they are.

As the finance industry has increased its bite out of the system, the economy has shut down, and that is what we are seeing.

The government failed to do its job as a watch dog to prevent this privileged sector of our economy from becoming so corrupt, and destructive.

reply to post by sanchoearlyjones


First, the article does nothing to dispute the fact that corporations are either run by the private sector or run by government.

It merely states the obvious, that government has failed to do it's job. Really? It is no big revelation that government failed to do what it was suppose to do. Is anyone truly surprised that government didn't stick to the plan?

I'm not shocked when a dog barks, I'm not shocked when a lion attacks, and I'm not shocked that big business is doing whatever it has to in order to make the most money. Sure, I don't like the fact that big business looks at government and says "If I can corrupt them, that will be profitable for my company" but I also expect it to be true. That is their job, to figure out what is profitable and pursue it if they think they can achieve it. I can't blame a lion that is programmed by nature to attack, when it tries to attack me.

The problem isn't the lion (business) attacking the government, it's the government failing to defend itself, and our failure as people to step in on these attacks. The businesses have been eroding the laws for DECADES, and where were we? Where were we as news came out about the countless news corruption cases, or the repeal of laws that gave companies new powers we knew they shouldn't have? Where were we? We were at home, changing the station.

We allowed business to erode and wear down government by doing nothing to stop it. Without the people, government is but a small group of people who can be corrupted, just like any other small group of people.

It is said that government is suppose to be the voice of the people, but if people become to uninvolved to say anything, it is only a matter of time before business will, by nature, take advantage of that.

Business produces the goods, the government keeps them in check, and we keep government in check. Guess which part of this sentence endured failure? The last part.

This system works. It didn't fail us, we failed it.

reply to post by daptodave


Hi Dave,

See I absolutely believe the current economic crisis is a deliberate act. First was the initial crash last September. Now we are continually seeing bailout money flaunted in front of us by misdeeds.

As far as buying local?? The US economy is GONE. What bying local will do is help small communities survive. As outlined throughout this thread You can see numerous examples of how it is cheaper.

The big box stores came in cheap to wipe out competition, and now have raised their prices; as they are the "company store".

reply to post by eldard


You don't have a bad point. There is/was an emerging online global economy. Why not shop through the net in combination with Your local purchases. The idea is to run the huge conglomerations out of the area..

reply to post by ReelView


Agreed

reply to post by inbound


Everything they do is repetitious. Thanks for pointing that out.

reply to post by praxis


I don't doubt that, but most People aren't ready for rebellion. They are only a little slightly uncomfortable right now. My idea is designed to bring back small community involvement, and the survival of such.

reply to post by thefreepatriot


Agreed

reply to post by poet1b


I know exactly where Your coming from, but it's a concept many People don't see, or understand. I am shooting from the hip, but currently We are taxed up to 50% of Our income.

Now, the point You made is intertwined with Govt. heavily. The reason banks, and Insurance companies can demand payment, or are guaranteed income is through legislation. The representatives are of course bought, and traded to the highest paying special interest lobby.

When looking at the current situation in that respect, it leaves little other choice, but absolute rebellion.........I prefer Civil Disobedience.

reply to post by grimreaper797


Okay, see You, and I have different perspectives of the World. I see govt., and business as twin siblings.......actually I see business as the Pimp, and the govt. as the two-bit street corner prostitute; who should they not do enough dirty deeds the pimp goes mack daddy on her.

Now having that said, the US Govt., the ideology behind it was a govt. of the People, by the People.

It's not supposed to be a separate entity which it has become.

I will not pay for the ignorance of People before me that let my Fellow Americans, and I down. No.........that's what I say.

You Yourself are admitting the whole system is corrupt. I cannot say for sure, but I think Your alluding to live with it, and deal with it. Is that correct?

The problem with that is We ALL have been doing that. Now the govt., the corrupt politicians, corporations, and the Power Broker's who own them all want "We The People" in absolute servitude now. They are changing the "just go along with the old system"........into a new paradigm of absolute totalitarian servitude.

The only thing which will see large amounts of small communities to make it through these trying times is through keeping it local; as much as possible.

In so doing, after the COMING COLLAPSE the rebuilding will be easier.

reply to post by grimreaper797


Of course the government hasn't been doing its job. Under the con job of the free market people elected politicians who had no desire to make government do its job.

This how Newt and the repubs took over congress and got rid of all the laws stopping business from stealing everybody's money. Then all of this happened. This has been going on since the around 97, when the laws were first changed, and the dot com boom was created, once again through failed regulation of business. All the while the companies that were supposed to be managing 401k plans were robbing them. This was followed by the mortgage bubble, and its inevitable bursting.

The more people we can wake up to what a con job the whole free market concept is, the sooner we can get this country back on track. Yeah, government can over regulate business, but under regulation is even worse, because it leads to wide spread crime in business.

It is like taking the refs off of the field during a pro game, in no time flat, everyone will be cheating, the game will start to suck, and somebody will get seriously hurt, if not several people.

When you elect wolves to run the country, of course they are going to act like wolves, and that is what we got with GW and Cheney.

reply to post by sanchoearlyjones


Government can crush big business at any time it pleases. It has the guns, and it has the people backing it. No person will choose to defend big business from government, especially if the business is "breaking the law".

Business is nothing more than a bookie. Sets up the bets, makes all the money, and takes none of the risks. That is exactly what you expect the bookie to do.

I am a realist, plain and simple. Business will always look for the path of least resistance and most profit. They will influence government policy, they will try to get people evicted, they will do whatever they think will benefit them most. That is what I expect a business to do, and that's is what everyone should expect.

If you learned to expect business to do that, and treated them accordingly, we wouldn't be in this mess. If we as a society EXPECTED business to try and screw us if we repeal X law and Y bill, the moment government repealed X law or did not pass Y bill, the people would immediately recognize the problem and correct it at the exact point it becomes a problem.

Too many people are pretending they live in a world where they can make a perfect system where business won't try to corrupt and politicians won't give into that corruption. The system you anticipate is never going to exist because it is created, run, and executed by people. People who are inherently flawed.

Expect the worst from business, 100% of the time, and you won't have any argument as to what laws should be repealed or put in place. Assume a business is going to try and pollute and look for ways to make sure that WHEN they do (not if), you can crush them for their wrong doing.

I expect a murderer to murder, but that doesn't mean I'll sit around idle while he does it. If we don't hold government accountable, then government will not hold big business accountable.

The only problem with the system is us, and our inability to remain vigilant.

reply to post by poet1b


The saddest part of your entire post was the fact you actually believe republicans are the ones to blame. Continue to point the finger though, it is really starting to make a difference.

Obama's 10 year budget will run a 9 trillion dollar deficit. That is all I need to say to destroy any argument for a bigger government. Our government is plenty big and plenty funded, its just big in all the wrong places and funded in all the wrong ways.

Government making laws against dangerous practices isn't bad, government getting funding to make loans themselves, that is dangerous. I am not saying we shouldn't regulate, I'm saying we should have safeguards in place. That invites corruption from business though, so we take on responsibility as a result.

If government had no laws restricting business, business would have no need to involve itself in government, thus we wouldnt have to worry about corruption as much. But as you make more and more laws restricting business, that invites corruption.

As a result, we THE PEOPLE have added responsibility in ensuring that the government be acting accordingly and honestly. THAT is where we have failed, that is where the system has failed. It is not the republicans fault or the democrats fault. We failed our duty as citizens. If we expect business to corrupt in the name of profit, we should also expect the following.

Politicians are human beings, and as a result two things occur: 1. corruption draws in the sharks of the human race, the low of the low, 2. Because they are human they are prone to give into persuasion and promises of wealth. Not all people are so strong willed that they can't be bought out.

Between the two, IT SHOULD BE EXPECTED, that government will give into corruption if left unchecked by the people. That is exactly what has happened.

reply to post by grimreaper797


Hey, We do agree. I am not trying to throw us back to the stone ages. I am only trying to get People to wake up to stark reality of what You just wrote.

Throughout this thread many People have pointed out illicit business practices of some of the major box stores; such as CVS, and Wal Mart. I know the average Person empowers their ability to use unfair business practices....Such as buying the ground out from under the pharmacy next door.

No doubt People are flawed; it's what gives these mega corps so much power. I am only trying to point out that there used to be, and still can be alternatives.

I love technology, but stores like Circuit City, or Chevrolet don't promote that............ The big 3 of ole' in Detroit are prime examples of keeping new innovative automobile technology suppressed; see the movie "death of the electric car".

I work as a tech sales person, and from experience most of the technology that is held off has to do with making the right choice at the right time. There is so many more factors to releasing technology than just "we discovered it, lets release it"

Why would you release a processor that is 10 times more powerful than every other processor out there if no operating system available can currently utilize it's speed?

Why release a gaming system that's graphics can't be utilized by today's televisions? Or release a new cutting edge speaker which no receiver can currently utilize (by utilize I mean meet its potential)?

Why would you release a new gaming system with no developers who can afford to make games for the platform yet?

Why would you release a car with no way to provide the energy needed to power it? Why release a car with no mechanics who have the computer systems to work on it/afford the computer systems to work on it.

Then it becomes a matter of cost. If you make a cutting edge gaming system, and it costs 4000 dollars, you fail right there. A large audience will never be able to afford that. Many developers wouldn't be able to afford making high end games for such a system since sales wouldn't be high enough.

I saw a video of a demo in which I couldn't tell the difference between a computer generated face and a real one. The person actually looked and sounded real. It simply isn't marketable yet. It's application is too expensive and not yet ready for the market.

Consumerism technology is an unfortunate conundrum, but it is what it is. When I say technology advances, I don't necessarily mean public sector consumer technology. I'm talking cutting edge.

Cutting edge technology won't hit the consumer market for a long time, which is why many people would never give money toward furthering it. Places like Walmart and target don't directly do anything to further tech, but they do sell the products of companies who do. If you can find a way to buy from these companies direct, more power to you.

Like I said, there is a big difference between consumer tech, and cutting edge application tech. Consumer tech is prone to delay, as a result of businesses not being in sync with each others, logistical issues with cost or timing, or simple profit greed. Cutting edge tech, which is key to our progression as a race, needs big businesses to fund it.

A star and flag for you my friend.
A couple of other things worth adding. Yard sales, craigs list and newspapers ads. Ask yourself if you really need something to be new or will used be ok. Just another way to stop feeding the beast.

reply to post by infidel666


I thought about making another thread of alternative depression market jobs; that anyone can do. I still might.

Any ways, Yes Craigslist is awesome. They not only have job listings, a ******barter****** area, but also a free area. Totally the way to go in an alternative economy!

reply to post by grimreaper797


The sad part is that after the failure of the Reagan administration and the SNL fiasco, and then the fiasco of the second Bush admin, you refuse to put blame where blame squarely belongs.

Plenty of us were saying for a long time that the policies put in place by the neocons would create this mess, and sure enough they did.

The problem is large numbers of people talking glassy eyed about this free market nonsense. It doesn't exist. When government stops enforcing the rules, business immediately take the short road, because those who don't, will not survive.

First you say

government has failed to do it's job.

Then you say

If government had no laws restricting business, business would have no need to involve itself in government, thus we wouldnt have to worry about corruption as much.

That is nothing but double speak nonsense, from you own point.

You really think killers will stop killing if government stopped enforcing the laws against murder? Business will not stop lying, cheating, and defrauding people out of their money if the government stops making laws to prevent this.

There will always be corruption. There will always be murder. And we will always need to create government to stop both. Clearly you understand that there is no utopia.

Lastly, nobody knows what the deficit will be in ten years. The numbers put up are based on our current economic woes brought on by 8 years of mismanagement by the GW admin. If our economy returns to normal growth that number will shrink, or maybe disappear, it we make another tech break through.

Originally posted by poet1b

The sad part is that after the failure of the Reagan administration and the SNL fiasco, and then the fiasco of the second Bush admin, you refuse to put blame where blame squarely belongs.

You have the republicans who want to completely remove government from business, which is a terrible idea. Then you have the democrat socialists who want to take over entire sectors of business completely, an equally damaging idea.

Both of them suck, and both of them got us here. Stop acting like one party is to blame, because we voted them both into office.

Plenty of us were saying for a long time that the policies put in place by the neocons would create this mess, and sure enough they did.

The problem is large numbers of people talking glassy eyed about this free market nonsense. It doesn't exist. When government stops enforcing the rules, business immediately take the short road, because those who don't, will not survive.

I have no disagreement that they pushed for failed policies. Unfortunately, the policies of the opposing party, are just as bad in the complete opposite direction.

First you say

government has failed to do it's job.

Then you say

If government had no laws restricting business, business would have no need to involve itself in government, thus we wouldnt have to worry about corruption as much.

That is nothing but double speak nonsense, from you own point.

You must have misunderstood. The government has failed to do it's job. My second point does not contradict the first statement at all. It is a fact that if the government didn't involve itself at all in business that business would not need to involve itself in government, thus cutting corruption down. You simply failed to read the rest of the paragraph where I explained this.

You really think killers will stop killing if government stopped enforcing the laws against murder? Business will not stop lying, cheating, and defrauding people out of their money if the government stops making laws to prevent this.

I never said they would. In fact I said quite the opposite in the post you quoted me in. I said it should be expected that killers will kill and that business will cheat and corrupt, EVEN IF GOVERNMENT GETS INVOLVED.

There will always be corruption. There will always be murder. And we will always need to create government to stop both. Clearly you understand that there is no utopia.

That is exactly what I said, and I said it is our fault for failing to keep government in check. The government didn't do it's job of keeping business in check to ensure our rights as citizens.

Lastly, nobody knows what the deficit will be in ten years. The numbers put up are based on our current economic woes brought on by 8 years of mismanagement by the GW admin. If our economy returns to normal growth that number will shrink, or maybe disappear, it we make another tech break through.

This is by far one of the saddest and most disillusioned posts I have seen in recent times. First off, the deficit for the fiscal year of 2010 is 1.5 trillion. For the next 10 its 9 trillion total. That number is from the white house themselves. Those numbers aren't just a result of the current economic woes brought by bush. We were TRILLIONS of dollars in debt before bush ever took office. This has been a problem sprouting back since before JFK was president.

Now there is no doubt that the war mongering and the poor ideology of the neocons has dug us into a huge hole. But just the same, If you look at the national debt since the 1940's, it has never really gone down. At best, it stayed the same, at worst, it skyrocketed. Wars cause it to skyrocket because government is outsourcing war funds to big business who overcharge us for everything.

From the beginning of ww2 to the end, we went from less than 1 trillion dollars of debt to over 3 trillion.

My point is though, that this isn't a new monster, this has been looming for decades and was only a matter of time if we left government unchecked. This problem is here to stay.

This problem is here to stay because there is no way to pay for all the new programs obama has created. There is no way to pay for the bailouts. There is no way to pay for universal healthcare. There is no way to pay for the countless wars. There is no way to pay for any of it, yet we continue to spend. The day that Obama starts creating surpluses, or even just refusing any budget that isn't balanced, that is when I will vote him in for a second term.

He spends like the money grows on trees and there is no consequences. He has kept all the bad habits of the previous administration alive and well. The sooner you realize that, the better.

Originally posted by Tentickles

Makes me sick we have no say in our government anymore!

Do you vote?

Do You know how to write to our Senators, Representatives, or even the President?

Anyone stopping you from exercising that right?

Anyone lately violate your freedom of speech?

I doubt it.





[edit on 28-8-2009 by TSer78]

The thing is we cannot do any real change if we try to build a new system within the system. We need to drop all of this that we got now and walk into something new. This can be done rather easy, its just a matter of a change in our consciousness.

reply to post by TSer78


The problem with voting is the false paradigm of a two party system. Look at the major players in Washington. They all went to the same Ivy League schools, and many times are family; they are Illuminists for the most part. They teach us to hate the next Person because they are demo/repub; yet, it's alright for them to have ties waste deep.... On that note Diebold machines decide the vote. Those machines are getting crammed down Our throats, and aren't worth a plug nickel; they are rigged.

reply to post by InOurNature


What I proposed in the 7 items are already implemented across the USA in small communities. The govt. doesn't like to talk about it, but the cash society, or underground economy has always been big, and strong. I am only trying to spread an existing idea on to more suburbanites, or city dwellers.

The fact is the USA is in death throws before collapse; believe me now, or later makes no difference to me, but death throws still the same. We all must learn to make due now, before hard times come........ Should We be prepared, no one will suffer.

reply to post by grimreaper797


You mean because democrats want to provide universal health care so they therefore want to take over entire sectors of business? If that is the case, then spell it out man, stop tip toeing around the issue. The bigger question is, should preying on people who are sick or ill, or afraid of becoming sick or ill and being able to pay for it, be a business for profit?

Sorry, but this claim that republicans want to completely remove government from business is completely false. This is just a con job on the part of the republicans. What do you think the military industrial complex is all about? Who do you think paid for building a railroad across the continent?

You think government shouldn't finance R&D, but government has always financed R&D, and very successfully. The problem is more that government doesn't do enough to protect the property rights of the people who actually do produce the technology. Most corporations steal the intellectual property rights of individuals, and that is a huge problem.

Yeah, you are completely contradicting yourself, you have just created so many metaphors about the situation, you have succeeded in fooling yourself.

Businesses (more accurately crooks) will always seek to cheat the system through corruption, whether or not government is involved. Business will always seek to corrupt government, whether or not government works to keep corruption in business in check.

If government doesn't do its job of regulating business, which is preventing crime and corruption in business, then everyone who conducts business will be forced into turning into a criminal. This is the problem that the free market concept has created. Do you recognize this?

There will always be corruption in business and in government. When the people don't vote for politicians who aim to make government work to eliminate corruption in business as much as is possible, Then corruption in business, and in government, gets far worse.

This concept that if government didn't involve itself in business, that business wouldn't involve itself in government is pure fantasy.

I will address the deficit in another post.

reply to post by grimreaper797


Actually, the U.S. government did substantially reduce it's debt after WW II. By the end of the fifties government debt was reduce to a very reasonable percentage of GDP. It isn't about how much government owes, it is how much government owes in ratio to GDP. Carrying debt is a natural process of government and business. It is only when debt starts to spiral out of control that if becomes a problem.

When did the U.S. deficits become a problem?

Under Ronald Reagan, when Reagan took us from being a net creditor nation to a net debtor nation, which was a result of the foolish free market concepts.

If you do your research, you will find that there has been direct correlation with the concentration of wealth and national debt here in the U.S. What the republicans have done is redistribute the wealth from the middle class, which includes earners from the top 80% to the top 99.9 percent, to the super rich, the top .001% of earners through the free market con job.

Almost all of our federal debt was created under republican admins. Eight years of deficits under Reagan, 4 years of deficits under GH Bush. Clinton cut the deficit almost in half in the first few years he was in office, bringing government debt under control before repubs ever took over congress. The GW Bush admin, once again huge deficits for eight years.

For you to blame Obama for the huge deficits he inherited from GW is ludicrous. All these repub mouth pieces making this claim are only succeeding in making themselves look like fools.

Yeah, the white house budget prediction state that our nation may increase debt by 10T over the next ten years, but that is only a projection. This is based on our economy failing to recover adequately during this period.

With good leadership working to reduce corruption in business as much as possible, and some technological innovations, we could recover economically, and the government deficits could be brought under control. If the federal government starts taking action to rebuild the middle class, then federal deficits will stop being such a problem because our economy will start to grow again. Your claims that the Obama admins budget projections mean that they are incompetent is nonsense. They are only being honest about how things MIGHT go, which is a nice refreshing break from the dishonesty of the GW admin.

The super rich should be taxed to pay back the huge debt built up by repub admins, that made them rich in the first place. the middle class of the U.S. should not be forced to support an army to be the world's policemen, which really only serves to support the interests of International Corporations, who do not pay for all this military support.

If the federal government is not going to start providing universal health care to people then it needs to slash income tax on individuals down to about 5%, or maybe less, because our government is not giving anything back to the people for their tax dollars.

As far as Obama's health care plan, I don't like it because it makes health care part of the cost of using U.S. workers, while everywhere else in the first world, health care cost is being carried by the government. This puts U.S. workers at a considerable disadvantage in the world wide labor market.

reply to post by sanchoearlyjones


I completely agree, there needs to be redundancy in the the voting process. I don't trust those Diebold machines at all.

Our two party system is not serving our interests, something needs to change.

I think an underground economy is the way to go. This would be the best way to start an economic revolution.