9/11 Planning - Intended low death count?.

reply to post by jprophet420


My apologies, I meant to edit that post to be less condescending and got busy IRL. Anyway, the original estimates were 15-25 thousand as I have stated, so I think we just "got lucky" and didn't lose as many as we could have.

And also, I think the second strike was right where they wanted it to be on the second tower, and that they aimed poorly on the 1st. I agree with you In that aspect. The reason the base would be harder to hit in NYC is because of the skyline. Hitting the towers dead center would be the "best bet" imho.

[edit on 26-8-2009 by jprophet420]

Look over this map of WTC complex

Explain how someone is supposed to hit the base of the towers when
ringed with other buildings!

Map of area

wirednewyork.com...

World Financial Center buildings to the west

One World Financial Center (1986), height 577 ft (176 m), 40 stories

Two World Financial Center (1987), height 645 ft (197 m), 44 stories

Three World Financial Center (1985), height 739 ft (225 m), 51 stories

Four World Financial Center (1986) height 500 ft (152 m), 34 stories ("North Tower")

WTC 7 directly to north is 47 stories (new one is 52)

Right next door is Verizon Telephone building

Verizon Building is a 32-story at 140 West Street

On other side of WTC7 is 90 Church St

Between towers is Marriott Hotel (23 stories)

Directly east is Millenium Hilton Hotel (55 Church) and

1 Liberty Plaza - 54 stories

South is 90 West (23 stories) and

130 Liberty St (40 Stories)

Lowest building in area is 15 stories

Besides you tin foilers have always said that the hijackers couldn't fly !

So how do maneuver a 767 through the maze of buildings ?

Somewhat inconsistent....

Originally posted by thedman
Look over this map of WTC complex

Explain how someone is supposed to hit the base of the towers when
ringed with other buildings!

Map of area

wirednewyork.com...

World Financial Center buildings to the west

One World Financial Center (1986), height 577 ft (176 m), 40 stories

Two World Financial Center (1987), height 645 ft (197 m), 44 stories

Three World Financial Center (1985), height 739 ft (225 m), 51 stories

Four World Financial Center (1986) height 500 ft (152 m), 34 stories ("North Tower")

WTC 7 directly to north is 47 stories (new one is 52)

Right next door is Verizon Telephone building

Verizon Building is a 32-story at 140 West Street

On other side of WTC7 is 90 Church St

Between towers is Marriott Hotel (23 stories)

Directly east is Millenium Hilton Hotel (55 Church) and

1 Liberty Plaza - 54 stories

South is 90 West (23 stories) and

130 Liberty St (40 Stories)

Lowest building in area is 15 stories

Besides you tin foilers have always said that the hijackers couldn't fly !

So how do maneuver a 767 through the maze of buildings ?

Somewhat inconsistent....

Maybe the targets in my original post hindered the perfect approach across the water, just in case here`s the view again......

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d99d44b1fb4f.jpg[/atsimg]

Nice debunking though, right out of the NIST book of find answer twist question to suit.

EDIT: P.S.

P.S.

Gotta love you guys, you talk of avoiding buildings etc for an easy approach, completely disregarding Hani Hanjour`s flight of the bumble bee over at the Pentagon, why let facts get in the way of good old fashioned debunking hey?.

[edit on 18/08/2009 by Seventh]

reply to post by Seventh


Nice try whack job - using an outdated photo

Consult the map

wirednewyork.com...

Notice the World Financial Center buildings on west side of WTC complex ?
They were built after the completion of the WTC towers using landfill from the excavation...

Designed by César Pelli, with Adamson Associates, the complex was built by Olympia and York between 1985 and 1988 on landfill used to build Battery Park City. The fill material came from dirt excavated during the building of the World Trade Center, as well as garbage, dirt and debris.

Picture of western approach to WTC - tell me how you fly a 767 through
a forest of 40-50 story buildings.

Originally posted by thedman

Nice try whack job - using an outdated photo

Both towers can still be hit by a western approach the North Tower a lot easier, the South Tower by a steep decline maybe not directly at the base but a lot lower than it`s original impact.

Whack Job?, from someone whom really does believe Al Qaeda done this, a few examples of just how clinical your bad boys are......

Yemen - American battleship the Sullivans is in dock they hatch a plan to pilot a small boat into it loaded with explosives, they load the boat, about 10 metres into the journey it sinks, to much explosives on board.

Scotland - They decide to create carnage at Glasgow airport, 1st vehicle fully loaded with explosives, they watch in anguish as it gets towed away. Take two - they get a Jeep loaded with explosives and fail to notice bollards which they hit, one is set on fire and gets duly twatted by an angry Scotch guy who brakes a tendon in his foot kicking him in the balls.

So, the above clearly depicts that vehicles and Al Qaeda are not a very good terrorist combination, the Scotland incident happened a good few years after 9/11, from the most feared terrorist cell in the world due to their articulate planning and undertaking, to a twice failed drive a vehicle into somewhere full of explosives comedy like acts.

There`s nothing like plain examples of showing just how cave men type these alleged masters of technology terrorism really are, after all, just cave men.

And you believe through reading manuals and P.C. simulators they flew 3 planes into 3 buildings at obviously their very 1st attempt, when in other obvious cases their 1st attempts at far less intricate acts of terrorism failed abysmally, and in the Glasgow fiasco it actually failed twice.

And you call me a whack job

On a side note look back to 2007, when six would-be terrorists embarked on a plan to attack the Fort Dix military base in New Jersey. Rather than practising their covert plot,, they got a bunch of guns together and went down to a public shooting range with a video camera, where they proceeded to shoot at targets while screaming about their radical agenda. So now they've got their damning footage of them screaming, "WE'RE GOING TO DO TERROR! WOOOO!!!!"--but they weren't sure what to do with it (they didn't know how to get it off the camera). So to get it converted to DVD, they took it down to... Circuit City.

The "DVD Converting Guy" did some ace detective work and happened to notice that the entire videotape was chock-full of guns, rage, anti-American tirades and dudes talking about how they were totally going to charge the Fort Dix military base and knock it over. He quickly notified the authorities, the FBI investigated and the terrorists were promptly arrested.

Saddam Hussein`s crack squad thought they would try their luck also...The Plot Against the Thomas Jefferson Cultural Center, huge big bomb with timer in place, one terrorist set the timer to what he thought was 5 minutes .. 05:00, a few seconds later BOOM!!!..... the timer was upside down and had read 00:20.

The bomb explodes, disintegrating Ahmed and showering his partner Sa'ad with retard bits. A few minutes later, a passing taxi driver notices a dazed and confused man covered in blood wandering the empty streets. Being a Good Samaritan, he takes the shocked man to the local hospital, where the police coax and comfort him for a while, assuming him to be a victim, until they put the pieces together and arrest him.

If, me, not believing that the same type of people managed 9/11 and 7/7 London makes me a whack job, then fine i`m a whack job.

This is of course just one itsy bitsy slice of the circumstantial evidence pie, but however it tells a solid story.

As to out dated photos we are not all Americans, hence all we have are pictures on offer, my view still stands, south westerly to west approach looks okay.

Apparently having problems reading maps

wirednewyork.com...


Directly west of North Tower (WTC 1) is World Financial Center
Buildings WFC 2 (51 story), No 15 on map. Slightly North is
WFC 3 (54 story), No 14 on map - it was damaged by collapse of North Tower along with WTC7.

Directly south of South Tower is 130 Liberty St (40 story), No 20 on
map, damaged by collapse of South Tower. Southwest is WFC 1 (40
story), No 17 on map

Between towers was Marriott Hotel (WTC 3) - 23 story

Directly across river in Jersey City is Newport Town Center - a cluster
of 30-40 story office towers - incoming aircraft would have to avoid
them

I see you live in England - which accounts for your ignorance of the area

I live just west of NYC in New Jersey - I can see this entire area from
where I live! I have been in most of these buildings - have you?

reply to post by thedman


So now I have you roped in, care to explain why the worse by far pilot done exactly what you have popped a blood vessel in explaining the complete opposite?.

Novice pilots would not go for a high risk route would they?.

Involving intricate manoeuvres, to hit a part of the building where hardly anyone was.

As per normal plenty of why they didn`t, but no why they did.

Cannot have it both ways.

There`s a reason for everything, so why that wing at the Pentagon?.

reply to post by Seventh

There`s a reason for everything, so why that wing at the Pentagon?.

If you peruse some photos of the Pentagon, you'll see that the Southernmost side has extensive exterior steps, and other architectural components that would have mitigated the damage.

Looking at a map of the area, you can see the highway called "Columbia Pike' that extends to the West. It was a natural route. They had no idea as to the construction schedule at the building. I live here and had no idea, it wasn't exactly reported on as a major news story.

The topography of the area would also have indicated a River approach, but I think they were concerned with extra turns at the last moments...THAT would have required more skill. Bridges to dodge...could have been done. But, there are the bridges and things...could have hit the Easternmost side, over that little Marina...they chose the other approach.

As has been pointed out, and as you can see by watching the video made of the Flight Recorder data, his apparent first step was to find the bloody building! He saw it from above...remember, it's a low-lying building... then, knowing where it was, simply made a wide, not steep, very easy to do descending turn, lined up on the Columbia Pike highway, and followed it in.

They had probably already chosen Columbia Pike as the best approach, not knowing about the smaller number of employees in that West section. section.


[edit on 28 August 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by Seventh

Or... Hit the towers around the 80th storey thus missing out on the chance to kill those western pigs at a time the towers are relatively empty and hope the jet fuel flies down the elevator shafts and deposits itself all over each and every floor truss - catches alight and weakens every single weld/rivet/bolt in the place, whilst at the same time somehow vaporising the centre core aided with random items exploding and mostly none combustible office ware and furniture.

The fact you chose an outdated photo from the early 1970's tells me
you are either:

1) Not too bright

2) Deliberately dishonest

You made statements that the hijackers should have struck lower in
the buildings to maximize casualties . I have shown you that is impossible
given the dense cluster of buildings in the area - most 40 to 50 stories
in height

As for the WTC impacts -

AA11 came from the north, it follwed the Hudson River south. It impacted
the North face of WTC 1 (North) tower between 93 and 98 floors


UAL175 came from the south. It impacted the South-East Corner of WTC 2
(South) Tower between 78 and 83 floors

Map of impacts - aircraft debris locations



These approaches were straight in. The only problem was on UAL 175 when in final terminal dive built up too much speed and almost overshot,
hijacker banked plane at last moment to impact buuilding.

As for timing - said that hijackers should have waited later until buildings
full

Hijackers had to seize the aircraft early in the morning for number of
reasons

1) Most transcontinent flights leave around 8AM Eastern (unlike your crummy little island we have 4 time zones (7 if count Alaska/Hawaii)
This is peak time with maximum amount of flights available

2) Hijackers needed to leave as early as possible to preserve attack
timing - as day goes on delays increase from weather/mechanical problems. Witness Flight 93 which left late - passengers able to find
out what was in store and take action

This meant attacks would come around 9-9:30 AM

Oher reasons for light people load

1) Sept 11 was Election day in NYC, primary for mayor election in November. Many stopped to vote

2) Schools had just opened in area - parents were still registering children
at new schools

I suppose you will now say that it was planned this way - so cleaver
to stage attack when many people would be absent from work...

reply to post by weedwhacker


Okay WW great explanation, but, why that approach on a perimeter wall, and not a descent into the centre of that wing?, still does not make sense imo

Originally posted by thedman






You mention me being......

1) Not too bright

Then to enforce your superior intelligence you write.......

(unlike your crummy little island we have 4 time zones (

reply to post by Seventh


I can't be inside his head, only guess.

I think they just were intent on "ramming". Of course, going in through the roof would have been much, much worse, more damage and deaths. Lucky they weren't smart enough to realize that.

And, not sure his aim would have been that good, only one try, right?

Lining it up in your windshield....many seconds to finalize the aim, is easier than a steep dive, which would actually need MORE experience. Or, a low approach as was done, but just slightly above the roofline, THEN into the center, again would have been much worse, and THAT probably was within his skill level.

Originally posted by weedwhacker

I can't be inside his head, only guess.

I think they just were intent on "ramming". Of course, going in through the roof would have been much, much worse, more damage and deaths. Lucky they weren't smart enough to realize that.

And, not sure his aim would have been that good, only one try, right?

Lining it up in your windshield....many seconds to finalize the aim, is easier than a steep dive, which would actually need MORE experience. Or, a low approach as was done, but just slightly above the roofline, THEN into the center, again would have been much worse, and THAT probably was within his skill level.

Well it`s hard to try and depict what was going on in his head, but if it were me I would pretty much guarantee I would take the descent route, you can be slightly off here and still hit your target, and it`s a lot less risk, and we are talking of Hani Hanjour here.

But from our pov it makes a whole lot more sense to hit this wing, construction work = closed wing = planting stuff was no risk.

On a completely different note but very much plane orientated, I have done my best to look at the flight data etc and tbh it leaves me with a headache lol, but if I have read it correctly the timings of when one plane started to diverse and go off it`s intended course is very close to when another impacts, the plane going off course just minutes before another hits it`s target.

As there could possibly be no communication between the 4 teams of hijackers and one plane was delayed for 40 plus minutes how did this seemingly display of intricate timings take place?. (if you understand what I mean) .

reply to post by Seventh


"Intricate timing"? No, if this had been a "black Ops" lilke some tend to believe, the timing would have more precise.

AA 77 took off at about 0820, was hijacked at about 0852. I can see that the autopilot wasn't disconnected for several minutes, Hanjour was likely getting acquainted...calming down, whatever.

The fact that UA 93 had the long taxi delay was not known, nor would it have mattered, each "team" were on their own.

Who knows why they waited longer to storm the cockpit on UA 93? Only four of them, were nervous, waited for opportunity...timing of take-over on United was about 0930....AA77 had already arrived back in DC area by then. Good thing the four on UA 93 were slow to act.

reply to post by Seventh


I ' m trying to understand why you would use such an outdated photo
to prove your point

Considering it takes less than 30 seconds to come up with numerous
photos of WTC complex showing the surrounding buildings as would be
there on Sept 11