Although I agree with some of what you say in your post, I also have to point out that when you distinguish between so-called "astral" events and "spiritual" ones, you are in a sense showing the "veneer of superiority" you mentioned as a distinguishing feature. Something of a Catch-22, no?

In my opinion, based on personal experience, psychic events, "divination", and such aren't particularly spiritual. In fact, they are considered useless in some spiritual disciplines. In Christianity, they are generally considered of the devil. The exception is that some Christian sects believe in "Word of Knowledge", that the Holy Spirit can sometimes show a person certain events to come. However, other sects consider this Word of Knowledge to be demonic influences trying to lead a person into error.

According to Hindu and Buddhist beliefs, the powers that sometimes arise as a result of meditation and spiritual practices are more of a hindrance than otherwise. This same belief is found in some mystical sects of other religions - in particular, in the Hasidic tradition of Judaism, in some mystical Christian groups, and within the Sufis is Islam. Unusual powers or gifts of any sort seem to be regarded with great suspicion, and in general are considered little more than an unimportant byproduct of spiritual practices.

There is a story of a student who was performing intense meditations. He ran to his teacher and told him, "Now, when I meditate, I see the angels of the Sun pushing his chariot across the sky!" The teacher told him, "Keep on meditating; it will go away".

It seems to me that the Astral Circus may have its place. Western culture is severely materialistic. Many people have no inkling of Spirit, no concept of reality beyond what can be sensed by material faculties - touch, sound, sight, smell, taste. Anything else, to them, is completely nonexistent, false, imaginary. For such people, it may be asking too much to expect them to leap from pure materialism to spiritual belief. Perhaps they need to see a few non-material "signs and wonder", just to get them to rethink their fundamental assumptions.

Of course there is the danger of getting hung up on the "astral circus". But there is always a danger of getting hung up anywhere along our journey, no matter where we are at the moment. My experience so far has been that if you think you've "arrived", you haven't. You're just momentarily stuck at some point, and will eventually continue your journey.

chiron613
psychic events, "divination", and such aren't particularly spiritual. In fact, they are considered useless in some spiritual disciplines.

Ok, but what do you mean by "spiritual?" From your phrasing, I gather that you use the words to mean "anything arbitrarily more advanced than I happen to be right now."

In my view, possessing a physical body at all is a psychich/spiritual event.

It seems to me that the Astral Circus may have its place.

Exactly. And so too does the physical world have its place. Perhaps we may be on the threshold of not needing it quite so much, but let's not dismiss it as worthless if we've already learned what it has to teach us.

Emotion and thought may eventually become "old material" as well.

Originally posted by Tayesin
Finally, someone else saying the same thing I've been saying for 20 years. Thank you Skyfloating.

As a young lad I was more interested in Astral projection as it seemed to be a spiritual path. Years later I came to understand from journeying in higher awareness layers that it is far too limited for real growth.

So I tell those who want to spend years going OBE that it is a waste of time and energy when you can more easily reach into your own higher awareness above that into what I call Soul Level Awareness or even higher into Over-soul awareness.. and it doesn't stop there. The big picture just keeps getting bigger the further "up" you go in awareness.

I used specific methods to meet the higher-self (representative of the Soul) and through regular journeys was able to regain memories from other incarnations that bring to an understanding of what I am, how I got to here and why I chose to be here this time. I also realised the astral layers are what I now call the supporting layers around the physical experience world.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by Tayesin]

you sir are a wise man . And you are totally right

although personally i find OBE and astral projection a good way to wake people up to the possibilities. Frankly it dosent even scratch the tip of the iceburg, but thats left for others to figure out for themselves...or its meaningless.

like an onion

[edit on 25-8-2009 by phi1618]

Originally posted by LordBucket

Tayesin
As a young lad I was more interested in Astral projection as it seemed to be a spiritual path. Years later I came to understand from journeying in higher awareness layers that it is far too limited for real growth.

For you, at your particular level of growth, perhaps. But I would propose to you that even sex and drugs and drinking ones self into oblivion is a "spiritual" path that is completely proper and appropriate for a person at that level of growth. You may think nothing of astral projection, but to some it may be a valuable next step. To some others it may be so far advanced that they cannot even attempt it.

When learning to add, you practice adding. When learning algebra, you practice algebra. Knowing calculus and then saying that algebra is "too limited" is a very self-centered view.

indeed like he said, he started there and moved on. To be aware of the end you must first be aware of the beginning

---

---

[edit on 26-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
I have silly issues with Semantics so I don't use the term Astral. Instead I use the term Limbal as it relates to the term Limbus, meaning edge or border. Limbus also refers to the concept of Limbo.

Limbo is a more fitting term for the sense of irreality associated with the realm.

From my research I have concluded their default form is an iridescent orb. These are the same orbs as foo fighters, ghost lights, faerie lights, the recent lanterns over parts of Europe, and other UFO sightings.

Interesting.

I have had some personal experience or encounters with these type of figures. It was these encounters, physical and "astral", that lead me to ATS. So I'm still trying to make sense of it all. I think somewhere the truth is out there. cue X-files theme.

What was your encounter with this black limbo-globs?

Originally posted by chiron613
It seems to me that the Astral Circus may have its place. Western culture is severely materialistic. Many people have no inkling of Spirit, no concept of reality beyond what can be sensed by material faculties - touch, sound, sight, smell, taste. Anything else, to them, is completely nonexistent, false, imaginary. For such people, it may be asking too much to expect them to leap from pure materialism to spiritual belief. Perhaps they need to see a few non-material "signs and wonder", just to get them to rethink their fundamental assumptions.

Of course there is the danger of getting hung up on the "astral circus". But there is always a danger of getting hung up anywhere along our journey, no matter where we are at the moment. My experience so far has been that if you think you've "arrived", you haven't. You're just momentarily stuck at some point, and will eventually continue your journey.

Absolutely.

But there has to be discussions for the intensely spiritually oriented too. Cant just make "Base 1" conversation too hardcore-materialists all the time.

[edit on 26-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

This is quite an important and timely thread.

There are a couple of questions we have to ask ourselves being on a spiritual path:

What does being spiritual actually mean? What is our actual objective or intent? Is it to discover that we are spiritual beings if we don't know that yet, or do we accept/understand that and actually explore what that means?

For me - if I accept that I am a spiritual being in a human body, then I want to know what that means and what it means for my human life. If I'm back home floating in the spiritual realms, pure Spirit, then everything is cool, everything goes, there is no polarity, I'm perfect, everything is perfect to put it simplistically. But since I CHOSE to be in a human body, how do I apply whatever spiritual knowledge I gain in my day-to-day life? How does it help me to become a happier, better, more peaceful, wiser person who can create a better life for myself and for others?

If I'm not sure yet that I'm in fact a spiritual being, then the funky bells and whistles may help to convince me, but at some point, being convinced, I need to move on. The bells and whistles, the astral traveling, the psychic abilities and gifts, other people's channeled guides are no longer helping me reaching my objective/intent. It actually starts getting in the way. A spiritual maturity sets in. If I allow it. Or, I can get stuck in the funky stuff and never discover the full scope or spectrum that awaits me.

Understanding what my true objectives are, I'm able to make choices iro how I want explore and investivgate, and I DO need serious discernment, more than anything else on this planet earth, because anybody can claim anything about God/Spirit and we have to take their word for it. It's normal to make mistakes, it's normal to digress - there is no judgement - but could it have been avoided? Have I been paying attention? Have I checked it against my Highest Truth?

Working, making a living etc - I only have a limited time available in this lifetime to fully focus on my spiritual pursuits - where do I direct my energy? And why?

Originally posted by Travel_light
Working, making a living etc - I only have a limited time available in this lifetime to fully focus on my spiritual pursuits - where do I direct my energy? And why?

Thats the question, isnt it.

Being alive on earth in and off itself is already a pretty advanced spiritual pursuit.

Very interesting, Skyfloating.
Just posting to make sure this thread appears in "my ATS" as often simply subscribing to a thread doesn't show up later. I'll be back... [/end Austrian accent]

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Sums up the entire trickster game dangers, and choices of the initiate seekers, and the fork in the path that usually opens it self up quickly to all who take any path to the truth.

Wise words and very true. I now look back at how I so wanted to open up my path of truth. I wished it so much with a true inner need to seek that my question for truth was answered. A spiritual path/journey did begin, I was answered by God, I asked and the creator saw I needed answers so the path was opened. Your right very quickly a fork did appear, it split into two very different directions..one up and one down. One lead to the astrals the other to the spiritual realms. I now see prior to the split that the glory of God came through to welcome me and show me the unconditional love of the Creator, then the choice was given, the path of truth was shown. I was given exactly what I had asked for, for the answer to what is "this" all about. The answer is we have a choice and only we can decide.

A Buddhist Lama said to me a couple of weeks ago during conversation:


It's simple really just be aware and decide always if what you are doing/thinking/feeling is going to send you up (spiritual) or down (Lower Astral/disembodied entities) when you die.

This is a very good quote.
Yes this is correct. Once we choose the path to the truth we need to be very aware of our thoughts/feelings. These are the language of the soul and they are there always guiding us to our choices. At every point in our day we choose if we act in a spiritual way (up) or an astral way (down). Our spirit guides us in our highest feeling we have about a choice, and this is where discernment comes in. How do we know what is our voice from within, the voice that comes from God/Creator/Source and not from an astral?

We know because it is the Highest Thought, the Clearest Thought and anything else is from another source.

I think the choice is simply one of acting through fear or through unconditional love. The Source/God would never send a choice that was to be made through fear, the Source loves us unconditionally and if any choices we make end up in feelings of negativity, needings, cravings, unhappiness, loss of self , anger, hatred, jealousy, egotistic feelings of grandness (list goes on) then we have been led to that choice by an astral and not from the spiritual realms.







[edit on 26-8-2009 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by LordBucket
For you, at your particular level of growth, perhaps. But I would propose to you that even sex and drugs and drinking ones self into oblivion is a "spiritual" path that is completely proper and appropriate for a person at that level of growth. You may think nothing of astral projection, but to some it may be a valuable next step. To some others it may be so far advanced that they cannot even attempt it.

When learning to add, you practice adding. When learning algebra, you practice algebra. Knowing calculus and then saying that algebra is "too limited" is a very self-centered view.

Hi Bucketman,
Yes. All paths are proper and appropriate. I see no reason why any portion of soul could not choose to experience any lifestyle. After all Everything is "spiritual".

Didn't say I think nothing of astral projection. We all do it naturally in our sleep as a safety valve anyway, so it has its place.

Awakening occurs through all layers of our awareness. In the astral and further... this is where words become useless. There is much on offer in the astral especially at Focus 27, going by Monroe's focus levels, where the Akasha is found.... at the topmost layer of the astral. It's a place so easy to get to everyone who gets shown how to do it are utterly surprised.

What we find there also is the thing that represents our soul, the thing most people call spirit guides or more specifically their Guide. Which is the higher-self, or in other words, the Teacher Within You. It is so easy to meet and work with this representative that again most people are really surprised when they do it.

This working with guidance, where "you go to them" and regain your own memories is what brings awakening through coming to know what paths led you to now,why you chose to be here now and what you really are.

Going about things this way removes having to spend years travelling around the astral in your search, or spending years learning how to quieten the mind in order to astral travel at will.

So basically, what I'm saying is there is a much more effective approach to take for real growth that provides direct experience without the need for operating under belief-system limitations.

We are like moths around a light, all seeing the same thing from a different perspective.

[edit on 26-8-2009 by Tayesin]

At my basic level of practise in daily life,

As apposed to mediatating/prayer etc,

Daily life going about our lives and such like, Where most of the Karma, Sin, Habits or consequences, or connections or whatever your prefered linguistics are I have found after a long time trying that over analysing can be a never ending circus as such to.

For me and I mention this often on ATS, some experiences I have gained from life, practise both in formal meditation, other practises and trying to "Wake Up" or be on the right path have led me to create my own little Mantra as such or Habit to Ground me in doing the right thing in mind speech and action etc as much as possible when hurried.

It's simple and sometimes we make it difficult for ourselves, just I try and catch my thoughts/actions with my grounding Mantra first watch my breath in feel it, relax and let it out then internally remind myself that there is a simple way to "be" that always refocues my mind on the right path. Green mentions some of this from Tolle as such, though I have practises this for years before he wrote that, bringing it from anciant eastern teachings I had read and condensing it/simpllfying it, I also have sat for hours gazing on benches, in states of Joy but certainly am not enlightened lol however it is simple:

Relax

Now

Love

Relax releases the emotions as such and opens up the mind from being too tight, having likes or dislikes to the situation and therefore acting out of habit.

Now is all there truly is, you cant change the past and unless you are enlightened no one really knows whats happening in the future. We miss life as we live in the past and project to the future. If you want to be happy and enlightened it can only be in the NOW, and if you think you will be happy when "something" happens or changes you will wait a long time, not realise it or find a new "something" when that desire is fulfilled.

This is so importnat it is the joy we see children with and experienced ourselves, just happy to be now, playing with mud or an empty box, no thought of past or future.

Love Unconditional is all that really matters (to include not being a 100% victim! love thyself but no more than others).

Breathe in, exhale let it go the emotion in your chest/tummy fully,

Relax

Now

Love

Cant go far wrong with this IMHO. Over time I have found that it starts to break through the normal patterns of anger, guilt, desire etc that make's us unhappy, and cause unhappines to others.

Of course in a sense it in itself is a habit, and an attachment and so if I am ever to make any real progress spiritually I will have to get to a point whereby spontaniously that is my nature, modus operandi as such without reminding myself or doing saying it internally.

But like a smoker who gives up and goes to the gym with the savings it certainly is a step onto the RIGHT path I feel so know it is OK for me to suggest it to anyone who would like to try it.

Love to all

Elf.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Travel_light
Working, making a living etc - I only have a limited time available in this lifetime to fully focus on my spiritual pursuits - where do I direct my energy? And why?

Thats the question, isnt it.

Suppose there is an afterlife, you can practice how to exist there by exploring your spirit in this life. This life is only temporary, I believe it is meant for us to prepare ourselves for the inevitable death and transition that follows. The more one tries to understand and imagine the afterlife, the more one becomes acquinted with it and thus easier to become completely free there. It's like you can see all the heavens and hells from this life without having to get stuck in there, once you die you can remember those places and choose to go to one of them. By having seen some of the hells you don't freak out and lose it during the transition.

The next world is probably totally unlike this world and the astral planes might serve as a playground in order to learn how to exist beyond. For example, I imagine it to be without the motion we have here, a planet spinning around it's own axis and a central sun along with other planets. This entire solar system is moving compared to the surrounding systems, in the hereafter there are no such things moving, no gravity, a completely different means of moving altogether. There's no light source like our sun, objects are light itself. Going there unprepared is like entering a nightmare I believe.

By trying to understand things as different worlds, other dimensions, realities and the laws there via astral projection we practice to be as free as possible in the hereafter. We can learn how to navigate, how to avoid dangers, all from a safe position, this physical body. It's almost like a base where spirit resides and receives information from a kind of probe (maybe the higher self?). In the afterlife there is no base, just spirit and mind and it becomes a lot more difficult to explore, lose a probe in this life and you can use the base to create a new one, in the afterlife it might be you get "stuck" while exploring, no base to start from again, no safety guard.

In this life, we are "given" all these things we take for granted, our eyes see for us, our brain translates for us, our skin feels, our noses and tongues smell and taste, our ears hear. But in the next world we might not have these senses or, we might have them but with restrictions just as our physical bodies have restrictions. If we manage to understand the workings we might overcome our restrictions and move on up, otherwise we can at best end up in some heaven that resembles Earth, not being able to move beyond it, not growing anymore.