Report: Israel to freeze settlements in exchange for tougher Iran sanctions

reply to post by Rook1545


People live side by side in Jerusalem fine.

That hasn't always been the case however - prior to 1967 (when Israel retook East Jerusalem) Christians and Jews were barred from their holy sites in the Jordanian occupied bits.

Not so now. Anyone can visit or buy property anywhere in Jerusalem. Regardless of their religion.

Thanks to Israel.

reply to post by dzonatas


Nope, Like this

www.adl.org...

reply to post by buddhasystem

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
shall we talk about how Israel treats christians?

Originally posted by Rook1545
Yes, I think we should. The spitting, the throwing things at them. That is religious tolerance.

How Israel treats Christians.

Not how certain ultra-orthadox Jews treat Christians.

Do you see the difference?

The first one attempts to characterize an entire nation and all of its people. That is hatred, and it is false, and it is libellous, and it is called victimization.

It amazes me that people are coming out with statements like this and don't even realise they're doing it.

reply to post by CuteAngel


I am sorry you will have to do better than that. The ADL is an Israeli propaganda site. Give me BBC or some other site that will at least pretend to be objective

reply to post by Rook1545


So how are we supposed to know about ancient history apart from the recordings in scriptures as well as other manuscripts. The last ones to conquer the land were the British and as a rule they were free to do what they want off it. As far as oppression goes the last I remember was the holocaust.

Peace.

reply to post by Rook1545


Google Images impartial enough for you? Or is that a Zionist conspiracy as well?

It fascinates me that people can be so blinded by their prejudices that they refuse to see the truth when it's right in front of them!

reply to post by buddhasystem


Well, if Fascist Islam would just spit on you and leave it would be a minor problem that can be handled. If they carry out suicide bombings and shoot the ever lovin # outa ya it gets real ugly...

Please stay on topic and refrain from commenting on fellow members.

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by buddhasystem

 

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
shall we talk about how Israel treats christians?

Originally posted by Rook1545
Yes, I think we should. The spitting, the throwing things at them. That is religious tolerance.

How Israel treats Christians.

Not how certain ultra-orthadox Jews treat Christians.

Do you see the difference?

The first one attempts to characterize an entire nation and all of its people. That is hatred, and it is false, and it is libellous, and it is called victimization.

It amazes me that people are coming out with statements like this and don't even realise they're doing it.

So only you are are allowed to use wide and sweeping generalizations? Don't deny you have, every time the Muslim vs Jew argument comes up you paint the Muslims as bad and murderous. Why do you hate them so much?

Since the Orthodox Jews have a heavy hand in Israeli politics, they have a tremendous amount of control over Israeli daily life. Why else would nothing have been done to those people outlined in that video? If that was a Christian or a Muslim spitting on a Jew, they would have been thrown in jail or worse. The orthodox clergy controls who is a real a jew and who isn't, as evidenced here:

Although most Jews are secular, Orthodox Judaism has considerable
authority to regulate life in Israel through their control over marriages, burials, recognition of whether an individual is Jewish, issuance of Kosher certificates to restaurants, and other items. This generates friction among , Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews, as well as secularists.

Religious Intolerance dot Org

Speaking of the "spitting incident", I just happen to be an Orthodox Christian and belong to the same Patriarchate where it all happened (although don't actively practice religion at this point).

I spent time alongside Jews and Arabs on three different continents and nobody spat on me or each other

I don't generalize. However, the link and the Israeli paper regarding this seem to be consistent in their description of the situation.

But above all, it doesn't have much to do with the thread topic

So, again: land grabs are illegal no matter what. Israel's stance on settlements, therefore, is quite deplorable. I say let's take our time with the sanctions and wait till Israel returns to its original borders.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Well I was just trying to give a scenario on extremism thats all
As far as land ownership goes, the land would belong to the nation that last conquered it and I believe it was the British. Thats why I mentioned in my previous post if you believe that land belongs to someone based on history or conquest...

reply to post by mattpryor

Originally posted by dzonatas

Originally posted by CuteAngel
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

I have seen 10 and 12 year olds being trained for purpose of murder, to use AK-47s

You mean like this?

Okay, Matt so far You've really been all over the map with absolutely wacko things. When someone proves You wrong to the point of no coming back; You change gears by calling them a Jew hater, or by claiming they are someone else.

Hey, while Your at throwing Poo maybe You could accuse me. I am no fool, and can completely change up my grammer, spelling, and prose....... No, now it's more fun to call a girl proto.........

Beyond that You took the presented photo above; which has plenty of illegal settler aggression to back it up, and defended with the first page of google.


***************A BIT LAZY******** Since the page You pulled up had dead Palestinian Babies that were killed in the last Gaza Genocide.

Your absolutely trolling like You were doing yesterday, and even admitted in one of Your posts that You were trying to "derail the thread".

Yes, I am going to Alert the mods..........

GO FIND ANOTHER THREAD. QUIT FLINGING POO

Originally posted by mattpryor
reply to post by dzonatas

 

My dad showed me how to use a gun when I was 9. It was great fun. What's your point?

You should ask that to who I quoted! (not to me)

Now do you honestly think there is a moral equivalence between that and these pictures?

You should ask the same question to yourself!

IDF loves to post photos like that, rather if the are real or not. We could endlessly post them here of both sides. Easy to do a search for israeli children, too. However, one has to question the morals of the IDF that exploit children!

[Let's get back on topic, like...]

How Israeli ministers teaches kids to pray for death upon Iranians

Ultra Orthodox boys attend a special prayer calling for the death of Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad , at a religious school in Jerusalem

And about 'settlers'... and how you said they are 'peaceful'...

Google Video Link

There is too much evidence like above to suggest that the Isreal's desired war with Iran is... hmmm...

(bites lips)

...has no merit.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by dzonatas]

Originally posted by miss_silver



Sir/Madam/Miss


I was unaware that highlighting something obviously wrong in your list and very well documented by several news agency around the world was resorting to an innuendo which it frankly is not!

You do not rush a very long post, you take your time, it takes a while and that is why it is very long. You either neglected to link that list or are now refusing to do so. I couldn't care less that your's truly is or isn't biased toward Israel. I could have picked the list apart quotes by quotes but I chose not to do so for it is not the topic of the thread at hand. The Topic is not what some Islamic countries did in the past to Israel, the topic is that Bully numero uno (Israel) is asking Bullies # 2, 3 and 4 which are 3 influential members of the UN (France, UK and USA) to start picking on and imposing international sanctions on a country that could, according to Israel, become a potential bully # 5. All of that for some momentarily cease and desist of Palestinian land grabs.

Again, I provide a factual list stating what happened. Yet you have not denied a single one of the events I have put up. Rather, you used one part to derail the whole thing and then again avoided providing a counter-arguement by making a claim (the whole bully #1 and #2) without providing any evidence or logical arguement as to why that is so.

You say that ATS's motto is to not be ignorant, well stop being ignorant, go back to my original post, and counter my claims one by one with your own evidence and sources (as I provided a source) if you really think I'm wrong. By ignoring events, that I put up, like say the Yom Kippur war or the 6-day war, you are inherently admitting I am right and thus I win the arguement.

As Sanchoearlyjones put it, when you have been proven completly wrong, don't go changing the subject.

reply to post by mattpryor


Hi matt, You say it's peace, and equality more, or less in Jerusalem???

original.antiwar.com... This article discusses how the Palestinians were promised equality, but then came apartheid, and living in tints outside of homes that once were theres.

uruknet.com... Here's an article of the Israeli military destroying all roads leading into a Palestinian Village. No supplies, no food, no water.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com... Here's more equality. In this article We can see not only English, but also Arabic have been banned from street signs, and govt. postings.

Now all the cities with either English, or Arabic names will have a Hebrew name. Hey, it's all peaceful, and full of equality as long as You do what Your told; right?

news.yahoo.com...
This last article was part of the original point in this thread. It's the original warning from the US after meeting with Israeli officials. The US tells Iran they only have 8 weeks, or else!!!! The article in the OP was about 3 weeks into the 8.

So You tell me how the article in the OP, and the last one above don't point toward war posturing?

Originally posted by buddhasystem


But above all, it doesn't have much to do with the thread topic

So, again: land grabs are illegal no matter what. Israel's stance on settlements, therefore, is quite deplorable. I say let's take our time with the sanctions and wait till Israel returns to its original borders.

Amen brother.

Thank you for trying to bring this thread back to it's original topic. No matter what both sides says, Israel supporters or Palestinians supporters, that one fact remains, Land grabbing is illegal. Original borders eh? Got to admit, that is some mighty wishful thinking


I just wonder how Israel will be even remotely able to keep that promise if Sanctions on Iran comes to pass for it seems that settlers even ignores their own government. We saw a good example of this type of behavior back in 2005 when Ariel Sharon ordered settlers to vacate Gaza.

Originally posted by cynic121


Again, I provide a factual list stating what happened. Yet you have not denied a single one of the events I have put up. Rather, you used one part to derail the whole thing and then again avoided providing a counter-arguement by making a claim (the whole bully #1 and #2) without providing any evidence or logical arguement as to why that is so.

You say that ATS's motto is to not be ignorant, well stop being ignorant, go back to my original post, and counter my claims one by one with your own evidence and sources (as I provided a source) if you really think I'm wrong. By ignoring events, that I put up, like say the Yom Kippur war or the 6-day war, you are inherently admitting I am right and thus I win the arguement.

As Sanchoearlyjones put it, when you have been proven completly wrong, don't go changing the subject.

cynic121


Yes, you are right and my bad for having pointed out something obviously false in this list of yours. I by my own admission, strayed from the thread at hand by asking you to back up your list with link/s.

The reason as to why I refused to pick apart the rest is because it is not the topic at hand and would have had no place on this current thread but if you are truly adamant that I should prove you wrong, I challenge you to a proper debate in the appropriate forum and will pick it apart, but just not in this thread. It is up to you to accept this debate.

I have thrown the gauntlet Sir!

As for Sanchoearlyjones, he was referring to Matt ad hominem attacks.


Now, cynic, will you participate in this thread at hand by voicing how you feel about Israel freezing settlements if tougher sanctions is imposed on Iran?

sure thing, see you on that forum. And I know Sancho was not using that saying in the context I used it, I like using people's words to my advantage. I read the debate forum rules, but how do you start? Can I just start a topic whenever I want or do I need permission? If you want you can start the topic since I'm new when it comes to the debate forum, albeit not in debating

As for settlements and Iran, I believe that Israel's settlements are illegal and eventually all of them must be taken down. Settlements make a two state solution impossible, and without the two state solution Israel will either cease to be jewish or cease to be democratic, either of which would be very bad.

I don't believe, however, that sanctions will cause Israel to get rid of its settlements. Sanctions are meant to put pressure on countries, and yet as we have seen often times they don't work. I'd like to preface this by saying that Israel is very different from North Korea or Myanmar, but those are the countries with the most sanctions so those are our only precedents. So far sanctions have failed to change North Korea's behavior because North Korea, through propoganda, has the support of its people against the outside world.

Now in the case of Israel, Israel has the support of its people, albeit not from propoganda, but the point is the same. The only time when sanctions work is when they cause people on the inside of the country to revolt through words or violence. A good example of this is Iran. Sanctions are working against Iran because people in Iran very much want to reconcile with the world community, as shown by their support for Khomeni and the protests after the stolen election. As we all know, the majority of the Israeli people may want a two state solution, but they will support their government in the face of sanctions, even to the point of going against the two-state solution.

As a result diplomacy is the only way to stop Israel from building more settlements. I think the point here is that people like to continue what they are doing. A temporary freeze on settlements, if good diplomacy is done in the meant time, can become permanent and giving a little on matters like Iran may be neccessary to get the ball rolling.

As for a military strike on Iran, I am against it. It will not push Iran's nuclear program back a lot, it will start a devastating war and it will hurt the reformists in Iran. However, I honestly can't blame the Israelis for contemplating it, even if it would be a stupid move, since Iran has declared its intent to destroy Israel and will obtain that ability if allowed to build nuclear weapons.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by cynic121]

[edit on 27-8-2009 by cynic121]

Originally posted by CuteAngel
#tiest thing I've heard. Most of the people were forced into conversion, they were torchured and threatened and the rest were brutally killed. Believe me I know what I'm talking about, having seen that a lot. How else do u think they got a majority. Please, for heaven's sake open your eyes to the world of non abrahamic religions. They cannot even tolerate people of abrahamic descent for on or more of their #ty reasons then how on earth you expect them to tolerate people of non abrahamic descent. How many Zorastrians are there in Iran that you know off...? You might want to do some reading on who the real parsis are...

Please friend,

If you're open-minded and of good faith, reconsider your knowledge of these subjects. There are many untrue statements in your posts.
For a start, Islam is an abrahamic religion. It is really basic knowledge. I am sure you are an intelligent person so imagine the reaction of readers when they come across such piece of deep ignorance. You claim you know what you are talking about ? If the Near East and Middle East issues raise an interest in you, study them again harder.

Islam is not more or less tolerant than any other religion. Jews and Muslims have lived together peacefully for centuries in the Middle East or North Africa. In Israel, there is an impressive number of mixed Jew/Muslim couples.
There is one major problem today between them but as always, it is not really about religion but power. The powerfuls use and have used religion to move the masses to their benefit for years.

reply to post by sanchoearlyjones


Why don't YOU stick on topic.

That is nothing more than a personal attack on someone who disagrees with you and has proof to that point.