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Guantanamo's 'more evil twin'?

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posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 05:39 AM
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Those imprisoned there have never been charged with a crime, nor do they have any meaningful way of challenging their detention.

The inmates allege abuse at the hands of their captors, ranging from sleep deprivation to brutal beatings. And no, it is not Guantanamo Bay.

The Bagram Theatre Internment Facility lies on a sprawling US military complex, 40km northeast of the Afghan capital Kabul. It holds almost three times as many prisoners as Guantanamo and, as its better-known Cuban counterpart prepares to close, the Bagram prison is about to double in size.

You could be forgiven for never having heard of the prison at Bagram. After all, Barack Obama, the US president, does not like to mention it, preferring to concentrate on his flagship policy of closing the Guantanamo Bay prison facility.

english.aljazeera.net...

Afghanis are very strict on revenge, specially the Pashtoons. My advice would be to never travel those ways, even Pakistan contains a huge population of Pashtoons. There is a code, and the code is "an eye for an eye".

An increase in Attacks against all foreigners shows the dejavu every invader sees in Afghanistan.

If I was to produce a formula for what the future holds, it would probably be something like this (America = Russia > Afghanistan). Where '>' stands for defeat. But that is my predictions, what do you predict, do you believe America will prevail and achieve all its objectives in Afghanistan. Something which has never been accomplished since god knows when.


[edit on 22-8-2009 by oozyism]




posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 06:11 AM
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You know, if it wasn't for the fact that my countrymen are over there being killed and disabled and having to kill and disable their fellow man, i'd say i actually admire the Afghanis and their fortitude.

I particularly agree with the 'code' of revenge. Something we in the West should focus on in regards to those around us who tend to make our and our families lives difficult or tainted.

Although i admire them, i cannot think why they are not very easily defeated.

I guess it's the mistake all invaders throughout Afghanistan's history make. One of underestimation of the peoples determination to be free unto themselves, and to make those who try to interfere pay, and pay heavily.

Personally, i would prefer all my country's soldiers to return home, the same with the rest of the forces there. They will not win...they've been there now for longer that the whole of the second world war went on for and still are no closer to any kind of permanent victory.

Our Sec of defense has recently said that our forces will probably be looking at around a 40 year commitment to Afghanistan! 40 YEARS!

The Soviets were there for 10 years, and left with their tails between their legs, when they realized they could not win.

But why not? What of the trillions spent on military technology each year?

What of thermal imaging, IR satellites, motion detection with drones that fly 24hrs, and so on.

Are we to really believe a rag tag 'insurgency' (how can they be insurgents, when we invaded them, and it's their homeland?, always wondered about that) can evade everything that is considered state of the art warfare wise, that swallows up such a huge annual budget?

How is this possible? I'd like to know..don't tell me hiding in caves, they have to move around for tactical reasons. They have to be resupplied. They have to eat and drink. They have to position themselves for an attack or counter attack...don't they?

The only people winning out of these wars (as usual) are the military industrial complex. Those and the cartel that want to build a Gas pipeline through Afghanistan...



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 09:10 AM
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The first time around I agreed with us being over there because I believed the propaganda that Osama Bin Laden was the bad guy we were after.

Well, I don't believe that he had anything to do with 911. There is no longer any reason for us to be there. If the Afghanis want to have a Taliban run country then that is their business; not ours.

Al Q'aida (sp?) wasn't anybody's problem until the U.S. made it so.

We've created monsters and done monstrous things, but if we got out of there they would quickly return to managing their own affairs as they see fit.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by wayno
 


It is great to see people avoiding the propaganda. I once also believed in the propaganda but after just alittle google research came to a completely different conclusion.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 08:49 PM
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Winning in Afghanistan really makes me wonder what exactly would we be winning. As it stands now all the US is doing is the same thing they tried in Iraq. More troops! Not a well thought out strategy.


Are we to really believe a rag tag 'insurgency' (how can they be insurgents, when we invaded them, and it's their homeland?, always wondered about that) can evade everything that is considered state of the art warfare wise, that swallows up such a huge annual budget?



Toys don't win wars. Ground troops must take and hold territory or you have gained nothing. You don't need high tech gear when you have a experienced warriors who know the terrain, are proficient with their weapons and are motivated to win.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 08:53 PM
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Originally posted by spikey
they've been there now for longer that the whole of the second world war went on for and still are no closer to any kind of permanent victory.


I've always wondered about the people that claim, "We can't win!!! We've been there longer than the Second World War!!"

You're kidding me, right? Did I miss the memo where it said that wars must not last any longer than WW2?

Just curious.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by spikey
they've been there now for longer that the whole of the second world war went on for and still are no closer to any kind of permanent victory.


I've always wondered about the people that claim, "We can't win!!! We've been there longer than the Second World War!!"

You're kidding me, right? Did I miss the memo where it said that wars must not last any longer than WW2?

Just curious.

Well if there is no cause behind the war then why stay longer than WW2. The Afghans don't want you, the Pakis don't want you, the Usbeks don't want you, the Tajiks don't want you, the Persians don't want you, the Chinese don't want you, just **** off then. ZZZ

The cause seems to be 9/11 and amazingly no evidence have been provided to link Osama with the attacks. The Taliban even asked America to show some evidence for such a huge accusation then we will hand in Osama, stating that Osama was under the Taliban protection and couldn't do anything without Taliban's authority. So if there is no cause then $$$$off cause you are risking not just Afghani lives but also wasting money. Afghanistan is still the poorest nation in the world after 8 years of invasion, what a cause.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 10:03 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
The cause seems to be 9/11 and amazingly no evidence have been provided to link Osama with the attacks. The Taliban even asked America to show some evidence for such a huge accusation then we will hand in Osama, stating that Osama was under the Taliban protection and couldn't do anything without Taliban's authority. So if there is no cause then $$$$off cause you are risking not just Afghani lives but also wasting money. Afghanistan is still the poorest nation in the world after 8 years of invasion, what a cause.


Well, that's believable if you go for the "false flag/CIA ninjas blew up the WTC".

And are you under the impression that Afghanistan was doing well under Taliban rule?



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 10:10 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65


Well, that's believable if you go for the "false flag/CIA ninjas blew up the WTC".

And are you under the impression that Afghanistan was doing well under Taliban rule?

Yes they were, there was no corruption, no crime, drug smuggling was reduced heavily, people were safe, the economy was shaping up and all this in two years with the world's most inexperienced ruler Mullah Omar.

America the world's most experienced ruller and with their highly advanced technology haven't brought anything but corruption, crime, drug addicts everywhere, rape, warlordism and all of this after 8 years of rule. Not to mention heroin exports has increased compare to Taliban era. Not to mention Taliban was isolated by the west and they were fighting the warlord Massoud.

By the way it seems you are not ready to discuss any issues, you just like to ridicule ideas without presenting your own. Why is that, please tell us all



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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Star, and flag to the OP for teaching a couple things. I didn't know about the prison in afghanistan, or the phastoons(sp).

I predict that US Americans will suffer greatly, and soon due to not standing up to the NWO; which is in control of the country.

People need to stand up, and stop playing the Elites games



posted on Aug, 23 2009 @ 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
Yes they were, there was no corruption, no crime, drug smuggling was reduced heavily, people were safe, the economy was shaping up and all this in two years with the world's most inexperienced ruler Mullah Omar.


You're joking, right? Things were great under Taliban rule??

Their treatment of women was firmly entrenched in the 4th Century. They couldn't work, had to wear the burka, closed down schools for girls (and boys, too, since their instructors were women), banned from taking a cab without having a male relative with them, and then people had to blacken their windows because women couldn't be seen from the street. They took Sharia law and somehow made it even more restrictive.

Music and movies were banned, education, employment and sports for women were forbidden, no kite flying, no clapping during events and guys couldn't trim their beards. They destroyed anything related to art and culture and either killed the animals in the zoo or just let them starve to death.

On 8 Aug 98, the went into Mazar-i-Sharif and whipped a little ethnic cleansing on them. Drove around and wasted about 8000 people and left them to rot in the sun.

Yeah, things were great under Omar, that's for sure.



posted on Aug, 23 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by jerico65
 



Yes they were, there was no corruption, no crime, drug smuggling was reduced heavily, people were safe, the economy was shaping up and all this in two years with the world's most inexperienced ruler Mullah Omar.

America the world's most experienced ruller and with their highly advanced technology haven't brought anything but corruption, crime, drug addicts everywhere, rape, warlordism and all of this after 8 years of rule. Not to mention heroin exports has increased compare to Taliban era. Not to mention Taliban was isolated by the west and they were fighting the warlord Massoud.

By the way it seems you are not ready to discuss any issues, you just like to ridicule ideas without presenting your own. Why is that, please tell us all

That was my full reply, you only seem to disagree with the first paragraph


Did you live in Afghanistan? How do you know these as facts? I lived there, these cases did exist but that was similar to police brutality in America where the police implement their personal views in the streets, hence racist cops, hence rapist cops etc. But it is OK, propaganda gets to everyone, the huge force of Western media can make any one look like a monster, even you.

Some Taliban who were from the south, who were in very little numbers brought their own cultural views. You should read about the Pashtoon culture. You don't seem to know much about Afghanistan at all. I lived in Afghanistan at the time of Taliban.



posted on Aug, 23 2009 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by oozyism
That was my full reply, you only seem to disagree with the first paragraph


Because I blew off the rest as a typical "America is the most corrupt country on the planet" rant.


Originally posted by oozyism
Did you live in Afghanistan? How do you know these as facts? I lived there, these cases did exist but that was similar to police brutality in America where the police implement their personal views in the streets, hence racist cops, hence rapist cops etc. But it is OK, propaganda gets to everyone, the huge force of Western media can make any one look like a monster, even you.


Hmmm....I guess all the aid workers from the UN and other NGOs must have been lying, huh? Never any ethnic cleansing going on there. Women are treated like human beings and given the right to a decent education and employment.

What a joke. You're comparing ethnic cleansing to police brutality in the US. The Taliban killed 8000+ people, but according to you, it's all just propaganda.

Yeah, that's it. It must have been stage pictures I've seen. The Taliban hasn't done anything like that, like have their BS "religious police" beating women in the streets. The photos of the bodies in the streets were just fake.


Originally posted by oozyism
Some Taliban who were from the south, who were in very little numbers brought their own cultural views. You should read about the Pashtoon culture. You don't seem to know much about Afghanistan at all. I lived in Afghanistan at the time of Taliban.


Whatever.



posted on Aug, 23 2009 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65


Because I blew off the rest as a typical "America is the most corrupt country on the planet" rant.

There was nothing in there which was a rant, let me show it to you



There are multiple causes of the growth and development of a drug addiction population in a war zone. The break down in security and the easier availability of drugs is one major factor. The pain that comes from living in an occupied country – psychological and emotional pain, plus the lack of health care, food and even adequate warmth in winter, also contribute greatly to a drug addiction problem.

And it is often a problem for an entire family, even the children.

Even children are addicted to heroin, this didn't exist under Taliban. Ofcurse you are going to deny it, let's continue:


At the bottom of the transparency table, along with Somalia and Iraq, are Burma, Haiti, Afghanistan and Sudan.


Afghanistan is one of the most corrupt nations on earth, everywhere you go you have to pay off the cops, if you don't get ready for a good old beating. Yeah women get beaten is well, they even get raped but ofcurse you deny it. Blame the Taliban



Life for women in Afghanistan is now WORSE than under the Taliban.

www.youtube.com...
Watch the video, ofcurse blame the Taliban. The Taliban brought security, stability and law which Afghans believed in. America brought the opposite. Afghans don't want a Western law, why do you think they are still fighting. See if you were smart you would see that after 8 years of occupation Afghans are still fighting. Do you know why? Taliban are Afghans, they are not fire breathing terrorists from you fantasy world. This is reality we are talking about here.


Afghanistan's President, Hamid Karzai, has signed a law which "legalises" rape, women's groups and the United Nations warn. Critics claim the president helped rush the bill through parliament in a bid to appease Islamic fundamentalists ahead of elections in August.

Rape is increasing dramatically, ofcurse blame the Taliban. There was no rape under Taliban was there. Provide me some External Sources which says other wise. You seem to concern yourself so much on Woman's right under Taliban that you have forgotten the worst atrocities committed today under the American rule against women.


“They raped me for three days and nights. I felt like I was going crazy," she said. "They forced me to drink alcohol. I couldn’t get up. They had guns, knives. They were so cruel and brutal. I screamed and cried, but they didn’t care.”

She was a teenage girl, yes woman's right. Keep blabbering about woman's right. Please do provide some external sources to back up your wild theories regarding Taliban.

And regarding the 8000 deaths, bring me some external links so we can discuss it.



posted on Aug, 23 2009 @ 10:14 PM
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Taliban massacre of Hazaras

www.hrw.org...


Human rights practices in A-stan:

www.state.gov...


"The Taliban in their own words" (this is also in "Taliban"):

gemsofislamism.tripod.com...

And read this book if you get a chance. It was very good. Most of what I posted I read here:

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251083352&sr=1-1

In the beginning, it looked like the Taliban were doing good, but that was before they decided things were better in 1100 AD.

Afghans wanting a Western law or not, I seriously doubt they are pining away for the good ol' days of the Taliban. Unless, of course, you were getting something from them.

So, keep up with the "The Taliban are the good guys". Most people in the world know the truth.



posted on Sep, 7 2009 @ 05:53 AM
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reply to post by jerico65
 


Taliban massacre of Hazaras

The Taleban have denied the killings, calling the allegations enemy propaganda. They say it is impossible they could have carried out an action so contrary to Islamic law.

www.rawa.org...

And yes it was enemy propaganda, how else are you going to convince the world to bomb one of the poorest nation on earth. It is already proven that USA was planning to invade Afghanistan prior to 9/11. And even after 9/11 the Taliban asked for evidence connecting Osama with 9/11 but America refused to do so:

On 21 September 2001, the Taliban responded that if the United States could bring evidence that bin Laden was guilty, they would hand him over, stating there was no evidence in their possession linking him to the 11 September attacks.

en.wikipedia.org...-led_invasion_and_displacement_of_the_Taliban


Afghanistan
Country Reports on Human Rights

More propaganda from Washington, this was the pretext for war. This is like you telling me to believe the Iraq war pretext. Not believable. Here is my counter:

"During the Taliban time, you could walk the streets safely day and night. Now we have to sleep with guns for pillows because we can be robbed at any time," said Abdul Haddi, 35, a car dealer. "Now we have the freedom to listen to music, and nobody bothers us about wearing beards, but music does not put food on the table. We prefer extremism to instability."

www.ilaam.net...

These are Afghan testimonies, I don't appreciate a link which directs me to the pentagon which tries to justify the war and the deaths of thousands of Afghans in consequence.

Same Source
Same source, pentagon justifying the deaths of thousands of Afghans.
And I showed you statistics that woman's right hasn't improved in Afghanistan, only 4% of Afghan girls get some sort of education if at all:

director of women’s rights for the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, 60% of marriages are forced, and while 40% of children in the first year of school are girls, by secondary school this drops to only 11%. By the age of 15, less than 4% are girls.



During the Taliban era, the school received special permission to teach girls after agreeing to follow strict Islamic rules, with no men allowed on the premises, no music or parties and special curtained buses bringing veiled students to class. Now, the girls said, the atmosphere inside the school is more relaxed, but the conditions outside are far more frightening.

"We are so confused and worried. There are gunmen everywhere, and there is no stability," said Khatira, 18, a nursing student. "I hate guns, and I only want to study. I was born in a time of fighting, and I never saw any stable conditions except with the Taliban. In the time of extremism, I could study safely. Now I can't."

Same Source

See you bringing me pentagon propaganda, I can bring you the opposite propaganda, testimonies of Afghans not Americans.


The book is written by a Pakistani who is supposedly an expert on Taliban? Taliban in their own words is also taken from that book written by Ahmad, infact every propaganda which exists against Taliban is taken from that book.

Even if you go to Wikipedia everything regarding Taliban comes from his book, odd?



sold 1.5 million copies since the September 11, 2001 attacks. The book was used extensively by American analysts and British politicians including Tony Blair and Alastair Campbell in the wake of the attacks.

en.wikipedia.org...:_Militant_Islam,_Oil_and_Fundamentalism_in_Central_Asia

Everyone knows the war was orchestrated, and everyone should know that one book written by a Pakistani, to prove every wrong doing Taliban has ever committed. made popular by Britain and America, the countries which first started attacking Afghanistan. You don't find it odd?

What was the first book he published? Do you know? Is he a credible guy?



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