Originally posted by Geladinhu

How so?

I think you will have to explain what you mean by "as a human" so that I can understand.

For example, as a human who wants to survive, it can be useful to discern between someone who would like to kill you vs. someone who would like to hug you.



[edit on 25-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by caitlinfae
That lower astrals can't fake the feeling of love is part of the problem, I feel. They will induce an approximation of it though, and if the person involved hasn't experienced love in it's finest frequency, in a true spiritual form, then they will have no point of reference. Again, it's more about our lack of discernment and desire to believe than their ability to fool us.

It is possible to approximate it. Its possible to artificially rev-up a feeling of warmth from the solar-plexus and project it onto unsuspecting cult-followers who feel elated by it.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

For example, as a human who wants to survive, it can be useful to discern between someone who would like to kill you vs. someone who would like to hug you.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

But when it comes to the spiritual or astral issue haven't we transcended the human experience as you put it? We are not humans anymore when dealing with such issues, we are spiritual beings, beings of light, frequencies or whatever you'd like to call it.

So my understanding is that the discernment you are talking about only works if you are attached to being human, but one that looks for experiences beyond the experience of being human is not attached anymore to being human so the discernment is not useful anymore.

If you want something more then to just be human (eat, sleep, reproduce) I feel that the kind of discernment you speak of has to go away.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by caitlinfae
That lower astrals can't fake the feeling of love is part of the problem, I feel. They will induce an approximation of it though, and if the person involved hasn't experienced love in it's finest frequency, in a true spiritual form, then they will have no point of reference. Again, it's more about our lack of discernment and desire to believe than their ability to fool us.

It is possible to approximate it. Its possible to artificially rev-up a feeling of warmth from the solar-plexus and project it onto unsuspecting cult-followers who feel elated by it.

So do you think it's possible that cult leaders and others do this deliberately in every case, or are they as delusional as their victims? What about "gurus", new age spiritual leaders and teachers? Do they believe really, or do they know consciously what they're up to, and it's all really about the cash? I don't really want to start mentioning names here, but I'm sure you can work out who I mean.

Originally posted by Geladinhu
But when it comes to the spiritual or astral issue haven't we transcended the human experience as you put it? We are not humans anymore when dealing with such issues, we are spiritual beings, beings of light, frequencies or whatever you'd like to call it.

I used to see it this way, and you might be right, but Im not sure anymore.

In other words, I think that beyond earthly life there are an infinite number of different worlds and the ones we "magnetically" drift towads are determined by our overall energy-field. And our overall energy-field can be changed to some extent by our choices.

Originally posted by caitlinfae
So do you think it's possible that cult leaders and others do this deliberately in every case, or are they as delusional as their victims? What about "gurus", new age spiritual leaders and teachers? Do they believe really, or do they know consciously what they're up to, and it's all really about the cash? I don't really want to start mentioning names here, but I'm sure you can work out who I mean.

Ive seen cult-gurus actively teach their "facilitators" how to do it. They`ll tell them that before selling someone the product or having them sign-up for the retreat or whatever, to "get aligned" with them or to "flow love" to them or to "establish rapport" with them. One of the ways to do this is to focus an intense amount of non-verbal appreciation onto the person who is supposed to sign-up for or buy something.

(This energy-field can be intensified to an extent that you can physically feel it as warmth on the skin, but its pretty rare to be able to build it up that much).

So, while the "showering of people with love" may be somewhat valid, using it in order to sell stuff is pretty....well...manipulative.

I dont know if everyone does it conscioulsy though. I doubt it.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by LordBucket

I can interpret this is a number of ways, depending heavily on what exactly you mean by "oneself." I won't discount the possibility that there may be value to the idea I think you're trying to convey...but allow me also to offer you the idea that there may be some danger in believing that power and awareness are things that can only exist outside of ones self. I assert that "I" am part of the universe. We can play and dance all day long about whether "I" is "ego" or "mind" or something else...but regardless, I assert that "I" am definitely a part of that which is. I assert that I do not require permission to act, and I assert that it is possible for me to act without calling upon external forces to do the acting for me.

Thanks for adding the additional sources of discernment.

Regarding your comment above: I´d agree. What I meant to say on psychic abilities is that there is also a factor involved that cannot be willed, forced, steered. Its like a mix of free will and the fields will.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Spiritualities Focus is on gradual and patient self-improvement and relief of the worlds suffering.

Astral-teachings are focussed on the immediate gratification of desperate neediness.

After the body dies, one finds oneself on either the astral-plane or a spiritual-realm. This is dependent on ones state of energy.

Sums up the entire trickster game dangers, and choices of the initiate seekers, and the fork in the path that usually opens it self up quickly to all who take any path to the truth.

All both experienced seekers and he new should take these points by Sky, and use it as a mirror or point of reflection on their own path.

A Buddhist Lama said to me a couple of weeks ago during conversation:

It's simple really just be aware and decide always if what you are doing/thinking/feeling is going to send you up (spiritual) or down (Lower Astral/disembodied entities) when you die.

Excellent thread and summation Sky of the big picture of what he was saying S+F

Kind Regards

Elf

[edit on 25-8-2009 by MischeviousElf]

Finally, someone else saying the same thing I've been saying for 20 years. Thank you Skyfloating.

As a young lad I was more interested in Astral projection as it seemed to be a spiritual path. Years later I came to understand from journeying in higher awareness layers that it is far too limited for real growth.

So I tell those who want to spend years going OBE that it is a waste of time and energy when you can more easily reach into your own higher awareness above that into what I call Soul Level Awareness or even higher into Over-soul awareness.. and it doesn't stop there. The big picture just keeps getting bigger the further "up" you go in awareness.

I used specific methods to meet the higher-self (representative of the Soul) and through regular journeys was able to regain memories from other incarnations that bring to an understanding of what I am, how I got to here and why I chose to be here this time. I also realised the astral layers are what I now call the supporting layers around the physical experience world.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by Tayesin]

What I meant to say on psychic abilities is that there is also a factor involved that cannot be willed, forced, steered. Its like a mix of free will and the fields will.

Let me offer two possible models. Unfortunately, I've yet to succesfully perfor ma teleportation, or telekinesis, or anything...so I can't say for certain if either of these are accurate at all, but they may be possible.

1)
The various "bodies" behave like an electrical circuit. For "psychic ability" to function, the circuit has to be "closed" and current must flow from end to end. You can intend something to happen al you want, and you can mentally think it and emotionally want it all you want, but if the "higher" states are not in agreement with the act, it's not going to happen because the current will not flow through those "open" parts of the circuit.

At first glance, I think this is basically the model you're proposing. But I see a number of problems with it. First, I don't necessarily believe that the lower levels are equally as important/poweful/significant as the higher levels. In an electrical circuit, it doesn't matter where along its length there's a break. If there's a break, current doesn't flow. With this model it could be suggested that a disgreement at the most base/miniml level would be able to block desire/intent from a higher level. Granted...it's possible the universe might really work that way. I just don't think so. Second, this perspective implies that where we are here and now happens to be "at an extreme end." Let me put it this way...we speak of "psychic abilities" as things that we can't do, but I would suggest that being able to see through eyeballs and thus be aware of the outside world is a psychic ability. Being able to have dreams is a psychic ability. Being able to access memory, being able to interface with a physical body...all of these are "psychic abilities" and they are things we very much seem to be able to do. A rock doesn't appear to have learned how to interface with a body and make it move. We have. We're manifesting a psychic ability that the rock is unable to. Do plants dream? I'm guessing they don't. But animals appear to. So animals are manifesting a psychic abiliy that plants haven't learned. Etc. But for this to be the case with the above model, plants and animals and people would need to be able to have, and have agrement with all the higher centers. Once again...it's possible that's what's going on, but it doesn't seem quite right to me.

2)
So, here's a second model: we have our variety of "bodies" or various "planes." Physical, astral, etc. I'm unable to comfortably observe these other bodies, so I won't give you a list, but like I listed in my previous post, lots of sources will present their idea of what that list is. Regardless of the details, I propose that each of these levels exist in more or less of a axis, top to bottom. They exist as a wave of ranging frequency. The "bottom level" is the lowest frequency, the "top level" is the highest frequency. If you were to look at this spectrum that composes us, you would see that, for example, the second level has twice as many wave crests as the first level in any given amount of length. Look at that in one dimension, and you'll see, for example, 1 wavecrest in a given amount of space, then 2 wavecrests in the adjacent same amount of space, then 4, etc. The concept of "amount of stuff in amount of space" is density. And this view of our "selves" as a frequency range is the source of the whole "density" concept constantly refferred to throughout spiritual and channeled literature.

Now...let's say that I want to move an object. My body has a certain amount of mass to it, and if I hurl my body at the object, there is a limit to the amount of force than I can apply. If there is sufficient friction, I may be unable to move the object at all. Even with no friction, if the object is considerably more massive than the force I am able to apply, I will only be ablet to generate minimal acceleration. If I continue to apply myself, eventually that accleration will result in greater speed. This is focus.

Friction permitting, even a very small force would eventually be able to move a massive object across a vast distance. However, there is a certain minimal amount of force needed to overcome any positive amount of friction.

This is our metaphor. Now let's discuss psychic ability.

Even without help or agreement from higher levels of consciousness, the continued focus from a lower level of consiousness is able to create change. It simply has less force, so it must simply "concentrate" longer, just like an small acceleration must be applied longer to generate the same net velocity that a greater force could generate in less time. Mere willpower. Mere intent. Mere third density thought alone, given sufficient time, could create an "acceleration", could manifest a "psychic event" such as teleportation or telekinesis. But, the more levels of self that are in agreement, the more that are working together, the more net force a being is able to apply. Maybe emotional desire alone is enough to make something happen, eventually. And maybe willful intent alone is enough to make something happen, eventually. But if they work together, it will take less time to manifest because more force is being applied. The more, and the higher centers that are being used to manifest a psychic event, the less time/effort/exertion it will require.

This model has a number of interesting implications.

The concerted effort of lower centers over time would be able to overcome the effort of a higher center over a short time.

Lower centers would be capable of peforming "low friction/low mass" actions. For example, if plants do not dream but animals do, we can easily describe that by saying that the threshold of friction for the act of dreaming is greater than the amount of force that the density of the plant is able to exert. No amount of pushing with your hands will be sufficient to slide a ten thousand ton block of concrete across sandpaper, at earth's gravity. A plant cannot exert enough force to dream because of friction. In order to dream it would need to develop higher (more dense) centers that would allow it to apply more force. Or, I suppose...exist in a sufficiently low friction environment and apply itself over time.

This would explain why affirmations and similar activities can work...sometimes. It's simply a matter of applying enough force to overcome friction, and applying it long enough to generate the result you want. But for a being with access to sufficiently higher density centers, even extremely "high mass/high friction" events like conjuring entire universes into existence become possible.



[edit on 25-8-2009 by LordBucket]

Tayesin
As a young lad I was more interested in Astral projection as it seemed to be a spiritual path. Years later I came to understand from journeying in higher awareness layers that it is far too limited for real growth.

For you, at your particular level of growth, perhaps. But I would propose to you that even sex and drugs and drinking ones self into oblivion is a "spiritual" path that is completely proper and appropriate for a person at that level of growth. You may think nothing of astral projection, but to some it may be a valuable next step. To some others it may be so far advanced that they cannot even attempt it.

When learning to add, you practice adding. When learning algebra, you practice algebra. Knowing calculus and then saying that algebra is "too limited" is a very self-centered view.