The God Scenario I

Hi! This is my first thread, so be kind!

I was having a conversation with a friend about God. He is a bad example of an atheist, very ignorant in arguments against religion - he uses sweeping generalizations and proclaims science in an almost religious-like way - and really the equivalent of a Christian who has never read the Bible for himself but proclaims faith. Anyway, the biggest argument we have is God's inaction (?) in matters of suffering and the problem of evil. I said, as an atheist now and as a former Christian, suffering, war, famine, are a natural part of life and all you can do is be fortunate. Not only that but whether one believes in God or not, one must at least hold man accountable for the suffering as well.

Of course, he counters my argument stating that God, if exist, intentionally does nothing, but for God, I say, to step in every wrongdoing would limit our learning from mistakes, limit human freedom. One may say, "Well, starving people in Africa is not a liberty or a condition they desire." No, but I personally think world governments really could care less about them or other countries in need of food and care. Take the fact that people in Darfur actually PROTESTING genocide. You would think genocide happening would be a direct cause for the UN to step in and crush those evildoers by force, but no. People have to protest for something that is mindbogglingly wrong and neglected.

So, annoyed, I posed a scenario for the man. I stated, "If you were God, and you were walking with a pitied friend who loves and adores you, suddenly two people come up and beat that friend, what would you do (as God)? Before you answer, here are your stipulations:

-These two are also your dear friends (whom you are very close with) but the 1st friend is just unlikeable by most people except you and they decide to beat him/her up because they are under the belief that he deserves it.

-You have the physical strength or at least the knowledge of how to defeat these people by yourself.

-No magic or miracles allowed. And no "cut the man in half and see which person cares the most to give him up" a la Solomon.

- Intellectually, you are wiser than the both of them but they do this on principle and cannot be distracted by your reasoning.

-In place of magic, you have a revolver in your back pocket.

- No punishment will be given to you if you use your strength or the gun.

- As it pertains to people believing God on their side in war, the friends insist on you helping. They back this up with the fact the 1st friend is a coward, not for not fighting, but in all aspects of life. In fact, he/she doesn't scream or move or anything. He/she takes it while zoning out, wide-eyes. This is because he is focus on you. You are the one true happiness in his life. He knows the beating will go on forever.

- The entire world is watching. And whatever you do will be expected of you by the world to do for them.

What action is to be taken? How does God (you) reacts to a single person's suffering? Does he walk away? Take action by force or diplomacy? Or do you watch the beating and take no part in it (for the 1st friend IS a pitiful person who demands people to feel sorry for him)? If you side with one, what does that say about God and the other side? Is not the aggressors' beating justified by the fact the 1st friend does absolutely nothing? Decisively takes no actions for himself. Doesn't care even if they were to kill him because you are the only meaningful thing to him. He knows in your eyes, he will find a friend.

Hope you guys like the scenario. I would say "peace," but NWO might censor it.

reply to post by DevilJin


I would do Nothing, And Let them do what they wish. If you were given the free will to do as you wish, it should not be taken for any reason, good or evil. They have to deal with the consequences of their own actions at their own expense.

Rekar

I would wonder why I, as God, would have to deal with so many stipulations. I'd probably ponder that for too long and everyone would end up beaten to a pulp.

You see, if you believe in an omniscient, omnipotent being, then it doesn't make any sense to ask questions about them having human limitations.

What do I think God does? He trusts us and hopes for our best. His art is science and he allowed us to become what we are. Nothing more. He waits for us to ascend.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I would wonder why I, as God, would have to deal with so many stipulations. I'd probably ponder that for too long and everyone would end up beaten to a pulp.

You see, if you believe in an omniscient, omnipotent being, then it doesn't make any sense to ask questions about them having human limitations.

What do I think God does? He trusts us and hopes for our best. His art is science and he allowed us to become what we are. Nothing more. He waits for us to ascend.

Well, sometimes the best action is inaction.

About human limitations. If we are to say God exist, then we do have the freedom of choice, despite some parts of life being determined already. Lucifer had the freedom to rebel. And instead of sending him into non-existent, for some reasons, the story drags it on like some drama unfolding, thus it is not as simple as one would think.

And who said God is really omnipotent or omniscient? How do we know that when we have no standard view of what God is or his nature? What determines a god? If we are to say God exist, then God setting boundaries for himself are essentially limitations.

God's art being a science, and not science as you would be liable to scores of contradictions between religion and science, perhaps.

reply to post by DevilJin


If your god why is there no magic or miracles....????

Your propsed question is FLAWED. Atleast use the rules and guidlines set in the book of fariy tales called, the "bible".

Originally posted by DevilJin

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I would wonder why I, as God, would have to deal with so many stipulations. I'd probably ponder that for too long and everyone would end up beaten to a pulp.

You see, if you believe in an omniscient, omnipotent being, then it doesn't make any sense to ask questions about them having human limitations.

What do I think God does? He trusts us and hopes for our best. His art is science and he allowed us to become what we are. Nothing more. He waits for us to ascend.

Well, sometimes the best action is inaction.

About human limitations. If we are to say God exist, then we do have the freedom of choice, despite some parts of life being determined already. Lucifer had the freedom to rebel. And instead of sending him into non-existent, for some reasons, the story drags it on like some drama unfolding, thus it is not as simple as one would think.

And who said God is really omnipotent or omniscient? How do we know that when we have no standard view of what God is or his nature? What determines a god? If we are to say God exist, then God setting boundaries for himself are essentially limitations.

God's art being a science, and not science as you would be liable to scores of contradictions between religion and science, perhaps.

In my opinion, both religion and science contradict themselves individually on a daily basis anyway.

I don't think we have even an amateur knowledge of either God or science, which is why I think they have quite a lot to do with one another.

I always tell people, I don't believe in magic, but I believe in God. I think God is a thing. I think he is a perfectly explainable entity, but we don't have the capacity to explain or understand it.

santaclaus,

in a way you are right,
but you take it to easy in my view,

truth is always able to explain itself
because it's not difficult, always logic

so why do you not allow your
goal to be higher then the lie
that truth is not explainable

it's simply not true,
you can explain god
by seeing what he is not first

reply to post by pasttheclouds


I think its perfectly okay to concede that there are some things that we are limited in our abilities to understand.

And its not a matter of logic. What is logical to me is very relative and may not relate to your logic.

yes ofcourse
but that honesty
will lead you to DO understand

Truth is truth for a reason eh
sorry, there is no difference between logic and truth.
okay your logic is a stage, but it is unveiling more of it,
and logic is absolute in the end, as truth

Thousands of years people say
god is not explainable
but they did accuse others in this truth,
it is not true, truth is explainable
one day there is no escape
of the truth and he will pull you in,



people will not believe it
until they see it
and it's normal, that's honesty,
so god will show it again
soon. and will have to 'suffer', take it on him again,
because people will be afraid,
for that which they did not prepare to understand.

it doesnt matter, there is no way to truth without honesty,
so the only right direction is honesty.

[edit on 22-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

[edit on 22-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

My personal view is that everyone takes everything to seriously.
While at times, "more often than not" a lot of people consider me a wordy and arrogant geek, it is only their own failure to imagine other scopes of possibility, that make me seem so.
They are so entrenched in their own little pockets of reality, the cannot see over the wall.

Much the same thing can be said about people's views of god and religion.
We tend to rely on them to give us answers, and are waiting for intervention.
We are human beings and it's time we woke up.
What I mean by that, is for us to stop waiting and take responsibility for our own actions.
I guess that would fall under the understanding that GOD hope for the best for us.
We have no one to blame for inaction but ourselves.
People seem to fail to understand as well, that life is cumulative.
Lets say that some injustice happens to a person, people see, but no one intervenes, that persons family, or the person themselves, is now set on a path of retribution.
No one intervened in the first place.
Is this the responsibility of human beings?
This singular situation can have the butterfly effect on an entire society.
That society in turn affects another, etc. etc....

God gave us our free will.
That does not mean that we can do any damn thing we want.
That means that we now have a responsibility to control our free will and use it as the awesome and powerful tool it is, by not only caring for ourselves, but for others as well.
We are truly the stewards or our own humanity.
This is what I believe GOD had/has intended for us.









[edit on 8/22/2009 by reticledc]

Math makes more sense to me than God, religion and science.

The Bible is basically a compilation of stories from various sub-sects in the early Christian era. But the bottom line is the same, obey the commandments. The "in a nutshell" form of this is in the 10 Commandments of the old testament. A more in depth version is in the New Testament and the apocrypha since people have confused "Thou Shalt not Kill et. al" with only the physical form of killing et. al.

People should read the scriptures as well as practice the commandments for their well being. The world will have no need for negative things like wars and such if people have practiced and adhered to these commands.

Salvation should be a secondary priority in reading and practicing one's own religion since not everyone believes in the after-life for their own respective reasons.

Mental, spiritual, and physical well being is what is being ordered by "God". It is for the good of the world and its inhabitants. They're pretty much common sense. But common sense is not common to everybody.

In a personal note, I was born a Catholic, but has shifted to being a "Christian/Protestant". Changed to an aetheist once I got into college. Then researched on the Christian religion, aetheism, etc. and their relationship with modern science/mathematics since it's a very curious subject. I don't think I'll find the answer on what is right in my lifetime since it is too deep.

I have no right to confirm nor deny religion nor do I have the right to call myself an atheist, an agnostic, faithful or whatnot unless I have read and understood the scriptures from both sides exhaustively.

If you were God

Ok.

No magic or miracles allowed.

Wrong. You've just said that I'm God. I make the rules. Not you.

What action is to be taken?

All.

How does God (you) reacts to a single person's suffering?

Since I'm God, I was aware of the suffering before it happened. I experience the suffering as vividly as the person being beaten. I also experience the encounter from the perspective of those doing the beating. I am the beaten. I am the beater. I perceive the entire encounter from all possible perspectives, and I was aware of these persepectives long before they manifested as reality.

Does he walk away? Take action by force or diplomacy?

Yes. Yes. And Yes. I do all of those. And every other action you can imagine as well. I do, be, am, know, act upon and perceive them, and have done so since long before either of these people had been born. Long before their human race had been created. Long before the planet earth was brought into being.

Your every act of kindness, your every act of cruelty, I am. Every hug, every kiss, every snuggle, I am. Every rape, murder and genocide, I am. The warmth and affection of a young man giving a rose to his very first love. The starvation and suffering of that flower as it gasps for water from the dying stalk it was cut from. I am.

How does God (you) reacts

I am God. I do not "react." I am reaction. I am action. I am all.


[edit on 23-8-2009 by LordBucket]

reply to post by DevilJin

Of course, he counters my argument stating that God, if exist, intentionally does nothing, but for God, I say, to step in every wrongdoing would limit our learning from mistakes, limit human freedom. One may say, "Well, starving people in Africa is not a liberty or a condition they desire."

I beleive what you are saying about humans having to learn from their mistakes. That above there is a fine example...there (Africa) was the fertile cresent the beginning of mankind, it was not just the government's greed and carelessness that leaves Africa into the deplorable state they're in. The People the citizens had part in it also. They deforested the land stripped it of all it's resources and turned it into the deplorable state it is in now, No trees were ever planted just hacked down and the land which already never recieved much rainfall, became worse because there are no trees to hold and contain the moisture in the soil and to bring the moisture back to the atmosphere, and yet we in America are letting this happen to us as well, will we never learn? Is it any wonder how God must feel at this point that any intervention is just futile?

[edit on 23-8-2009 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 23-8-2009 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 23-8-2009 by ldyserenity]

God is in peace with our worlds evil,
otherwise he is not everything,
its becasue he is everything, and one, he is your result once,
that you allow yourself to be hurted from the point
where you are allready out of time.