UK file-sharers to be 'cut off'

Originally posted by boaby_phet
traffic restrictions are not started because companies want to screw people over, companies provide what they can and they have to work with what they have to give everyone as good a service as possible,

Traffic restictions exist for one reason and one reason only. Most networks simply cannot cope with with as little as 5% of its userbase using the broadband they pay for. That is absolute fact. As I said, ISPs over sell capacity, and in my book, when you sell something you cannot actually provide, you are screwing the person your selling that thing to. Traffic restrictions allow the ISP oversell even more, it enables them to squeeze even more punters on what are already oversubscribed networks.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by quackers]

reply to post by quackers


well, i dont mean to sound condecending but ...

actualy i wont, ill be sarcastic.

i guess you would know, what with working for an isp ect ?...

i guess working for 2 of the uk's biggest isp's over the last 3 years means absolutely nothing, and i have no clue what im talking about. . . obviously.

i hate to drop this but DENY IGNORANCE , wether taking down governments or trying to place blame on crap services..

fact again, more fact .....actualy , meh, theirs no point posting facts as they just get argued by people who have no other viewpoint on internet technology other than that of the uneducated angry END USER.

Piracy / free downloads are the future of entertainment.

The successful record companies will be the ones that turn it to their advantage.

The rest will fall by the wayside.

All this is just p*ssing in the wind.

it will never happen;
if ISP's restrict internet access;
any entrepreneur can take all their customers just by starting their own ISP service by getting a telnet account and a whole bunch of routers and stream thru telephone lines;
thereby making a ton of cash and making the ISP's that restrict access go out of business;

Originally posted by mattpryor
Piracy / free downloads are the future of entertainment.

The successful record companies will be the ones that turn it to their advantage.

The rest will fall by the wayside.

All this is just p*ssing in the wind.

yeah i agree;
im starting to hear alot of free songs where the artist would give a short intro and say something like
"this is brittany spears and youre listening to ats, sponsored by Adidas"

they will also have to start doing more tours and live shows;
and start selling autographed pictures with their cd's or something

[edit on 25-8-2009 by DjSharperimage]

Originally posted by boaby_phet
reply to post by quackers

 

well, i dont mean to sound condecending but ...

actualy i wont, ill be sarcastic.

i guess you would know, what with working for an isp ect ?...

i guess working for 2 of the uk's biggest isp's over the last 3 years means absolutely nothing, and i have no clue what im talking about. . . obviously.

i hate to drop this but DENY IGNORANCE , wether taking down governments or trying to place blame on crap services..

fact again, more fact .....actualy , meh, theirs no point posting facts as they just get argued by people who have no other viewpoint on internet technology other than that of the uneducated angry END USER.

Obviously you don't have a clue considering virtually all ISPs blame the need for traffic management systems on the 95th percentile. That bothersome 5% of people who just cant get enough downloading done in a day. Thats not my conclusion, it is the conclusion of ISPs including BT, Plusnet, VirginMedia, and all the way across the sea to Cox and Comcast, they all blame a minority of users who choose to use their bandwidth. Bandwidth that they were sold but were not expected to use. Traffic management is mearly a way for ISPs to maximize profit while keeping investment in infrastructure to a minimum. I may not have worked for an ISP that does not mean I have no idea how they operate. ISPs themselves admit their networks are oversubscribed, but that doesn't stop them from shoving more people on.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by quackers]

obviously i dont know anything/...

why on earth do i work for for who i do, i think i better put in my notice as someone on a forum thinks they know how everything works..

how silly of me, to think my job for an isp woudl give me any insite to thsi topic..

for shame..

i think you are actualy quackers.

isp's in uk , and everywhere else that networks are used in any way or form do suffer from overloading, but that is not overselling, its from under estimating the bandwith needs of that area. its practicly impossible to over provide an exchange in the physical sence, as their only so much room , and once all the ports ect are fill their litrely is no more space in that exchange untill they install more racks ... this is different from over selling, its caused by under estimating needs. ... this is where im stopping, as this topic can get so bloody complex that i would be here explaining for you all evening explaining how an eu's connection to the internet works, but i have a life and your going to disagree anyway as "you know better" ..

rack space in exchanges is a small part., but also as impostant is the type of adsl used (for instance, g.dmt/adsl/adsl2), the quality of lines installed connecting the eu to their pcp/dp/exchange (see aluminium cables).

and most importantly, go reaserch physics, as thats what most of the speed issues in uk broadband come down to .. mainly, the term attenuation.!

i suggest you like, speak to people actualy working in broadband and not the ofcom website which is nothign but an independant body who deals with complaints, you will never hear anything good from them as its not what their paid to do!"

(id also like to say, im immensly dumbing this down here, i am not going into tech details ect, as i could litrely be here all night typing and i have a life)


[edit on 25-8-2009 by boaby_phet]

I am quackers.

And if your job is anything other than telesales/cs then perhaps a change in profession would be prudent.

Originally posted by quackers
I am quackers.

And if your job is anything other than telesales/cs then perhaps a change in profession would be prudent.

im not in sales or cs, and this forum is no representation of my job, its a forum, i can speak to trolls anyway i freeking want , so duck you.

Haha, I was not making a reference to the way you speak (grammar nazis are scum btw), rather your lack of knowledge surrounding the reasoning for traffic management by ISPs.

We don't like traffic jams

At Virgin Media, we want all our customers to get the best service possible from their broadband. That means speedy downloads for all users - not just a few.

When someone is downloading and/or uploading a particularly large amount of information over a long period of time, it can slow down the broadband speed for other users who might just be checking their email or browsing online. So to make sure our service is fair for everybody, we sometimes moderate the speeds for the top 5% of customers who are downloading and/or uploading an unusually large amount.

Source


"Underestimating needs" is simply spin for "oversold capacity". If 5% of the network has a detrimental effect on the other 95% of the network, then the network is inherently broken as it cannot even support 5% of users using the bandwidth they have paid for. If your network cannot support 50,000 people @10mbit, dont sell 10mbit to 50,000 people, it really is as simple as that. Then there would be no need for traqffic management.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by quackers]

[edit on 25-8-2009 by quackers]

reply to post by quackers


I agree Quackers, the ISP douche staff talk for hours about how it is the outdated systems and networks we have here in the UK that ruin the speed for everyone, the harsh reality is that they should do line speed tests after installs and whatever the average speed you get is what you should pay for. As well as that BT for example is famous for strangling the bandwidth from a Friday Afternoon till late on a Saturday night so don't give me that we are all idiots and don't have the technical knowledge of someone calling themselves Boaby Fett These companies want to give as little as possible and charge as much as they can, overselling the bandwidth allocation and the maximum speed a user will get simple as that, the whole point of the thread is that we already put up with this and now there is talk of the government forcing the ISP hand, at that point I think a lot of people will tell the big ISP where to shove their flawed product.

reply to post by quackers


your talking about virgin, they do not run over the pstn, they run off their own Fiber-to-the-node / neighborhood style network, where the fiber connections go to a certain point, then as and when required virgin (telewest) can hook a customer to their network, with virgin their IS overselling and providing, as if theirs cable in teh area, they will hook people up to it, everything that works via the pstn is different, as you cant just lay a cable to the exchange for every new customer (of course, unless its a new house / neighbourhood) who does not have a line/connection.

i believe we have a case of crossed wires hehehehe , i strictly refer to broadband transmitted over pstn lines, not virgins psudo-optic connections. (its still copper!!!)

On the level : as much as you dont like to hear it, its the truth im afraid, uk's broadband is being limited by the network its broadcast over. Their are shortcomings on all sidea, but about 90% of it is down to the pstn .. once they (bt openreach) lay their fiber system it will all get a but faster ...

(isp's in uk other than virgin are now testing fiber connections using bt's new fiber connections)

btw, its phet, not fett loolz


[edit on 25-8-2009 by boaby_phet]

I would have thought that there would be even less need for traffic management on adsl as it doesn't suffer from the same congestion issues cable braodband does. In either case, there should be by now sufficient redundancy on any network to accomodate that 5% of heavy users, they do pay for it after all, and if you meet their bandwith needs then there would be no issue with the other 95% of "normal" users. But, ISPs dont want to make that sort of investment, so instead to introduce management to slow down that 5%, which doesn't address the problem, it only avoids it temporarily.

reply to post by quackers


the company i work for doesnt slow anything down.

we just have bandwith limits, like every other isp .. but they do not like stop once reached, if you breach it you get charged. (dont ask how much, im a techie dude ).

its not about laying prices to stop people over using and covering up for shortcomings in the networks, its simply to make money! pure and simple.

Costs needs to be covered ... The only way isp's have manage to grow and get to a position where their serving more people than bt(the company that actualy own the network) isp's have had to basicly give their llu services away for free! now, for a company to be able to offer llu services, they need to be able to buy all the hardware needed and pay for the space in the exchange, this money has not came from nowhere and has to be made back in some way or form. this is probbaly why we see more throttling these days unfortunatly ... as limits and throttles = fee's when connection of over used / abused, they also add options to customers like moving from 8mb to 20mb ect ect ..

remember, internet is also a business, nothing is free, not even for the isp's!

we can only prey it dont get like some of the usa isp's !

Sorry Phett I spoke to some guy at BT and said I was cancelling my contract as soon as it strikes 4:50pm on a Friday night the average download speed on my torrents goes from 200 to 300 KPS to 4-9 KPS this is not just the torrent as it happens all of the time. I said to the guy that BT are bandwidth stranglers and he just laughed and said he couldn’t argue with that . You say that we could get as bad as America but it is not an option, look at the landmass of the UK compared to the US and look and how much more we pay, it is a joke Norway all runs on Fibre optic and gets 100 KPS on a slow day.

I just feel they are all at it and if they are going to strangle the bandwidth I would rather have a downloader’s package that was more per month but I got what I paid for

Rant over ISP rubbish - Government of UK - Even worse, they should focus on the massive immigration problem, the banks being on their knees and unemployment equalling Germany in 1931. If I were a minister Internet piracy would be the last thing on my mind.

reply to post by On the level


ah, bt ....problem solved....

i will not say nothing else ..lol, i used to be a bt customer as well.

i was also a virgin cable eu at one point ... their throttling policys are just to complicated!

reply to post by boaby_phet


There isnt a decent choice among the mate, and where I live you couldent even get cable so fibre optic will probably come on the back of Nibiru

What really bugs me about this is that when it comes to online fraud, scams, etc, the government and police won't lift a sodding finger.

Our company was recently used as a cover for a "lottery win pay us £500 admin fees" scam. Called the police, they didn't even try to investigate it. Just not interested.

But when it comes to protecting the precious revenues of bloated, pointless record companies they move heaven and earth and introduce laws to spy on us.

Absolutely disgusting.

It's almost certain that the halfwits in power will force through some quick legislation without thinking about it.

How will your ISP will determine beyond doubt that your are down/uploading copyright material? I guess it will be the easiest and lowest cost way - if you are using P2P then you must be guilty.

There are already solutions to this problem such as using a proxy in Canada and it shouldnt take long for a better solution to appear.

reply to post by mattpryor


1000% agreed! You get in less trouble for actualy stealing a bag full of cd's/dvd's from hmv as you would if you are caught downloading the same bag of cd's/dvd's..... In the real world you would probably just get a caution and a small fine (unless your a repat criminal). In the Virtual world, the same theft os DATA can get you a fine of a few million dollars.

It is a complete hypocracy , but, again, theirs a reason for that, its not law enforcement agencys or police who are policing the internet, ITS LAWYERS ...plain and simple!

The actual internet fraud is so rife and unstoppable, as thats what its intended to be, for every internet cop working a case theirs probably 1000's of thousands of other crimes going un noticed, the police dont make millions from chasing criminals, they just get to know they stopped some crime and maybe someone getting ripped off.

With copyright infringement, its all lawyers and their departments/people who think their police, when in fact all they are doing is going onto mini nova, downloading torrents, then getting people to trace all the ip's of the people seeding, then reporting it to their isp ... i do not know why they go after certain people and not others, but i do know they just rip ip's from torrents, as i got a threatening letter from my isp telling me to stop, but that they were not passing information on to copyright holders,

its because if this situation we have the situation where lobbiests have pressured the government into playing ball, but the isp's know its a farce and dont want to play ball (for the most) as its simply not their job, isp's do not have the recorses or man power to monitor every single packet to see whats copyright infringed and whats not ... its completly impossible without every isp hiring insane amounts or people and recorces for something thats got nothing to do with them in the first place.

[edit on 26-8-2009 by boaby_phet]