Evolution Is Fact, Not Theory

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posted on May, 13 2004 @ 11:59 AM
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Please take the time to read this:

There are a lot of people in this world today that continually attack science. These people have been doing this for thousands of years. Early scientists were often in conflict with the church, and some were put to death for putting forth outrageous "theories". Just a couple examples of these insane theories could be "The Earth is not the center of the universe", and "the Earth is round rather than flat".

Evolution is right in line with scientific principals that are attacked by the church as many have been over the years. If someone takes the time to look into evolutionary principals and examples, and keeps an objective mind (not biased by a religion or fear of being related to other animals), there can be no refuting the evolution DOES occur right in front of our eyes. It has been occurring since life formed on this planet.

Lets get a very general idea of what evolution is. There are many different ideas of how and why it has been occurring. This is because there are many different factors that need to be considered when dealing with evolution. The most basic way I feel it can be put is like this. Evolution is the adaptation of any given species to its environment over time in order to survive. Evolution occurs slowly over time with gradual changes. It also occurs quickly in some cases (relatively speaking) when large scale disasters or severe climate changes occur.

There are more examples to this that can be seen with your eyes than most people think. Take the Beagle, or the Pug for example. Both of these dogs were "man made". I have heard plenty of arguments that human interference means that evolution is not occuring. That argument is not logical. To the Pug or the Beagle, humans are part of the environment. For whatever reason applicable at the time, we encouraged certain traits of the Pug to reproduce. Just as cold weather could encourage certain traits to reproduce.

Humans have forced many animals to evolve. This fact alone is PROOF that evolution exists. We may not understand it fully as of now, but it occurs. Humans have forced many types of plants to evolve. Another example of evolution caused by humans deals with the Samurai Crab (Heike Crab).

The Heike Crab, as we know it today bears a 3d human face on its back. Its actually pretty cool to see. Whats even more interesting is how it got there. A little short of 1000 years ago, this crab did not bear a face on its back. I am going to explain now how it got there.

To start this off, I will make a point. When humans have a child, he/she usually bears some traits from the father and some traits from the mother. The child will also bear SOME TRAITS UNIQUE TO ITSELF.

With that point being made, I will get back to the Heike Crab. Due to some superstitions. People of Japan feel that there are souls of dead samurai fighters wondering the bottom of the ocean. As there evidence, they can provide crabs bearing what appears to be a human face. It resembles a samurai. What we know now is that people put these faces on the crab....without even knowing it. When I made the reference to human children having unique traits of their own above, I was making a point. Crabs reproduce and their offspring have their own unique traits as well. Somewhere along the line, one of these crabs had something that more than likely, ever so slightly, resembled a human face. Due to the superstitions, the people would not eat it, and consequently, it was thrown back in the water. Now, crabs that had similar markings to this one were also thrown in. These crabs, were now, more likely to survive because people would not eat them. Therefore, they were more likely to reproduce, and pass on genes that enabled them to survive. Though each individual crab will have its own traits, it will also bear traits of the parent crabs (the face). These crabs developed a tool, that better prepared them to survive in the environment that they lived in. The people were this environment, and it was not forced intentionally like the Pug or Beagle. Now the face is very apparent on these crabs, due to the many years of unintended favoratism. It is nearly mystical if you do not know how it occured.

Other examples of evolution are more subtle. People try to explain these away by changing the name of it from evolution to "micro evolution" and other such things. Call it what you want, it is still evolution. Has anyone reading this ever had a flu shot, or known someone who has? Why take the flu shot if the white blood cells in your body will not adapt and evolve to fight the new virus? If the cells cannot evolve, then the shot is worthless. Has anyone reading this ever taken an anti-biotic? If you are taking the anti-biotic for a bacterial infection, you are often told to maintain your daily doses even if the symptoms disapear. Why would this be? It is because, in some instances, though rare, when you stop taking the anti-biotic (which is killing the bacteria), there are still a few bacteria left even if the symptoms are gone. These bacteria though have something special going on. They were able to withstand the anti-biotic for a long time. Now, they are the only ones left alive and to reproduce. When they do reproduce, you have a super strain of bacteria that has a built in immunity to the anti-biotic.

Now to tie this into religion more, there are plenty of occurrances in the Bible that can't be logical without evolution. There are many aspects of faith that can't be valid without it. None of it, in any way negates the existence of God. It does attack the creation story in the Bible.

There are many things I want to say, but this is getting far too long. In closing, I hear arguments all the time about evolution. Arguments about how it cannot exist. The problem is that it does exist at least on some level. We use it to our benefit as humans. We can force it, we can indirectly cause it, and we can watch it happen on its own. The people who cannot at least accept this are lying to themselves. They are lying to others, and doing an injustice to their ability to think rationally as most human beings can.

My thanks to the late Carl Sagan and his Book the Cosmos.


[Edited on 5/13/2004 by Seapeople]




posted on May, 13 2004 @ 04:26 PM
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OK, interesting, but I want you to consider this. I used to believe in evolution. Not the other way around, I stopped believing in it through research. Although you told some nice stories, they had nothing to do with evolution. In fact none of the instances you provided had anything to do with evolution. That is called adaption, adaption is possible, evolution has nothing to do with the passing on of traits. I mean of course traits get passed on, What would happen if aliens decided they like the taste of human, well except for black people. In a thousand years, the whole earth would be black people, does that mean they were the strongest? No, that means they simply did not get plucked up and eaten just like your crab anologie. All the things you listed had nothing to do with evolution. I am sure things can change, but you misunderstand that, they will change if the change is already written in their DNA code, in other words the info is in there, but they are not using it yet. What gives you the idea that questioning evolution is some sort of religious ceremony, like we a practice it. WTF seriously , lay off the religion bashing, maybe you should read up on what other Biologist, DNA specialist, and other scientist are saying. This is not just a Christion, or Muslim, or Jewish thing, just because you question somthing does that make you ignorant, isn't that what you go ranting on and on about in this forum, that people don't question things enough. I mean come on , seriously man , no offense but come back with some hard evidence, not little stories that are not even relivent. Hey but I seriously thought the crab story was kick ass. I wouldn't eat one either



posted on May, 13 2004 @ 04:28 PM
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Oh and micro evolution is used by evolutionist, so it is not a word that some backwood Christion made up. Its not "what WE call it" its what everyone calls it. Its a word.



posted on May, 13 2004 @ 04:31 PM
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My point wasn't that it was a christian thing. My point was that christians tend to seperate that from evolution. The fact is, micro evolution IS evolution. You can construe it any way you want to, and you will still have a living organism EVOLVING to accomodate its environment.



posted on May, 13 2004 @ 04:32 PM
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Oh, and explain to me the difference between evolution and adaptation? And about the aliens eating a certain race of people. The race that they did not eat was simply better equipped to survive period. Is the false cobra as powerful as the king cobra? No, but it manages to survive based on its genes. It scares off predators. Was it always the false cobra that we know today? No, because at one time it had legs....which we know for a fact, and through the process of evolution....it didnt need them any more.



[Edited on 5/13/2004 by Seapeople]



posted on May, 13 2004 @ 04:38 PM
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Adaption, is the body, or a living organism changing to adapt to his enviroment, yes, but he can only change, or adapt, by using the dna information that he is already built with.

Evolution wuold generate a whole other set of DNA Structers containing new info. "This is extremely lamens turms"

And no that was not my point, the other race was not stronger, it simply just did not run into the same set of circumstnces that the others did.

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by infovacume]



posted on May, 13 2004 @ 04:44 PM
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would you care to continue this later tonight? I have to go to comp usa to get componets for my CarPC



posted on May, 14 2004 @ 06:37 AM
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All living things on earth have DNA. How much do you think DNA samples from a dog and a human differ? Would you say, they are very different? Someonewhere in the middle? Or would you say that they are very close?

You see, there is not much difference AT ALL with any DNA present in living mamals. What happened to the snakes legs? The snake resembles a lizard. It has the scales, and the eyes. It has the general reptilian appearance. Yet, all it has left are two stumps for back legs and joints in the shouldners at the front. What happened to its legs? If it never had them, why does it have these features?



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 12:38 AM
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I am not sure on the snake, seams odd that somthing would loose legs instead of gaining them, but like I said I will have to look into that for. But then again people used to say that whales had bones thats used to be legs but then they fouind out the were bones that muscle wrapped around so it could mate. And as far as the first question, we are 25% daisy flower, so I would assume there is not that huge of a difference from a dog to us, but then again that is one of the evolutionist biggest arguing points, that we are almost 98% ape. So those kind of negat themselves dont they? Or atleast in this argument. That is the reason I don't believe, because if I am 25% daisy, then I know it is possible to be 98% Ape, and not be related.



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 07:28 AM
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I have to support both the first statement and the second one.

Yes, the whole aliens eating whites and not black is a good point, but it does support "survival of the fittest". Fittest (in this case) does not mean strongest. It only implies that the survivors were the ones best adapted/suited for the situation.

Not trying to disprove your whole argument, because you're right; the first statement made didn't include evolution, it just included Darwinist thoughts and beliefs.

I believe evolution 100%. The church just has to start facing the facts that the Bible isn't meant to be taken literally and give in to the evidence. Some historian read the Bible through and checked all the dates back, and found that it was created around (I forgot the exact year, it was about 3 years ago that I heard this interesting fact, I'll check for it soon)October 2050 B.C.. Is this correct? Well, since we're taking the Bible literally, I guess that modern science is wrong! Carbon dating is wrong, there really weren't any Dinosaurs, and also, Humans have been around a couple days shorter than rocks! From the non-literal approach, we'll tack on an extra, say... 25,000 years? Since maybe the one week to create the world is off. But why would that be off? Did it take "God" a while to make the world? Wow, He's so great, and so controlling, yet He can't make a whole world in seven days, when He is the all powerful? I think I'll give him about 200 years, just so all the plants can grow and such (Even though He can do that himself). Now how about Adam, we'll add an extra 20 years so he can be a fully-grown man (also at the higher end of his life-span). A little longer for Eve (maybe 4 years?). All right, now that we're at about 2500 B.C. (and I'm being generous with my years here), let's add about 3,000 years for any passages left out of the Bible, or missed dates, or times when the Bible wasn't written (if that even exists). Cool, the world was created in, 5500 B.C.?

Darwinism is true.


[Edited on 15-5-2004 by TallShaffer]



posted on May, 15 2004 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by infovacume
Adaption, is the body, or a living organism changing to adapt to his enviroment, yes, but he can only change, or adapt, by using the dna information that he is already built with.


I dont agree, you are saying that when an organism is born, it only knows what it knows, that all it's knowledge was given to it at one time, and it can't learn anymore. Looking at my pets, for example, that is not true. I think that an organisms DNA CAN learn new things. And, I dont believe ALL of the knowledge is necessarily isolated to ONLY the DNA. I'm no expert on this subject obviously, but I think nature is smarter than that.



posted on May, 17 2004 @ 12:45 AM
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Well, I am not talking about the mental ability to learn. Of course I can learn I new language, but I can't learn how to grow gills and flippers.



posted on May, 17 2004 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by infovacume
Well, I am not talking about the mental ability to learn. Of course I can learn I new language, but I can't learn how to grow gills and flippers.


You can't learn that because you have no need to. You see, you say its weird that the snake lost them instead of gained them. Its weird that you say that because you posted once before in another thread how life couldn't evolve forward or something. And one of the people you agreed with even cited entropy as a cause for that.

In any case, you see....how do snakes hunt. They are quiet, low to the ground. The slither instead of step adding to their stealthy capabilities. Over time, the snakes with shorter legs were able to maneuver better in the underbrush. Therefore being more able to eat and capture prey. Therefore more likely to survive and reproduce. Making it much more likely that their offspring would have shorter legs too. Until there were none. Simple really. Go take a look at a snake. You can see where the legs used to be. Look at an x-ray of one. You can see the shoulder joints...their back legs are like small stumps...they can still move.



posted on May, 17 2004 @ 09:25 AM
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I have an idea. I am going to ask a series of questions. Answer truthfully Infovacume (or anyone else).

1) Do humans and all other animals pass their genes (DNA) onto the next generation?

2) If an animal had a random genetic trait that enables it to climb trees better to get food, when there was a lack available food on the ground, would it be more or less likely to survive? Answer more or less.

3) Would the animals that were able to climb trees had a better chance of surviving, would they also not have a better chance of reproducing?

4) Would these animals pass on their genes to the next generation? Refer to question 1.

5) Would that trait that enabled them to climb in trees be exagerated in this certain species?

6) Would that mean that the animals that were more well equipped to eat on the ground have more or less of a chance to survive?

7) Would the traits that enable the animal to eat on the ground, when in a case of limited food source there for a long period of time exists, be more or less likely to be passed on to the next generation?

Ill ask more when you are through with those infovacume.



posted on May, 18 2004 @ 01:33 AM
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I cant believe with all the great biblical subjects to be debated I continually find the concept of evolution rearing its ugly head.

The bible is not literal. Read between the lines. It is a beautiful allegory refering to your souls journey through egypt (physical existence).

The only reason the ancients didnt put a disclaimer on the bible declaring it fiction was that the writers couldnt concieve of people degrading to the level required to believe it as literal truth. What a dark morass we have come to find ourselves in and what is to be done to rectify the situation?

Thanks for your input tallshaffer I really found it to be refreshing.

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by radiant]



posted on May, 18 2004 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by radiant
I cant believe with all the great biblical subjects to be debated I continually find the concept of evolution rearing its ugly head.

The bible is not literal. Read between the lines. It is a beautiful allegory refering to your souls journey through egypt (physical existence).

The only reason the ancients didnt put a disclaimer on the bible declaring it fiction was that the writers couldnt concieve of people degrading to the level required to believe it as literal truth. What a dark morass we have come to find ourselves in and what is to be done to rectify the situation?

Thanks for your input tallshaffer I really found it to be refreshing.

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by radiant]


I thought that we did a good job at debating all fronts of the Bible on here. I continually put ideas out there, with little or no response. Evolution is just another topic, that NEEDS its head to pop out of the ground. If we continue to let people believe in things blindly, then how will they ever be able to make decisions on their own? Anyone, who feels that evolution does not exist is misinformed. They are listening to irrational explanations from religious leaders or their friends and family who have also been listening to religious leaders. They are afraid of the implications that these concepts bring, just as they were afraid many times in the past about various other scientific ideas....you know...all that world is round, world is not the center of the universe "NONSENSE". People were killed for believing that. Religion is blinding.

It is terrible to see how people cast aside logic and reason and fact....for a book written over the course of several thousand years if not more.. Most christians could not tell me that they have read the bible through, cover to cover, even once. I would argue that 99% of christians never do that. Yet they criticize me and others who have taken the time to go through it. They have the nerve to say that they believe it fully, when they can't even say that they have read it. This applies to most people who argue with me on here (though im sure not all). Refusing to see the truth could only lead them away from God.

I have to go now, Dueteronomy wants me to go stone someone for being raped..... So I have to get an angry christian mob to help me, then after that, Leviticus wants me to sacrifice cows and pour the blood over my childs head. (Direct instructions from God mind you.) After that, I think I am going to go have intercourse with my two twin daughters and have a child with them....as shown in Genesis. Hopefully this will all allow me to be taken by the rapture, which really was never mentioned in the Bible so I can't refer you too it.



posted on May, 18 2004 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople

Originally posted by radiant
I cant believe with all the great biblical subjects to be debated I continually find the concept of evolution rearing its ugly head.

The bible is not literal. Read between the lines. It is a beautiful allegory refering to your souls journey through egypt (physical existence).

The only reason the ancients didnt put a disclaimer on the bible declaring it fiction was that the writers couldnt concieve of people degrading to the level required to believe it as literal truth. What a dark morass we have come to find ourselves in and what is to be done to rectify the situation?

Thanks for your input tallshaffer I really found it to be refreshing.

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by radiant]


I thought that we did a good job at debating all fronts of the Bible on here. I continually put ideas out there, with little or no response. Evolution is just another topic, that NEEDS its head to pop out of the ground. If we continue to let people believe in things blindly, then how will they ever be able to make decisions on their own? Anyone, who feels that evolution does not exist is misinformed. They are listening to irrational explanations from religious leaders or their friends and family who have also been listening to religious leaders. They are afraid of the implications that these concepts bring, just as they were afraid many times in the past about various other scientific ideas....you know...all that world is round, world is not the center of the universe "NONSENSE". People were killed for believing that. Religion is blinding.

It is terrible to see how people cast aside logic and reason and fact....for a book written over the course of several thousand years if not more.. Most christians could not tell me that they have read the bible through, cover to cover, even once. I would argue that 99% of christians never do that. Yet they criticize me and others who have taken the time to go through it. They have the nerve to say that they believe it fully, when they can't even say that they have read it. This applies to most people who argue with me on here (though im sure not all). Refusing to see the truth could only lead them away from God.

I have to go now, Dueteronomy wants me to go stone someone for being raped..... So I have to get an angry christian mob to help me, then after that, Leviticus wants me to sacrifice cows and pour the blood over my childs head. (Direct instructions from God mind you.) After that, I think I am going to go have intercourse with my two twin daughters and have a child with them....as shown in Genesis. Hopefully this will all allow me to be taken by the rapture, which really was never mentioned in the Bible so I can't refer you too it.


Wow I can't believe you just said that, how rude and imature, so let me get this straight, anyone who disagrees with what mainstreem Science says is blind, and only following what the "leaders of the relgious community say" you are incredibly misinformed, the sad part is , that we are having a debate right now and yet you "who is supposed to be informed have presented no factiual evidences of evolution, and yet on top of that you present it as so mainstreem that it should be so easy anyone can do it.



posted on May, 18 2004 @ 11:56 PM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
I have an idea. I am going to ask a series of questions. Answer truthfully Infovacume (or anyone else).

1) Do humans and all other animals pass their genes (DNA) onto the next generation?

Yes they do , but they do not create new ones...

2) If an animal had a random genetic trait that enables it to climb trees better to get food, when there was a lack available food on the ground, would it be more or less likely to survive? Answer more or less.

Well to start off , that it is highly unlikely that a random Genetic trait would allow somthing so large in change , but to answer your question more. But then again everyone would die off , therfore leaving him with no mate, and ending the species.

3) Would the animals that were able to climb trees had a better chance of surviving, would they also not have a better chance of reproducing?

Doesn't make sense, you are assuming that this "random gentic trait" would accidentaly happen to others at the same time. Thats not random. But to answer I would say yes obviously.

4) Would these animals pass on their genes to the next generation? Refer to question 1.

Not neccesarily, it is all by chance.

5) Would that trait that enabled them to climb in trees be exagerated in this certain species?
No, maybe, who knows, I would go with no.

6) Would that mean that the animals that were more well equipped to eat on the ground have more or less of a chance to survive?

More since there would be less strain on their eating source since others have resorted to eating whats up in the trees, so they would auctually flurish, or remain the same as before.

7) Would the traits that enable the animal to eat on the ground, when in a case of limited food source there for a long period of time exists, be more or less likely to be passed on to the next generation?

More, well hold on there is no more or less , they would since Genetic material is not concious nor can it make decisions to change, it would not know, and therfor go on doing what it has always done.
Ill ask more when you are through with those infovacume.


I would be more than happy to continue, but I am unsure of what we are debating, I thought we were going over evolution, you keep on bringing up Darwansim which is tottaly different, and not even upheld by the scientific community.



posted on May, 19 2004 @ 07:35 AM
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Infovacume...I would first off like to say that I am not immature. Answer me this. Were hundreds of thousands of people killed for disagreeing with the CHRISTIAN church over the years? Were they killed for believing things like the earth was not the center of the universe? Yes or no.....no further explanation. You look into things too much when you do that. You see, these things did occur.

Now, are you catholic? Just curious.

You see, people like you try to twist things around. What I described is based in darwinism yes, but it is not darwinism. In darwinism, we evolved from monkeys. I never once said this was the case. I said, simply, and clearly, that evolution does exist. Even if its on a microscopic level...it does exist. For crying out loud, your refusal to see this is clear evidence that my statements were not rude. Everyone here can see that I was right...at least when it comes to you. You are blind.

I offered bible debate with you. I shut your mouth real quick.. You didnt respond to anything. You couldn't. because you dont know the bible well enough (typical christian). I was still cool about everything. I offered debate about Noah and Creation as you requested, which I got nothing from you on other then opinion and regurgitated information that you probably heard in church. I get a response for this, one that is based in nothing but anger. Nice.....

People like you need to go read the bible. If you folowed your doctrine word for word....YOU WOULD BE IN JAIL. So get over the fear of reality. Life evolves on this planet, period. We may not know all the specifics. All we know is that it evolves....or as some people put it (and there is no difference) adapts.....

You make comments all the time that make me laugh....I like the one about Einstien.....nice.....



posted on May, 20 2004 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by Seapeople
"Infovacume...I would first off like to say that I am not immature. Answer me this. Were hundreds of thousands of people killed for disagreeing with the CHRISTIAN church over the years?"

Not sure about the number or how about you come upon it, but were Christians and other religious groups not also killed because of there belief, I can think of about 7 million off the top of my head.

" Were they killed for believing things like the earth was not the center of the universe? Yes or no.....no further explanation. You look into things too much when you do that. You see, these things did occur."

Yes, but then again you are talking about the Catholic Church not the Christian religion. So your point is....Did you know that that Cathoilic scientist helped tremedously with new age science revolution?

"Now, are you catholic? Just curious. "

Nope I am non-denomenational

"You see, people like you try to twist things around. "
How is that?

"What I described is based in darwinism yes, but it is not darwinism."

What did you just say?Sounds like you are the one twisting things around, hey you sound like John Kerry, any relation?

" In darwinism, we evolved from monkeys."

Rofl are you kidding me, yeah thats it, that was his whole theory, lol come on man I hope you were being sarcastic

" I never once said this was the case. I said, simply, and clearly, that evolution does exist. Even if its on a microscopic level...it does exist.""

Ok so where is your evidense, should be easy to come by... ? Right....?

"For crying out loud, your refusal to see this is clear evidence that my statements were not rude. Everyone here can see that I was right...at least when it comes to you. You are blind. "

lol again you are the one cracking me up and making me laugh, I answered you loaded questions just how you wanted me to, but your gun was pointed at you and only furthered my point , not my fault, it was yours...

"I offered bible debate with you. I shut your mouth real quick.. You didnt respond to anything. You couldn't. because you dont know the bible well enough (typical christian)."

Wow keeping on proving my point, "that your imature" did I not say I FELL THROUGH A CIELING I ALMOST DIED , do you want pics, you are no were near the top of my prioritie list, so get a grip I was cut in three places down my gut to my kidneys, and yes you are correct, I am not Bible scholar, but then again I have never said I was, guess it is a good thing I llive with one though, his 35+ years of experience helps... And again you go on creating false steareo types about christions, again real mature.

"I was still cool about everything. I offered debate about Noah and Creation as you requested, which I got nothing from you on other then opinion and regurgitated information that you probably heard in church. I get a response for this, one that is based in nothing but anger. Nice....."

Woah dude relax, no one is filled with anger, I was dissapointed that you went to the extreems you do, I thought I found somone who I could finnaly have mature reasonable debates with, I am starting to think this is not the case. If anyone is mad it is you, which is evident in your post. I was not mad, just offended. And again stop assuming I run Bible in hand to go ask the Preacher the answer to your questions. LOL I make decisions on my own as I am sure you do, the difference is I don't assume you go running to the A.C.L.U and other liberal Christians bashers for your questions.

"People like you need to go read the bible. If you folowed your doctrine word for word....YOU WOULD BE IN JAIL. So get over the fear of reality. Life evolves on this planet, period."

Ok then were is the proof? Prove it to me, you have yet to do so. Show me how, do you see my point? That you think it is so freaking obvious, and yet you can not prove it, I even answered all your "purdy" little loaded questions the way you wanted me too just so I could see your point, but you sir are the one that did not respond to them.

"We may not know all the specifics. All we know is that it evolves....or as some people put it (and there is no difference) adapts..... "

Ok its not about knowing the specifics, I understand you there, but it is about the "theory" standing up to scientifc standards that it can't and yes there is a difference between the Evoltion we are speaking of and adaption, I can move to the desert and adapt by not drinking so much water, and only doing so when I need to, If I were to evolve I would develope a way not to need water. "lamens turms"


"You make comments all the time that make me laugh....I like the one about Einstien.....nice....."

As well as you, epescially the ones where you get up and proclaim another problem "you" have found with the Bible, and then when it is explained "not saying them all, don't get your panties in a bunch" you wiggle out of them and attack the person who answeres your question. And what was the Einstein quote or paraphraze that you thought was so funny? Look if you want to have a debate , cool, but don't go flying off the handle because you don't like the response that you get. If you don't like being called imature, than dont act "like" it, ok , you are right I should of not called you imature, I should have said you were acting imature. Its up to you to continue,

:shk:


[Edited on 20-5-2004 by infovacume]





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