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Right to bear arms or right to private property?

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posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 03:49 AM
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I'd like to hear your opinions on a subject I've been thinking a lot about lately. I've been watching that HBO series Deadwood, brushing up on my US history, especially when it comes to the Old West. I often analyze my life, our country (USA) and society in general. I feel like most Americans (let alone most of the world) are simply slaves nowadays. Most of us rely on others for just about every aspect of our lives. Transportation, healthcare, food, safety, income, shelter. Gone are the days of growing your own food, plowing your own field, milking your own cow, cutting down trees and building your own house, carrying a gun with you whenever and wherever you wanted, and using a horse to get around.

Take a horse for example. A horse doesn't require gas. You can breed as many as you want for free. Atleast you used to be able to. I mean life was hard back in the old west..........but it sure was a helluva lot more free than nowadays. I realize life was hard and dangerous back then but haven't we traded true freedom and liberty for comfort and entertainment? I think so.

Which brings me to my next point...........I don't believe we can truly be a free human being unless we own property........i.e. the kind of property that allows us the potential if need be to take care of ourselves and not rely on others. I.e. corporations, government. I almost feel property is more important to freedom than the right to bear arms.

I guess sometimes I feel I was born in the wrong century. I find life of technology kind of boring and fake. Maybe in my past life I was an explorer or even better a Native American. Who knows. My spirit is definitely not cut out for 21st century society.

What's more important to freedom in your opinion............guns or property? I'd say property first. And guns to defend it.




posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 04:25 AM
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reply to post by Zosynspiracy
 


Interesting POV you have there. But these days most people dont know the difference between a cow and a bull. Not to mention when just looking at them, which one gives milk and which one will give you a kick swift in the head or maybe follow you around the farm....

Growing veggies is a lost art as well as fruit and how to take care of them for when you want them out of season...

So much to say here and I have to get some sleep.....



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 05:06 AM
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Honestly, I think we should have both rights - the right to our property, and a right to defend those that live there.

We've traded a lot, and allowed a lot to be taken. Old ways were simpler, and with the advent of things via the industrial age on to the technological age, we've succeeded in making life harder, more complicated than it needs to be.



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 05:17 AM
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Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
I'd like to hear your opinions on a subject I've been thinking a lot about lately. I've been watching that HBO series Deadwood, brushing up on my US history, especially when it comes to the Old West. I often analyze my life, our country (USA) and society in general. I feel like most Americans (let alone most of the world) are simply slaves nowadays. Most of us rely on others for just about every aspect of our lives. Transportation, healthcare, food, safety, income, shelter. Gone are the days of growing your own food, plowing your own field, milking your own cow, cutting down trees and building your own house, carrying a gun with you whenever and wherever you wanted, and using a horse to get around.

Take a horse for example. A horse doesn't require gas. You can breed as many as you want for free. Atleast you used to be able to. I mean life was hard back in the old west..........but it sure was a helluva lot more free than nowadays. I realize life was hard and dangerous back then but haven't we traded true freedom and liberty for comfort and entertainment? I think so.

Which brings me to my next point...........I don't believe we can truly be a free human being unless we own property........i.e. the kind of property that allows us the potential if need be to take care of ourselves and not rely on others. I.e. corporations, government. I almost feel property is more important to freedom than the right to bear arms.

I guess sometimes I feel I was born in the wrong century. I find life of technology kind of boring and fake. Maybe in my past life I was an explorer or even better a Native American. Who knows. My spirit is definitely not cut out for 21st century society.

What's more important to freedom in your opinion............guns or property? I'd say property first. And guns to defend it.


Alright, you have the right to your property. I also have the right to take your property from you because you aren't in a position to defend it without firearms.

Wait, so you say me, the criminal can't buy a gun because they're banned.. and therefore I can't take your property? Well, y'know, I could just make one because I didn't intend on following the law in the first place. You of course follow the law, and don't obtain a weapon illegally, so its pretty safe to say you haven't got a chance of stopping me because I got my hands on a gun anyway. They may ban them, but that ban only applies to those who decide to follow the law, and those aren't the ones we should be worrying about.



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 05:24 AM
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reply to post by angrysniper
 


What's your point? I said Property first guns second. Or maybe you can't have one without the other. Or hell maybe our society is complete and utter BS and in the words of this Indian:

Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men,
we didn't have any kind of prison. Because of this, we had no delinquents.
Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.
We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves.
When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket,
he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.
We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property.
We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being
was not determined by his wealth.
We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians,
therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.
We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know
how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things
that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society.

John (Fire) Lame Deer
Sioux Lakota - 1903-1976



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 05:29 AM
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reply to post by orderedchaos
 


I think life is way too fast nowadays. Why does it have to be structured the way it is? Like Chief Seattle said...........It' the end of living and the beginning of survival. I'm an a Native American wisdom kick so pardon me.



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
reply to post by angrysniper
 


What's your point? I said Property first guns second. Or maybe you can't have one without the other. Or hell maybe our society is complete and utter BS and in the words of this Indian:

Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men,
we didn't have any kind of prison. Because of this, we had no delinquents.
Without a prison, there can be no delinquents.
We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves.
When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket,
he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift.
We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property.
We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being
was not determined by his wealth.
We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians,
therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another.
We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know
how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things
that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society.

John (Fire) Lame Deer
Sioux Lakota - 1903-1976


My point, which I thought was obvious, was that you can't have property without the means to defend it. So yes, in one way you can't have one without the other, at least in the long term. I wasn't disagreeing with you though, just trying to write out an example that illustrates that point so that others would be able to understand it. There are a lot of people in the world that are under the impression that the 2nd amendment, the right to bear arms, is about anything other than preventing the government of the time from overstepping its boundaries.

Some think its about hunting, and fail to do any intellectual weight lifting by researching the history of this country and why the founding fathers made it a point to protect that right. Many do not understand that the right to bear arms is something that every human possesses regardless of what country they live in and whether or not their laws recognize that right as such.



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 11:39 AM
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I have thought long and hard about this.
Guns, no problem, take mine I will make another.
gunpowder is easily made and from hydraulic shock housing to old water pipes, all that is needed is a barrel.
Land, no need I'm mobile.
But think about this.
We go to work 8-10 hours a day 50 weeks a year.
Think how much you could do @ home or independantly, towards providing food and shelter for a family.
The initial start is the hardest time, but after that, 4 hours a day, of actual "work" is enough..
And after a few years, you start accumualating a stock/reserve of canned goods/salted meat ect ect...
Not to mention the childeren learning more, having more parrental respect, and seeing what it really takes to survive!
But this goes against the "system" and TPTB want ppl to think they are needed, and to teach our childeren that the most important thing is, don't make waves and its "who" you know , not "what" you know that makes a person valuable.........sad really sad



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 12:44 PM
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Freedom's inside you, first and foremost, imo

As to the 'slavery' you feel we suffer --- again, it's all a matter of perspective

The 'old days' appeals to the romantic in those who didn't live it. But the reality wasn't as it's portrayed in Hollywood westerns.

People who were genuinely self-sufficient 'back then', drew their water from a well and did without electricity. They didn't have holidays (who would look after the animals and crops ?). They got up with the sun and worked, often 12 and 14 hour days.

If the weather was poor, so were their harvests. They lived outside town. No convenience stores. They made their own clothing and furniture and it had to last. Accidents, injury and death were common. 'Store bought' was a luxury.

It was Americans who voted in those politicians who promised earlier and earlier school age. So what was happening there -- did parents want to get rid of their children, or was it because they wanted their children to get an education and a different kind of life to their parents ? Or .. was it because with the kids at school at increasingly younger age, it freed their mothers to work and bring in much needed money ?

Anyway, instead of bartering for what they needed/wanted, people found it easier to work, get paid and have a choice .. by buying items in stores rather than swapping two days labour for a loan of their neighbour's machine.

Children wanted to live a different life, wanted excitement, choice, opportunity that couldn't be found on the farm or small town.

In order to live, they had to work. So they took jobs in factories etc. in larger towns and cities. They traded some of their wage for pre-packaged foods, for ready-made clothes, for a car instead of public transport, for a night at the theatre instead of playing board games, for a new pair of shoes instead of repairing their old ones. Instead of having to kill a whole beast and all it entails, they exchange half an hour's work for a piece of steak.

Convenience, it used to be called. Progress. But there were downsides to all the convenience, such as overcrowding, working hand to mouth, wanting more than there was money for.

I think you'll find that people created their own 'slavery' and still do. No one is stopping anyone from walking the nation with a pack on their back or living off the land in the woods. But most people don't want to. They like their hot showers and electricity and tv and computers and hair dryers.

Owning property is great. But you're only swapping a landlord for a mortgage. Either way, there are rules and there have to be, to protect the weak from the ruthless.

There are times a gun can save a life, prevent a rape or robbery. But it can go wrong too. Gun ownership brings responsibilities, expense, maintenance. A gun is no gaurantee you'll feel or be 'free'.

Most wouldn't know what to do with unlimited freedom. It's a word, a concept. And what's 'liberty' ? Can you imagine a world filled with people exercising what they consider their right to freedom and liberty ? It could get messy very quickly.

'Getting away from it all ' is a nice pipe-dream, but not everyone who does it succeeds. And many try it only to decide it's too much hard work, or too isolated or limiting and return to the life they knew with fresh appreciation.





[edit on 24-8-2009 by St Vaast]



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 04:53 PM
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Wow St Vaast

That is a great post.
I agree with everything you said. I have thought about chucking it all in and going off somewhere to live on the land as it were.
I don't think I could kill an animal for food to save my life. I have never had a garden and wouldn't know a safe plant to eat from a deadly one. Of course I could try to learn all these things but it would take a Loooooooooong time.
I tried to check out canning reciently and have to laugh at myself, I don't know how they did it back in the Olden days, and I am wondering how many of the stomach ailments and even deaths were caused by improper food handeling back then.
To have a simpler life would be so nice. But you do have to make it yourself in the best way you can.
The old west wasn't all it is cracked up to be.



posted on Aug, 24 2009 @ 05:22 PM
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My dad's cousin did a lot of work on our family tree and I finally got a look at it. I was blown away at how old my relatives lived to be in the 1700's and 1800's. On my grandmother's side we are descended from Daniel Boons' oldest sister Sarah. They had a lot of children back in the day and I did not see many infant deaths either. Back in those days they did have to be more self sufficient and were way smarter than we all think we are. Through the generations, the public schools and universities have all had an agenda in the way they have programmed and conditioned the masses.

I have my own cow I milk and I can just about everything. I have a hard time getting people to even taste the raw milk after it's been chilled. It's so easy to run to the store and buy everything we need, but the day is coming when we will find out how much we have become slaves to an easy life.

OP, I agree with you completely. Good thread!



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