Is this the end?, page 2
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reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 03:01 AM by calstorm
reply to post by Jim Scott

Can you please provide scriptural reference to a 3rd coming?

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Treasury of Scripture Knowledge] [Concordance and Hebrew/Greek Lexicon] [List Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries] [Hymns] [Versions / Translations] [Dictionary Aids] [Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Treasury of Scripture Knowledge] [Concordance and Hebrew/Greek Lexicon] [List Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries] [No Images or Hymns Available] [Versions / Translations] [Dictionary Aids] [Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So are yo saying the elect in vs. 31 are involved in a second rapture?


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 03:59 AM by Perseus Apex
.........Or the beginning.

I suppose it depends on what side your on.

If you feel whole inside, not perfect though 'content', I suppose there is a Reason for hope. If one doesn't feel Right with oneself and the world around him, he is either not 'tuned' in correctly or refusing to tune in to what he knows is the wrong frequency.

The Stars and Planets of the cosmos move to an order. Seems everything is quite orderly though everchanging/evolving to a new reality.

I suppose everything evolves to a higher order in the End. Human intellect seems awkwardly out of place with the rest of life on the planet Earth. Seems other-worldy and Creative at the same time. Perhaps this because it is 'other-wordly'.

If one's Spirit is 'alien' to the Earth, why would an 'alien' be alien to the Earth? Perhaps the concept of an 'alien' has always been designed to keep one from looking 'outward' for answers to their identities and possibility of acquiring advanced abilities? Most are afraid to look inward for fear of what they may find. They seem programmed or conditioned to Follow another for guidance or to fear their inherent freedoms.

If one asked an Angel or 'like' being what order he subscribed to,
would he not look surprised by the question?
Only if he was unfamiliar with that-that asked.

The word 'Angel' has an interesting connotation these days depending on who you ask though I'd have to insert that one's sight limits one's perception as blindness increases one's In-sight. Blind animals die whereby blind humans excel in areas unseen to most. Scientists should investigate this conscious/subconcious connection and how/why they are intertwined. There seems to be little 'published' research in this area.

I had a Grandmother who became blind from the age of 23. She liked to hold my hand while I talked. She passed while I was young so my experiences of her were based on my development at that age. She had developed abnormally accurate alternate senses which made up for her lack of visual sight.

The brain seems to rewire itself to adjust to it's new environment by forming new interconnections while allocating the previously used Energy of the eye to that of the other senses. She always seemed to know where everyone was and what mood they were in. She was the most peaceful being I ever knew and never heard her raise her voice or get upset and she had a very positive energy which she would pass on to me while we spoke.

I suppose what I'm trying to explain is that when one can get in tune with another on the same energy frequency, they compliment each others beings, enhancing the essence of 'being'. Some are as magnets in a room. There positive energy reels you in. They are 'content' with their current existence. Very, very rare to find though when seen, quite obvious. To find one's third Eye should be as truly seeing the world around you for the first time though with much more understanding and appreciation that seems to skip from the daily conscious.

One's intellect guided by one's Soul (positive energy) separates one from the animal kingdom. Often, man denies his instinct for another's program.

It seems most are programmed by an unknown author and the subjects are beginning to see themselves as a part of their Creator.

The One always consumes the part in the End as the part makes up the whole by Design.
But then again words themselves are quite limited in and of themselves.
Man never needed a word to design a wheel.
He 'visioned' a wheel in a cave so they say.
They all thought he was crazy till they saw how much free time he had at the end of the day.
It just came to him?
They were soon to follow.
The wheel was a major turning point for the development of mankind.
That's where it starting to get interesting. When mankind ac-know-ledges the Power or Vision from within and applies it to the world about him, new worlds abound.

I feel fortunate to be here to witness what is to come.
It's been a long time coming though I've yet to see anyone post the final result. People seem to be hitting around the edges though never seem to package it all together very well.

I suppose this has to do with dimensional realities. This is the best I can do to ex-plane it.

Alot will be 'explained' in the near future, this I am sure of. Your senses are quite accurate. We have 'senses' for Good Reason.

I've often found it interesting how the 90 degree angle of attack of a Knight on a chessboard defeats anything in it's way provided the player knows how to use his piece. I'm sure there's a reason why a said this since I said it for a Reason. It needed to be said.

There is meaning in everything if we choose to See it.
Most are forbidden from discoverying themselves.
Most I see are unpolished gems waiting to be discovered.
Never turn in 'your' key. You shouldn't have to hide it.

Very seldom do I see one in 'tune' with his Nature and the nature around them.
It's never wrong though often mis-perceived.
Should we mistrust/ignore Nature when it is the Revelation of Creation itself?

Nothing follows.
It's here already.


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 08:13 AM by JustG
Originally posted by calstorm
reply to post by JustG


Mathew Ch 24 makes it quite clear that the rapture will be post trib. I was acutally going to start a new thread to discuss this, but if the OP doesn't mind we can discuss it here.
Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Treasury of Scripture Knowledge] [Concordance and Hebrew/Greek Lexicon] [List Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries] [Hymns] [Versions / Translations] [Dictionary Aids] [Select for Copy; Double click to (de-)select all] Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[
Notice it says Immediately after the tribulation...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
No doubt in my mind that it is post tribulation.

We may not know the hour or the day but I think we will know with in a 3 month time frame IMHO. 5 of the 7 trumpets have already sounded. the 6th trumpet which starts the 7 year period is predicted to sound either Oct. or Dec. of this year.
Need proof that 5 of the 7 trumpets have already sounded? I highly recommend you watch them all.

[edit on 23-8-2009 by calstorm]


My question is, some believe there will be two returns of Christ. One where He comes as in the rapture and the other when he comes in His glory. Your verse above could be interpreted as the 2nd. I won't go into too much detail as the subjects can get very intricate. If you want to create the thread on its own, I'd definitely like to take part in it.


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 10:37 AM by OmegaLogos
Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I am not a scientific/legal or medical expert in any field. Beware of my Contagious Memes! & watch out that you don't get cut on my Occams razor.All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: I would posit that regardless of worrying about whether it is the End/Begining/Middle of this/that or the other, try instead focusing on YOUR God/dess because thats what really counts! Also I would posit that just as one can not be sure of the timing or placement of the enemies attack, then one should remain vigilant until the "thief" exposes themselves!

Personal Disclosure: Sigh! I'm a little disturbed by what I'm about to do but I'm hardly shy so here goes....

Focusing on your God and not on armageddon/end times etc as based in scripture! [All scriptures are KJV and sourced from blueletterbible.org ]

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

******

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

******

Phl 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Phl 3:19 Whose end [is] destruction, whose God [is their] belly, and [whose] glory [is] in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Phl 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

[Note Bold my emphasis insinusating that focusing on the END is probably an earthly thing!]

*******

1Cr 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord [i.e. His timing of coming as a thief], that he may instruct him? [2012??? But won't everybody be expecting that my Lord?] But we have the mind of Christ.[Just what you christians should really be focusing on Hmmm! ]

[Note All comments in brackets for the above scripture are my Edits!]

*******
1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I Hope that helps.

P.S. I feel all dirty now [mumbles about throwing pearls before swine and so on etc]


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 02:15 PM by open_eyeballs
reply to post by JustG


That is not unbelievable given the current push for world government, one currency etc etc we see today.


Could it not be discerned that at the height of the Roman Empire there was a push for world government?

Or how about Alexander the Greats Micedonian empire? How about the Persians?

Or better yet, and the closest to complete such a feat the British Empire.

My point is that your assertion that because we are moving toward one world government is not only inaccurate, but there have been times in history where the world has been much closer to a real one world government.

In my opinion, a natural progression to national policies becoming more united on a worldly scale is not only essential but also for the betterment of mankind. hopefully in the end our freedoms will remain and wars will be a thing of the past...Of course that will always be an uphill battle...But due to a more integrated world political forum that all members can share maybe we will one day find peace...

Also, I would like to add He (Jesus) believed His generation was going to see the 'end of days'. He was an armageddonist. Just as many Jews of the day were...The Essenes are a great example of this dominate style of thinking... Many biblical scholars point to the similarities in his teachings and those found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I think it comes down to a romanticised version many Christians are taught and like to believe today where they are going to be whisked away to heaven during the rapture and all those unbelievers will be cast in to darkness back here on earth.

Not only do I find these concepts a perversion of the bibles good intentions and basic humanalities, I think the prophetic doomsday passages in particular are mostly taken out of context and their allegorical or metaphorical purposes brushed aside by those with an arrogant self serving agenda.

To be clear...that is not speaking of all the believers of such teachings. It is speaking of those who have taken the passages and tried to capitalize on them with their propogandist style preaching...


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 02:30 PM by JustG
Originally posted by OmegaLogos
Explanation: I would posit that regardless of worrying about whether it is the End/Begining/Middle of this/that or the other, try instead focusing on YOUR God/dess because thats what really counts! Also I would posit that just as one can not be sure of the timing or placement of the enemies attack, then one should remain vigilant until the "thief" exposes themselves!

Focusing on your God and not on armageddon/end times etc as based in scripture! [All scriptures are KJV and sourced from blueletterbible.org ]

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

****** ...


I'm inferring that this is either a neatly packed new age answer or you don't understand the context.

Earlier in the thread, I asked if we can know the times? I posted a good video that talks about the time lines and argued that even though the bible says you can't know the hour or the day, that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't discern the times. In fact we are told to do just exactly that.

You seem well versed enough in the bible so surely you know that Jesus advised us to watch. We are advised to be prepared. We are warned and we are given the time lines, so why blatantly say the bible says the opposite?

Anyway, perhaps I missed something earlier, but I didn't see anyone post about being afraid. Being aware of the times is scriptural...

Christian's must be prepared:

Mat24 "9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

Mat 25
10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

etc etc.

Its a nice cozy feeling to ignore prophesy and pretend it doesn't exist, but you are wrong, its not scriptural.

It appears more likely that you have thrown pork chops before pearls.


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 02:45 PM by JustG
open_eyeballs:

You make some good points, however at other times in history, you do not have the same circumstances you have today. There are very specific details and timelines involved that couldn't be referenced to past dominions.

Look at the statue in Daniel as an example. Gold head, silver torso, then bronze, legs of iron and feet of iron and clay. These are the former great dominions. The iron and clay toes are the 10 final rulers over which the anti christ will then reign.

You also have the harlot which will also play a great role and this is only beginning to come to fruition. You can't take one circumstance and say hey that seems to fit, it all has to go together.

I understand what you mean by people taking things out of context, but things are also taken out of context to deny God's truth.

Though, I partly agree with you about some who take scripture out of context and the rapture is a good example. Christians will not be raptured before tribulation. I believe that is wishful thinking based specifically on scripture, and that Christians need to read, pray and understand the word of God and not rely or organizations to do their thinking for them. Otherwise they will be ill prepared.

Finally, Jesus mention of 'this generation' I believe was in reference to the generation of the fig tree (Isreal), which I have referenced earlier.

I hope this helps. If you want further clarification, please be more specific.



[edit on 23-8-2009 by JustG]


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 03:11 PM by open_eyeballs
reply to post by JustG


I think the period you like to think of the end of the world will come is not the same period the authors of the Bible thought the end of the world will come...


As we see here:


False Prophecies About the Armageddon:

Jesus’ Predictions:

1) Jesus falsely prophesies DIRECTLY to the high priest (Caiphas) that he would live to see his second coming. Jesus uses the term “coming on the clouds of heaven”. This clearly negates the “coming” as the resurrection but as a return to the earth on CLOUDS, not his return in human form from the dead. Matthew 26:64 & Mark 14:62.

"But I tell you: From now on you will see 'the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming on the clouds of heaven.'" (Matthew 26:64 NAB)

Then Jesus answered, "I am; and 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.'" (Mark 14:62 NAB)
2) Jesus mistakenly tells his followers that he will return and establish his kingdom within their lifetime. Matthew 23:36 & 24:34

Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (Matthew 23:36 NAB)

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a trumpet blast, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. "Learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branch becomes tender and sprouts leaves, you know that summer is near. In the same way, when you see all these things, know that he is near, at the gates. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Matthew 24:29-35 NAB)

3) YET AGAIN, Jesus claims those standing RIGHT BEFORE HIM shall see the Armageddon. Matthew 16:28 “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Don’t let Christians lie to you and claim Jesus was referring to his modern day believers. The words “some standing HERE will not taste death” clearly refutes such nonsense. Obviously the people he was speaking to died, and curiously Jesus STILL isn’t here to claim his kingdom.

4) Jesus falsely prophesies that the end of the world will come within his listeners’ lifetimes.

Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Mark 13:30-31 NAB)
He also said to them, "Amen, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the kingdom of God has come in power." (Mark 9:1 NAB)

5) Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God.

"Truly I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27 NAB)

6) Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. (John 21:22)

7) Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, wars, stars, etc.) will occur within the lifetime of his listeners. He purposely defines their generation and NOT a future one. Considering that NONE of those signs took place during the resurrection and that he uses the term of “Heaven and earth shall pass away”, Clearly Jesus is prophesizing that nearly 2,000 years ago Armageddon SHOULD have occurred. Luke 21:25-33

"There will be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars, and on earth nations will be in dismay, perplexed by the roaring of the sea and the waves. People will die of fright in anticipation of what is coming upon the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these signs begin to happen, stand erect and raise your heads because your redemption is at hand." He taught them a lesson. "Consider the fig tree and all the other trees. When their buds burst open, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near; in the same way, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away. (Luke 21:25-33 NAB)

[Editor's note: Matthew 10:23 also has Jesus telling his disciples that the second coming will occur before the disciples finish preaching in Israel: "When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." (Matthew 10:23 NAB)]



John’s Predictions

8) John believes “the time is at hand,” and that the things that he writes about in Revelation will “shortly come to pass.” Revelations 1:1-3

9) John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come “quickly.” Revelations 22:7, 12 & 20

10) John thinks he is living in “the last times.” He “knows” this because he sees so many antichrists around. 1 John 2:18

11) John says that the antichrist was already present at the time 1 John was written. 1 John 4:3

12) John quotes Jesus (1900 years ago) as saying he will come “quickly.” Revelations 3:11, 22:7, 12 & 20



Paul’s Predictions

13) Paul thought that the end was near and that Jesus would return soon after he wrote these words. Philippians 4:5

14) Paul believes he is living in the “last days.” Hebrews 1:2

15) Paul believed that Jesus would come “in a little while, and will not tarry.” Hebrews 10:37

16) In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Paul stated: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: And the dead Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air: And so shall we ever be with the Lord.” Paul shared the delusion, taught by Jesus, in that he expected to be snatched up bodily into heaven with other saints then living, who would, thus, never taste death. The use of “we” clearly proves as much. It is difficult to deny that Paul was certain that the end of the world was coming in the lifetime of his contemporaries.



Other Prophecies About Armageddon:

17) James thought that Jesus would return soon. James 5:8

18) Peter wrongly believed that he was living in the “last times” and that “the end of all things is at hand.” 1 Peter 1:20 & 4:7



reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 03:13 PM by open_eyeballs
reply to post by JustG


The iron and clay toes are the 10 final rulers over which the anti christ will then reign.


Im sorry, I find the anti-Christ to not be a literal person.

Many Christians again like to overlook the real value of such passages, and instead focus on an out of context literal interpretaion..in my opinion...


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 03:23 PM by JustG
Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by JustG


The iron and clay toes are the 10 final rulers over which the anti christ will then reign.


Im sorry, I find the anti-Christ to not be a literal person.

Many Christians again like to overlook the real value of such passages, and instead focus on an out of context literal interpretaion..in my opinion...


Well you are entitled to that opinion, as we have been given choice. But, you must also acknowledge that interpretation is not biblical.

edit: What is your reference, other than personal belief or heresay?
Also, could you please reference how or where it becomes out of context?




[edit on 23-8-2009 by JustG]


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 03:28 PM by open_eyeballs
reply to post by JustG


But, you must also acknowledge that interpretation is not biblical.


How is that when I just posted dozens of passages and a more realistic approach to the "prophecies" of "armageddon"...

No reply to those passages?

I can wait if you are contemplating what you wish to say...but you replied to the other post...so I am just wondering if you are going to relpy to the passages I posted?


reply posted on 23-8-2009 @ 03:31 PM by JustG
Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by JustG


But, you must also acknowledge that interpretation is not biblical.


How is that when I just posted dozens of passages and a more realistic approach to the "prophecies" of "armageddon"...

No reply to those passages?

I can wait if you are contemplating what you wish to say...but you replied to the other post...so I am just wondering if you are going to relpy to the passages I posted?


I'm answering that now... I saw this one 1st.
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