Is Forgiveness Important?

Hi all, with all the news of the Lockerbie Bombers release I would like to discuss a hot topic, Forgiveness.

Can we really forgive people who have comitted Murder, or Multiple murders?

Lets start by finding out the meaning of the word -

From the Oxford English Dictionary -

'to grant free pardon and to give up all claim on account of an offence or debt'

en.wikipedia.org...

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Most of us when we think of Forgiveness think of religions, so I would like to quote some brief statements from the major religions of the world -

BUDDHISM

You will not be punished for your anger, you will be punished by your anger.” — The Buddha

“Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else but you are the one who gets burned” — The Buddha

SIKHISM

To practice forgiveness is fasting, good conduct and contentment” — Guru Arjan Dev

Where there is forgiveness, there God resides — Kabir, page 137

“Dispelled is anger as forgiveness is grasped” –Guru Amar Das, page 233

JUDAISM

When asked by an offender for forgiveness, one should forgive with a sincere mind and a willing spirit.” — Mishneh Torah, Teshuvah 2:10

“Who takes vengeance or bears a grudge acts like one who, having cut one hand while handling a knife, avenges himself by stabbing the other hand.” — Jerusalem Talmud, Nedarim 9.4

CHRISTIANITY

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us” ( Matthew 6:9-13)

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34).

ISLAM

“They avoid gross sins and vice, and when angered they forgive.” (Quran 42:37).

“Although the just penalty for an injustice is an equivalent retribution, those who pardon and maintain righteousness are rewarded by God. He does not love the unjust” (Qur’an 42:40).

forgiveness in religion

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Many famous names in History have also commented on Forgiveness -

JOHN F KENNEDY -

Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names

MARTIN LUTHER KING JNR -

We must develop and maintain the capacity to forgive. He who is devoid of the power to forgive is devoid of the power to love. There is some good in the worst of us and some evil in the best of us. When we discover this, we are less prone to hate our enemies

GANDHI -

The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong

Forgiveness is choosing to love. It is the first skill of self-giving love

VOLTAIRE -

No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible

Forgiveness Quotes

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Some famous examples of Forgiveness in History can be found here -

Great Acts of Forgiveness

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I guess many of us will never find out how hard it would be to forgive for a horrific crime. I have got through many tough times with forgiveness being the major factor. Nothing as bad as murder, but still trying times and it took many years to finally be forgiven.

I would like to finish this post with a short video and thanks for reading and watching! Feel free to comment -

Thanks, G

My life was totally wrecked and the criminals have never stopped there crimes against me. So why should people like me ever forgive anyone that perpetrated the crimes.

I understand why people say you should forgive, but if crimes never stop why should you.

The victims are the ones who pay for the criminals, and the criminals get away scot free as they are scum and society only wants scum.

You must forgive the situation in order to transcend it.

Forgive, but never forget.

Something that has astounded me.

Although forgetting seems to go hand in hand with forgiveness.

Forgiveness, shouldn't be granted to anyone who doesn't deserve it.

If you kill a loved one, don't expect forgiveness that, is the last thing you will receive.

Since everyone on this board, site, with all their might, hates George W. Bush.

Tell me do you forgive him, then tell me what this means to you.

Better yet, what is forgiveness, is it, forgetting it happened, is it a renewal.

What is forgiveness?

Are you accepting the attack, and okaying it, but at the same time, remembering not to trust the person, but yet, that contradicts, the first statement.

Forgiveness, belongs to noone, IMNSHO, Noone deserves forgiveness, sanctity, help, burn in your hell for what you have done, and embrace it, because you have done it.

For all I have done, in an apparently short lifetime, I have received no forgiveness, from myself, or any others. And I expect the same for others.

Forgiveness, is not something given, it is a word, a word that is similar to deity.

It's a great concept, a awesome idea, ultimately, it's not real, without succumbing to delusion.

I like the saying that you should forgive but you don't have to forget.

What if we had the strength and the will to forgive 911. Would we than have seen 500 000 or more if not close to a million victims 911 has caused.

Is it right that nearly a million people should have to die because 4000 died on 911?

Would we have spared millions of people grief if we just had the strength and will to forgive but not forget. If we just had the will to try and solve the problem in a different manner the by the use of war.

Forgiveness is a good thing if the person you forgive respects your forgiveness. Though, if they're going to profit from people's misfortunes, then why should they be forgiven?

To forgive and forget is to build an illusion that forever skews your perspective and gives in to ignorance.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by Whine Flu]

I see you specify murder as the crime to be forgiven or not, so I'm unable to say whether or not forgiveness would be something I could manage

Which is strange, because as a child and even in my 20s and 30s, forgiveness was automatic for me .. easy .. not something I had to even think about.

What I did observe though, was that offenders didn't appreciate being forgiven. They took me for an idiot. And on many occasions, they repeated the offence. It hurt me, sure. I had to think about it. Did I have 'Stupid' written across my face ?

The answer, I feel, is 'yes'. The offenders weren't required to suffer, therefore they had no reason to alter their behaviours.

So, after studying other people and situations in their lives, I commenced a private experiment -- I would learn to hold a grudge and exact revenge.

You won't like this, but it was FAR more effective than my unstinting forgiveness had been.

Suddenly, I was granted respect

It was a valuable lesson. Went against everything I believed and was.

But this is the real world, not some Himalayan mountain top.

In any case, religions and their teachings and parables are often utilized for control .. to keep the people meek and obedient. And this is something often discussed in conspiracy sites, isn't it -- how the Church plays the role of policeman to benefit the State .. and the State rewards the Church variously.

So what we're TOLD the sages advised might be completely different to how those sages actually lived their lives, just as the clergy aren't as they portray themselves and are all to prone to very human failings in their private lives.

Ten or so years ago, my business partner embezzled from me several hundred thousand dollars. I'd put a decade and a half of my life and energy into the businesses, as well as encouraging my business partner (before we became partners) to keep trying, trying new things. I built up his confidence and covered for his mistakes. I went for years on next to no salary in order to put the money back in the business. I paid for every single item I took from the business, worked weekends, rarely had time off and all the time, boosting my partner to customers and suppliers alike. Saved him from going under time and again. And while all the time talking up the future, plans, and expressing what appeared to be sincere gratitude, he was siphoning off money, putting joint assets in his family member's names.

Sure, I should have had an eagle eye on what was going on. But it's difficult to demonstrate trust in someone if you're always over their shoulder. He'd had a bad reputation before I got involved. He'd embezzled funds from a sporting club, it was said. But he told me a different story and again, was very believable.

He left me with less than $500 to my name and walked away with over a million. I know now just how easy it is to do what he did. The law favours the crooks, basically. Not only did it leave me broke, it left me extremely disillusioned.

I still haven't managed to forgive my business partner. The only thing that saved my sanity was the fact that the experience led to a fantastic opportunity and led to one of the happiest periods of my life. So it's true sometimes that as a door closes, a window opens. But I was very lucky. Not everyone is as lucky.

The fact is, my business partner didn't stick the knife in once. If it had been just once, I could probably have understood and forgiving wouldn't be as difficult. Rather, he stuck the knife in repeatedly over a period of years, I was to learn at the end. Over and over, he was ripping me off behind my back. He was colluding with others against me and undermining my reputation at the same time he was systematically stealing from me. All the time, he could not have failed to be aware of the destruction he intended not just for me, but for my family.

So .. I haven't forgiven him and I doubt I will.

I hope he lives a very, very long time .. to 90 and beyond. I want him to live with what he did, long after his enjoyment of the money he took, has faded. I want him to see his approaching death and to wonder what lies ahead. I want him to scream my name as he dies. And if I see him in the hereafter, I think I'll kick him in the face.

Therefore, if someone murdered someone I loved, valued .. then I doubt I would forgive them. In fact, if I survived the grief, I suspect I would track them down and kill them slowly.

I'm honest with myself. Parables and platitudes are fine in books, as advice. But apart from 'sounding wise and good' .. what do they achieve if people are telling themselves, 'I must forgive. To forgive is holy. I will feel better if I forgive' .. yet in programming themselves in these beliefs, they are denying their rage and grief and sense of injustice ?

After all, in the Bible, it says 'eye for an eye'.

And God didn't forgive Satan, if we're to turn to the Bible for inspiration.

If God had forgiven Satan, then humankind wouldn't be stuck in this 'bad divorce' situation that is life on earth/in this dimension.

So the Biblical God should practice what he preaches. As above .. so below.

But who knows what lies ahead. Maybe in time I'll forgive my business partner. See no reason to do so, but perhaps the sense of betrayal will fade in time. But I'm not going to force or fake it. At the moment, I still want him to experience the same pain and suffering he so callously inflicted upon my family and me. Only if and when it does will HE acknowledge what HE did. Then .. let HIM come and seek my forgiveness. that might work for me. Plus a return of the money he stole from us

My boyfriend and I where accually talking about this last night. I just cannot do it, I will tell someone who appologises for doing me wrong that I forgive them. I think I do it selfishly because I don't want them to think that I am uncapable of forgiving them,or they might think I'm childish for holding onto the past. I really try to forgive them, and I act like I do, but I just can't let it go. I always think it will fade in time but it never does, I think its a matter of maybe I am forgiving them, maybe I just cant forget.
Then again, maybe I don't even know what forgivness accually is.
I keep those people in my life but I dont accually want them there, because everytime I look at them, I remember. But when they come appologising I just can't turn them away. Then I'm stuck with them..
But that's my fault, I guess I'm a weakling.

[edit on 06/10/2009 by jinx880101]

reply to post by jinx880101



You're not a weakling in my eyes

You're honest


And I'd rather have an honest person any day of the weak than a phony

The honest person is capable of continued growth


The phony is stunted .. does not grow .. is stagnant

Carrying negative emotions with you poisons you and your environment. Perhaps our poster up there who claims his life was ruined by criminals should be the first to let go. You exude fear and by doing so, you invite more fearful experiences until you no longer have any quality of life. Everything in life will be experienced as fear. To what end, I must ask?

Instead of "Forgive and forget", maybe it would be better to "Remember the lesson." The lesson is what is important. If you go through your life keeping all the packaging of every single item you buy or gift you receive, it won't be long before you are swimming in trash - all the bags and boxes, wrappers and receipts. Imagine it! How will you have room for all that? You won't. Let the stories go. Things change. Remember the good things and let the things that make you unhappy just slip away down the river of time. It serves no one to hold onto things.

Forgiveness means that you are taking the moral high road. But who of us all can claim that we haven't hurt someone, even gravely? There are a lot worse things than death, my friends. Much worse. Do you really think that event happened out of thin air?

All things are transient. Change is the only constant. Life your life and keep it flowing. Hate was what caused that event in the first place. By not letting go of that event, you perpetuate hate. You participate in the event. Is that really what you want? Or is that just fear talking? Take ownership of your emotional state. How many more victims do you want to surrender?

There are two ways to look at it. Secular and spiritual.

The secular says ... justice.
The spiritual says forgive and let God dish out the karma.

I say forgive (it's better for you in the long run) but if the situation demands justice first then by all means, hand out justice.

BTW - I like what the previous poster said about forgiveness and how the person receiving the forgiveness benefits if they RESPECT the forgiveness. Otherwise, the person being forgiven will see the forgiveness as weakness on the part of the forgiver and just commit the same crimes again ..

reply to post by St Vaast


What you say is so true, and very honest indeed! If I may quote you on this,

After all, in the Bible, it says 'eye for an eye'.

I found this as a child, and still to this day could not wrap my head around the contadiction. "An eye for an eye"vs"Always turn the other cheek"
Someone told me the contradictions are due to Jesus changing the rules in the new testament. So, do we believe God, or Jesus?
You are indeed right about the fact that God did not forgive satan, infact God is supposed to punish him with burning in a glorious fire in hell for all eternity. How is that for wrath/justice?

I think you should forgive, but also not be stupid.

I do think forgiveness is ALWAYS important though, as uncool as that might sound.

Originally posted by CosmicEgg


Instead of "Forgive and forget", maybe it would be better to "Remember the lesson." The lesson is what is important. If you go through your life keeping all the packaging of every single item you buy or gift you receive, it won't be long before you are swimming in trash - all the bags and boxes, wrappers and receipts. Imagine it! How will you have room for all that? You won't. Let the stories go. Things change. Remember the good things and let the things that make you unhappy just slip away down the river of time. It serves no one to hold onto things.

I like that. We don't have room for all to keep all of our stuff. Especially the bad things that have happened. We can try and stuff it all in, but eventually its like a plastic bag, gets too full and it rips open. If we keep refilling the bag every time it rips open with all of this stuff, how are we going to learn our lesson? I grew up with a mother and other family members who would often hold on to grudges for years, I think that is why she was unhappy a lot of the time. She still does to this day, although not to the extent that she used to.
Good thread... Very interesting to hear others views on this subject.

i had to forgive the brutal crime that affected my family. if i hadnt and i held on to it .. i would not be here to write this.
forgiveness for me was letting go of it .. it doesnt mean ."what you did was right" it is freeing yourself from the anger, rage, pain etc. it allows you to detach from it with love. it is not pardoning it or saying the behaviour was acceptable. if i hadnt forgiven and let go.. i would have imprisoned myself in the past and allowed the criminal to win!

love and light
ps

its pretty clear most people are one extreme or the other with forgiveness!!

It does seem so easy and cliche when you read about how you should forgive, when in reality I think its much much harder, especially if the event has affected your life in a big way.

on the other hand i love what "cosmic egg" says about keeping all the gift boxes, wrappers and receipts!!! Great stuff.

When I have forgiven in the past it has really felt like a huge weight has been shifted off my shoulders. It has made me learn from it yes, and never forget it, but ive let it go.

Maybe if something terrible, as mentioned by a couple of posters above were to happen, it would be much harder to forgive and let go, but I feel in the long run its freeing to do so.

To forgive others... possible.

To forgive oneself... hmmm... let me quote from the movie Stargate, which I keep this in my comment section on my profile:

[Quote from Stargate: The Ark of Truth]
(Teal'c and Tomin are onboard the Odyssey in the cafeteria).

Teal'c: Nothing I have done since turning against the Goa'uld would make up for the atrocities I once committed in their name. Somewhere deep inside you, you knew it was wrong, a voice you did not recognize screamed for you to stop. You saw no way out, it was the way things were and they cannot be changed, you try to convince yourself that the people you were hurting deserved it. You became numb to their pain and suffering. You learned to shut out the voice speaking against it.

Tomin: There's always a choice.

Teal'c: Indeed there is.

Tomin: I chose to ignore it.

Teal'c: Yet you sit here now.

Tomin: I sit here, and I cannot imagine the day that I will forgive myself.

Teal'c: Because it will never come. (pause) One day others may try to convince you they have forgiven you, that is more about them than you. For them, imparting forgiveness is a blessing.

Tomin: How do you go on?

Teal'c: It is simple; you will never forgive yourself, accept it! You hurt others, many others - that cannot be undone. You will never find personal retribution, but your life does not have to end. That which is right, just and true can still prevail. If you do not fight for what you believe in, all may be lost for everyone else. But do not fight for yourself, fight for others, others that may be saved through your effort. That is the least you can do.

reply to post by grantbeed


I think forgiving is essential to moving on. Resentment just eats you up inside. Some of the people posting replies seem to be missing the point - when you forgive, it's not for the other person, it's for yourself. I have forgiven my ex-wife for something appalling. I don't like her, love her, or want to do her any favours. I forgave her to let myself be free.

Not before I got some revenge, though...

Originally posted by grantbeed


Can we really forgive people who have comitted Murder, or Multiple murders?

Do not underestimate the power of true forgiveness.