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Checklists for vets to decide whether life is worth living

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posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 11:02 AM
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Checklists for vets to decide whether life is worth living is in a booklet distributed by the VA.

It contains checklists for veterans to evaluate whether their life is worth living. Opponents say it sends a message that veterans disabled in combat should end their lives so they aren't a burden to their families.

The VA hospital in Phoenix acknowledged they distribute the booklet to veterans, but referred any further comment to the VA in Washington.

So far, no response to our request for an interview.

www.kfyi.com...

www.kfyi.com...




posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 11:45 AM
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reply to post by SailorinAZ
 


This is more of the extreme Right-Wing nonsense.

That booklet has been in use since BEFORE the Bush administration, was updated and re-issued DURING the Bush administration, and is currently getting a renewed "focus" because the VA, currently under the jurisdiction of the Obama administration, following normal protocols, again re-issued the booklet.

It is a red herring, designed to scare. It is blatant partisan fear-mongering tactics, and is pathetic.

I have a thread on it, started yesterday. Search ATS thread titles for "Death Book".
____________________________

Here is the thread



[edit on 25 August 2009 by weedwhacker]



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by weedwhacker
This is more of the extreme Right-Wing nonsense. It is a red herring, designed to scare. It is blatant partisan fear-mongering tactics, and is pathetic.


Where EXACTLY do you see the OP blaming Obama for this? No where.
Where EXACTLY do you see any falsehoods in the opening post? No where.
Where EXACTLY do you see anything partisan at all in the opening post? No where.

The OP gave a link to the information that clearly shows that it has 1997 on the document. The OP NEVER said 'ohh ... this is Obama's doing'. It was just the information about the book to discuss. Nothing else. At this point, the only one bringing politics into the discussion is you and your loaded language.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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Whoa, whoa, whoa... have any of you read this booklet? I just looked through the intro and table of contents. It's about letting people know what you want done should you be in a coma, not about committing suicide if your kids have to support you. You know, like the Terri Schiavo debate. True, this pamphlet seems a bit crass. It could've been written better, but it is NOT telling anyone that their life is not worth living.

Please do your research first. This is ridiculous, like that Death Panel nonsense. Read the bill.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 12:27 PM
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reply to post by FlyersFan
 


FF, perhaps I was a bit brash, but with THIS title:


Checklists for vets to decide whether life is worth living


I think any normal person reading that will notice certain loaded words.

Not to mention the OP selected, as source, a conservative radio talk show, and in all honesty it cannot be denied that the Limbaugh's, Wallace's, etc, of the right side of the media have already picked up on this booklet, as a new cause celebre' after the "Death Panel" fiasco. This is just more of the same.

Did the OP specifically point to Obama by name? No. Of course not. Is there an implication? Yes, because it's in context.

What I saw was the OP bring it up, and present it as if it were somehow true, and awful, when in fact the booklet is being intentionally misrepresented, and a further look into it will show that.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by weedwhacker

I'll admit the title was a bit brash and misleading. But I am still loking for any connection with Bush, Obama, Limbaugh, or anyone else connected politically in the OP, to be honest. As has been stated, this is no more than an end-of-life planning booklet.

Methinks you were a bit brash and quick to jump to conclusions yourself, WW.

TheRednneck



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Where EXACTLY do you see the OP blaming Obama for this? No where.


I fail to see where WeedWhacker ever accused the OP of blaming Obama. Just the right for making a mountain out of a mud puddle.


Where EXACTLY do you see any falsehoods in the opening post? No where.


In the title of the thread. The booklet in question does not contain a "checklist for vets to decide whether life is worth living". It is a booklet on making a living will in case of a catastrophic illness or accident. It is apparent that the OP did read all the hype, but did not read the actual booklet in question.


Where EXACTLY do you see anything partisan at all in the opening post? No where.


By not checking the facts, and just putting forth the 'party line', the OP has engaged in partisan fearmongering, thus weedwhacker's assessment of partisanship is quite correct.

Until those of you who want to point to this booklet as proof that the Boogeyman exists actually read it, debating the issue is simply pointless.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by kongfuzi
 


I have. I created a thread on this Sunday.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I'll just say I find it highly offensive. You can read why on my thread.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by soldiermom
 


While you might find it offensive, these are questions that one must ask of oneself when constructing a living will. I would also point out that these are questions that one must ask before such a catastrophic accident, injury or illness. What you find offensive, others will find quite useful! I wish I had read this booklet before I had written my living will. It would have made the process much easier.

I find it much more offensive to leave these decisions to my loved ones. I have also seen the complete disregard to a loved ones wishes due to the lack of a living will. I left none of these decisions on the shoulders of my loved ones. I made them for myself, and am quite comfortable in the fact that my wishes will be followed if such a scenario should occur.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 


What I find offensive is the fact that not all disabled vets are on their deathbeds. You're going to tell me that it's okay to question a vet that has lost a limb whether he/she feels their life is worth living?

Here's a question I asked in my thread. What if amputees or vets suffering from mental illness are contemplating suicide? That question might be the deciding factor as to whether or not they do commit suicide.

As I stated in my thread, I'm all for living wills. I'm not for making a vet question whether his/her life is worth living if they still enjoy a decent quality of life.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 


Have you read page 21 of the booklet? It most certainly does have a checklist asking questions where one of the answers to check is whether or not you feel your life is worth living.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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I'm a vet. Not disabled, healthy, and sometime I even question if my life is worth living. I'm often depressed, guilt ridden, and unhappy. My therapy and antidepressants only help a small amount.

I combat my depression with humor, alcohol and a Fender guitar.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by whaaa]



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by soldiermom
What I find offensive is the fact that not all disabled vets are on their deathbeds. You're going to tell me that it's okay to question a vet that has lost a limb whether he/she feels their life is worth living?


Absolutely, this is a valid question! Not in that it has anything to do with a living will, but as to whether they require psychological therapy.


Here's a question I asked in my thread. What if amputees or vets suffering from mental illness are contemplating suicide? That question might be the deciding factor as to whether or not they do commit suicide.


Trust me, they will ask themselves this question whether they read the booklet or not. What constitutes a 'quality life' differs from person to person.


As I stated in my thread, I'm all for living wills. I'm not for making a vet question whether his/her life is worth living if they still enjoy a decent quality of life.


As I stated above, the individual alone is the only one who can answer what constitutes a 'quality life'.


Have you read page 21 of the booklet? It most certainly does have a checklist asking questions where one of the answers to check is whether or not you feel your life is worth living.


Yes, I have. The title of this section is what the right has grabbed ahold of and ran with. This booklet was written 12 years ago, during peacetime. It was designed to inspire thought concerning the subject, and was not intended for actual war vets. While I will agree that some of the questions are really not applicable for the construction of a living will (and hopefully will not be included in the revision), most are. Trust me when I say that I most certainly do not wish to continue living if confined to a wheelchair, unable to speak and unable to control my bodily functions. CHECK PLEASE!!!



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by soldiermom
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 


What I find offensive is the fact that not all disabled vets are on their deathbeds. You're going to tell me that it's okay to question a vet that has lost a limb whether he/she feels their life is worth living?

Here's a question I asked in my thread. What if amputees or vets suffering from mental illness are contemplating suicide? That question might be the deciding factor as to whether or not they do commit suicide.

As I stated in my thread, I'm all for living wills. I'm not for making a vet question whether his/her life is worth living if they still enjoy a decent quality of life.


Everyone, should be asked these questions and then create a living will/advanced care directive. Not just vets. Because of my family experiences I have an advanced care directive and so does just about everyone else in my family.

Personally? I think it should be required for every one turning 18 to sit down with their physician etc, go over all the options, and create their advanced care directive.

Leaving these decisions to your family? Leaves nightmares for life. I know this from personal experience.

If used well, these questions just might be a back door to finding those who MIGHT be suicidal, and get them the care they really need instead of being left in the dark as to how they really feel about life.

Harm None
Peace



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 02:33 PM
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reply to post by soldiermom

Thank you; I just checked out page 21.

It starts off with the following question: "This exercise will help you think about and express what really matters to you. For each row, check one answer to express how you would feel if this factor by itself described you." It then lists a myriad of hypothetical situations, such as being wheelchair-bound, being a financial burden, and so on.

I don't think it intends for one to answer about their present condition, but rather about possible future conditions. It's a "what-if" thing, not a questionnaire on whether you should commit suicide as the title of this thread would indicate. In the context of the book, which is all about possible future medical events, it would appear to be a needed and potentially helpful resource.

There are no vets who are worthless; let me say that with absolute certainty. I would be the last person to make such a claim. Their contribution to our way of life is immeasurable and they deserve the best this country has to offer (whether they get it is a topic for another thread). But that also means we must respect their wishes and face the fact that they do age just like all the rest of us. They have pride in themselves just like all the rest of us. Their final wishes need to be considered just like all the rest of us.

I recently lost two uncles, both WWII veterans. Never in a million years would I or anyone else in my family even consider the notion that they were useless! Yet, they both had wishes made well-known beforehand, and neither wanted to be left on mechanical apparatus should they be declared brain-dead. Thankfully in their case, neither one's family was put into that situation.

Vets are people too. They do not need to be coddled, just as they do not need to be chided. They need to be respected. I do not see how this pamphlet denies them any of that respect.

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 



Yes, I have. The title of this section is what the right has grabbed ahold of and ran with.


I wasn't aware this was a left/right issue. This is not political for me.

I guess it depends on your perception of things as to whether or not you're offended by this. Personally speaking, I am.

As the mother of a vet, I would see red if someone asked him whether or not he felt his life was worth living. Regardless of whether or not he had a disability. No matter how you try to rationalize this, I fail to see the necessity of asking that specific question.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 03:11 PM
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reply to post by soldiermom
 


As TheRedneck stated, this was a checklist to inspire thought about possible future medical conditions. I am a vet, and found nothing wrong or infuriating by this publication. You are judging the entire publication by this one page, and more specifically, just a few of the questions. As I stated before, if I were wheelchair bound, unable to speak or control my bowels or bladder, then life, for me, would not be worth living. I'd have me a party with a big bottle of pain meds and a bottle of Dom Perignon! There are others who would not see this possible scenario in the same light.

While you do not see this as a partisan issue, the right has. They are trying to link this to Healthcare Reform, making it a red herring.



[edit on 25-8-2009 by JaxonRoberts]



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by soldiermom
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
 



Yes, I have. The title of this section is what the right has grabbed ahold of and ran with.


I wasn't aware this was a left/right issue. This is not political for me.

I guess it depends on your perception of things as to whether or not you're offended by this. Personally speaking, I am.

As the mother of a vet, I would see red if someone asked him whether or not he felt his life was worth living. Regardless of whether or not he had a disability. No matter how you try to rationalize this, I fail to see the necessity of asking that specific question.



Please tell me what is offensive about it? I would like to know which part of it offends you as I do not want to make an assumption.

I am truly interested in your answer. Why is it offensive for people, especially those who have very dangerous jobs, to look at a possible future, and make decisions about what they want done while in a stable frame of mind?

Do you really want to make that decision for your child yourself? Or have your childs children have to make those decisions for their parent?

Like I have said before in other threads, from personal experience, having to make those decisions for someone you love, leaves you with lifelong scars that will never ever go away. No matter what choice you make, you will always wonder if you made the right choice.

My loved ones will never have to make those decisions. I have already made them while I am healthy. My family knows my wishes, and I have a legal document, called an advanced care planning directive/living will, which assures that my wishes will be recognized and respected.

Have YOU made one? Or will you leave that up to those who love you to decide for you if something happens that puts you in a situation where you cannot decide for yourself? Trust me, if something were to happen to you, if you do not have an advanced care planning directive, your family will have to make that choice for you.

They will then have to decide to either remove you from life support, or leave you for an unknown number of years on life support. Either way, either way is the most horrendous, heartbreaking and soul destroying situation that can ever happen. I have dealt with BOTH of those situations as well as one where my mother in law had an advanced care planning directive. I can guarantee you, the situation with my mother in law, was the best of all three. In the end, I still lost someone I loved very much, but without the horror of the first two situations.

Like it or not, everyone dies. Some die quietly in the care of those who love them, some die horrendously. The question is, do you want to leave it up to your family to live with the nasty ghosts they will have to live with when they have to make a choice? When either choice they make will leave them with life long scars?

THIS, is where I see nothing but the fear of death taking over. We do not want to look at the truth that ourselves, and those we love WILL die. Some of us, no many of us will die horrendously, leaving unfathomable pain behind to those we love. We bury our heads in the sand and yell LA LA LA LA. UNTIL, we are standing by the hospital bed of a loved one hearing a dr ask us what we want to do. When what we really want is for our loved one to open his/her eyes, smile at us and tell us everything will be ok.

My brother? We chose to keep on life support. We took care of him for 13+ years at home. My dad? We chose to remove from life support. In horror, we imagined mom sitting in a room with my brother on one side of her, and our dad on the other side of her. Like I have said before, I still to this day have nightmares over both situations. Did we make the right choice for either of them? In this life, I will never know. They were selfish, and uneducated about the realities of death, and left those decisions to those of us who loved them most. My loved ones will never have to make those choices, they will never have to spend their lives asking if they made the right decision.

This is why I feel that everyone who turns 18 should have counseling sessions and sessions with their physicians in regards to creating an advanced care planning directive/living will.

Harm None
Peace




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