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Europe Being Recruited Into The Healthcare War Effort?

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posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 12:24 PM
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I recieved an interesting E-Mail from Avaaz detailing the ongoing healthcare reform struggle. Living in Europe, I have watched the debate with interest -- but from afar. So what's interesting about it you ask?

This:



We need a huge popular outcry from Europe to show the truth -- demonstrating how much we value our public healthcare system even despite its drawbacks. Sign on to the message to America and forward this email -- if enough of us sign, we'll cause a stir in US media and help change the debate:


Now the "truth" is pushed forward on a separate quick reference guide.




A quick guide to the truth

Protesters are railing against a fantasy proposal that bears no resemblance to the actual legislation moving through Congress. Below is a quick guide to some of the most egregious whoppers that are making the rounds.

Myth: The bill outlaws private insurance—it says so right on page 16.
Truth: What the bill really says is that after a date, certain private plans that engage in egregious practices – such as imposing pre-existing condition exclusions or charging people more based on gender or health status – cannot continue to be sold to new enrollees. Private plans that meet the new rules not only can be sold, but will continue to be the main way people get coverage (see 'government takeover' myth below).

Myth: The bill promotes euthanasia.
Truth: The provision pays primary care doctors to take time to discuss patient wishes around end-of-life treatment. It does not require anyone to obtain such counseling, let alone require beneficiaries to make any particular decision about end-of-life treatment.

Myth: The plan amounts to a government takeover of health care.
Truth: The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates for about 10 million enrollees in the public plan as designed by the House – that’s compared to over 160 million in private coverage. If the changes to the public plan adopted by the Energy and Commerce committee prevail, that number could be lower still.

Myth: Comparative Effectiveness Research equals rationing.
Truth: Provisions in the health reform proposals to promote research that will compare how well different treatments work will improve quality of care by giving doctors and patients the best available information on which to base their decisions.

Myth: The legislation will provide subsidized coverage for illegal immigrants.
Truth: Regardless of how you feel about it (and we see it as a weakness of the current proposals), coverage for illegal immigrants is explicitly excluded in all of the reform bills.


source:Reference

This push for public outcry baffles me somewhat. Does European opinion really hold the umph that could swing public debate? Recent history would seem to dictate that it wouldn't (Iraq: Europe held huge anti-war rallies, that swung a negligible amount of public opinion but did not dent the resolve of the administration). Am I right in feeling this is a little naive?




posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 12:57 PM
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Here is one of your supposed myths confirmed:

Myth: The legislation will provide subsidized coverage for illegal immigrants.
Truth: Regardless of how you feel about it (and we see it as a weakness of the current proposals), coverage for illegal immigrants is explicitly excluded in all of the reform bills.

The Truth:

20 (d) SPECIAL DUTIES RELATED TO MEDICAID AND
21 CHIP.—
22 (1) COVERAGE FOR CERTAIN NEWBORNS.—
23 (A) IN GENERAL.—In the case of a child
24 born in the United States who at the time of
25 birth is not otherwise covered under acceptable
1 coverage, for the period of time beginning on
2 the date of birth and ending on the date the
3 child otherwise is covered under acceptable cov4
erage (or, if earlier, the end of the month in
5 which the 60-day period, beginning on the date
6 of birth, ends), the child shall be deemed—
7 (i) to be a non-traditional Medicaid el8
igible individual (as defined in subsection
9 (e)(5)) for purposes of this division and
10 Medicaid; and
11 (ii) to have elected to enroll in Med12
icaid through the application of paragraph
13 (3).
14 (B) EXTENDED TREATMENT AS TRADI15
TIONAL MEDICAID ELIGIBLE INDIVIDUAL.—In
16 the case of a child described in subparagraph
17 (A) who at the end of the period referred to in
18 such subparagraph is not otherwise covered
19 under acceptable coverage, the child shall be
20 deemed (until such time as the child obtains
21 such coverage or the State otherwise makes a
22 determination of the child’s eligibility for med23
ical assistance under its Medicaid plan pursuant
24 to section 1943(c)(1) of the Social Security
25 Act) to be a traditional Medicaid eligible indi-
VerDate Nov 24 2008 12:51 Jul 14, 2009 Jkt 000000 PO 00000 Frm 00101 Fmt 6652 Sfmt 6201 C:\TEMP\AAHCA0~1.XML HOLCPC
July 14, 2009 (12:51 p.m.)
F:\P11\NHI\TRICOMM\AAHCA09_001.XML
f:\VHLC\071409\071409.140.xml (444390|2)
102
1 vidual described in section 1902(l)(1)(B) of
2 such Act.
3 (2) CHIP TRANSITION.—A child who, as of the
4 day before the first day of Y1, is eligible for child
5 health assistance under title XXI of the Social Secu6
rity Act (including a child receiving coverage under
7 an arrangement described in section 2101(a)(2) of
8 such Act) is deemed as of such first day to be an
9 Exchange-eligible individual unless the individual is
10 a traditional Medicaid eligible individual as of such
11 day.


This will open the floodgates for all expectant mothers from Mexico to flood the hospitals when they are about to give birth. Forget the fact that that in itself is illegal, the massive influx will crush our so called fix for a broken health care system.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 01:07 PM
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Whether Europe will be able to sway American public opinion is not the issue. The real problem is why Europe thinks it has any right to help push legislation down America's throat; this is not a matter like war, where I can understand protests on the part of Europeans urging their respective governments not to get involved.

It would be one thing to try to rationally set the record straight and prove why the European system is superior. This appears to be another tactic entirely. The American public is opposed to this plan not only (as I believe) on principle, but also with respect to the way that such half-hearted, ineffectual measures are being touted as some kind of government-provided panacea that must be passed, immediately, without any debate or study.

Honestly, would any European support a Universal Health Plan (if you did not already have one in place) today if those voting on it had no idea what the plan actually contained because they hadn't bothered to read it, and had proven horribly inept at managing other "social welfare" programs in the past (Social Security, for example)?



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by Ragnar Danneskjold
 


Star for you!!!!!! We are not telling Europeans what kind of health care to use. This is a strictly American Issue. How big of a riot would it cause in Europe if the American Congress tried to impose and/or influence health care amendments to your NHS? ((?) Not sure if that is proper name for it.)



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by ohioriver
 


These are not my myths, actually I fully agree with both of you. I was actually pointing that out to give the Avaaz email some context.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by Oscitate
reply to post by ohioriver
 


These are not my myths, actually I fully agree with both of you. I was actually pointing that out to give the Avaaz email some context.


Glad to hear there is one more thinker in our midst. I get so tired of hearing these talking points, which are clearly twisted to make the health care bill seem benign and make the people who question it appear stupid. Yes, they will cover illegals, Yes there are adjustment centers only they are not called adjustment centers. There will be Obamanites who sit around a far away desk and decide what is covered, what codes are assigned to each diagnosis(benign), and how much will be paid for each procedure. And if you don't think that last one is a doozy, think again. If the doctor knows he will not get paid but a percentage for any procedure, make no mistake he will not even suggest it even if it will correct any health problems. Our quality of care will be seriously diminished by bureaucrats deciding we should take a pill instead of having the surgery to repair certain conditions.Even their health co-op's are open to corruption. The way I understood it,the company wanting to offer insurance in a co-op has to gain approval from the so called health commissioner. Said insurance company goes to him and offers bribe, gift etc. There is nothing , no regulation or oversight on so called health commissioner to make sure he is not offering more areas, customers, or special considerations to said insurance company. For those who don't understand what a health co-op would be like think of electric co-ops. They are mostly in rural areas and have just one electric company for each specific area. If you don't like your electric company you are outta luck and stuck with them cause no other electric company will service that area. Same with a health co-op or exchange, whatever special word you would like to call them.LOL



*edited to be pc
*

[edit on 21-8-2009 by ohioriver]



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by ohioriver

Originally posted by Oscitate
reply to post by ohioriver
 


These are not my myths, actually I fully agree with both of you. I was actually pointing that out to give the Avaaz email some context.


Yes there are death panels only they are not called death panels. There will be Obamanites who sit around a far away desk and decide what is covered, what codes are assigned to each diagnosis(benign)



OH there are DEATH PANELS?



OP this is what is going on, this follow here is LYING, he does not have the fortitude to argue things on the merits of reality. Instead he knows LYING will fool a great deal of people and also cease any RATIONAL debate...



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by mental modulator
 


O My I am so sorry
Should I think up a more politically correct name for them so I don't offend your sensibilities.? From here on out I will just mentioned the afore mentioned "panels" as adjustment centers. There for your protection and safety.
We must be good slaves (whoops) I mean citizens and not question the intent behind anything. I noticed you never said anything about the co-ops. Any thoughts? Have you found any specific regulation in the many health care bills that will provide oversight for the" health commissioner".?



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by mental modulator
 


I am open to hear what you think. Really. How would you describe a panel that has the power to decide which procedures are paid under which plan?



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 10:04 PM
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America might be supporting foreign health care programs for all we know. The federal reserve's Bernake admitted to loaning money to a foreign country (New Zealand). This might explain their push for universal health care in America. After all it's basically taking a ponzi scheme away from the private sector and giving it to the public sector. Considering we might be running out of money this would make sense in order for government to bring in more money thus supporting a foreign governments health care system. You never know these days where the money is going because it's all secret with the federal reserve.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 10:47 PM
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Originally posted by ohioriver
reply to post by mental modulator
 


I am open to hear what you think. Really. How would you describe a panel that has the power to decide which procedures are paid under which plan?


Sir a great deal of claims are denied in exactly this same way TODAY, under private insurance. EVERYDAY people are dropped from coverage due to screwing up on a PAST application. Or the insurance company will just TELL you you are not eligible for said procedure or medication.

Provided you are informed enough to know better, you will put you in the peer review process which could take months in some cases . Very nice when you have little time to fight the condition you are afflicted with...

FOR example: if you screwed up on a past application/ doctor questioner on a policy you do not have any longer you are subject to have your current INSURANCE DROPPED by you provider TODAY.

So you may have paid your premiums faithfully for ten years on this policy,
but be conveniently dropped at the discretion of the provider.

Maybe you forgot to mention you had chicken pox? or maybe you failed to circle yes for the question:
DO YOU SUFFER FROM FREQUENT HEADACHES?

"Death Panels" is a FALLACY to muddy debate - take your focus off of the issue that might impact you.

In fact it refers to advanced directive and its application...

Do you want to be a vegetable on a feeding tube if you are in an accident?
Things like that...

Do you really think a society that takes 5-15 years to kill a MURDERER on DEATH ROW
would purposefully let an innocent die for COST??? ASK YOURSELF THAT?

A death row inmate costs, between $70,000 and $100,000 a year to hold -

Argue the idea on cost or whatever merit, but don't base your opposition on a lie, surely you can find a better argument.

On the other hand-

IS there anything that you would like improved about your healthcare???
Have you even had the mind to think about it?

I just don't get it frankly, now you have opportunity to shape the debate
in a meaningful way and you are focused on a fake notion intended to keep
you thinking about the fake notion, not yourself or family.

You're selling your self short



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by ohioriver
reply to post by mental modulator
 


not question the intent behind anything


Adjustment centers,,, I mean do you believe anything you hear?

What you said above - ASK YOURSELF THAT SAME NOTION.

The intent of "DEATH PANELS", the FAKE IDEA created by a HEALTHCARE EXECUTIVE
is to keep things the same.

WHY?

because her company (ex now for creating the lie) stands to lose money if
action is taken.

THE INTENT is to keep YOU talking about fake death panels...

The INTENT in that - is derail the entire public dialogue about healthcare because you are frightened or pretending to be.

The INTENT of that - is so the industry keeps its hold on the industry and your MONEY.

washingtonindependent.com...

IS it not clear? The lady WORKS in the INDUSTRY that stands to LOSE profit.

IF SHE CONVINCES 10 million people that their grannies will be killed and they turn the debate to her FAKE idea does that not help the future of her businesses profit?

JESUS, you know liberals, we will save endangered roaches from extermination -
put two and two together...



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by mental modulator

Originally posted by ohioriver
reply to post by mental modulator
 


I am open to hear what you think. Really. How would you describe a panel that has the power to decide which procedures are paid under which plan?


Sir a great deal of claims are denied in exactly this same way TODAY, under private insurance. EVERYDAY people are dropped from coverage due to screwing up on a PAST application. Or the insurance company will just TELL you you are not eligible for said procedure or medication.

Provided you are informed enough to know better, you will put you in the peer review process which could take months in some cases . Very nice when you have little time to fight the condition you are afflicted with...

FOR example: if you screwed up on a past application/ doctor questioner on a policy you do not have any longer you are subject to have your current INSURANCE DROPPED by you provider TODAY.

So you may have paid your premiums faithfully for ten years on this policy,
but be conveniently dropped at the discretion of the provider.

Maybe you forgot to mention you had chicken pox? or maybe you failed to circle yes for the question:
DO YOU SUFFER FROM FREQUENT HEADACHES?

"Death Panels" is a FALLACY to muddy debate - take your focus off of the issue that might impact you.

In fact it refers to advanced directive and its application...

Do you want to be a vegetable on a feeding tube if you are in an accident?
Things like that...

Do you really think a society that takes 5-15 years to kill a MURDERER on DEATH ROW
would purposefully let an innocent die for COST??? ASK YOURSELF THAT?

A death row inmate costs, between $70,000 and $100,000 a year to hold -

Argue the idea on cost or whatever merit, but don't base your opposition on a lie, surely you can find a better argument.

On the other hand-

IS there anything that you would like improved about your healthcare???
Have you even had the mind to think about it?

I just don't get it frankly, now you have opportunity to shape the debate
in a meaningful way and you are focused on a fake notion intended to keep
you thinking about the fake notion, not yourself or family.

You're selling your self short






So basically you are saying we should just place old system in new system with the only benefit being pre- existing conditions won't exist. As for the adjustment centers, I am not basing that on end of life care, which will be pushed hard by drs to get extra money. I am basing it on the same thing current insurance providers do. And that is to decide which kind of treatment you can receive and how much they will reimburse doctors for said treatment. If it will cost the doctors more money to provide treatment than insurance will cover they just will not even offer it, not even to save someone who is only 65. The difference being that most of us would take the insurance company to court to get payment. Do you honestly believe if someone needs a surgery that will dramatically improve their quality of life and it is not on a government approved list of procedures that they would be able to take on the government? The gov would hold it up for years and said person would be dead before the gov could or would decide anything. Again I ask what is your take on the health co-op/exchanges?



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by mental modulator
 


Your argument is false.


Do you really think a society that takes 5-15 years to kill a MURDERER on DEATH ROW
would purposefully let an innocent die for COST??? ASK YOURSELF THAT?

A death row inmate costs, between $70,000 and $100,000 a year to hold -

Argue the idea on cost or whatever merit, but don't base your opposition on a lie, surely you can find a better argument.



Corporations such as Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the Geo Group (formerly Wakenhut), Avalon Correctional Services, Cornell Companies and Industry Property Management. CCA has a $2 billion market cap, followed by the Geo Group with a $922 million market cap. The money is made by contracting out the inmates' labor to Fortune 500 companies and, in some cases, they compete for public works contracts. CCA and the others are making money, and their stock trades on the stock exchange. Telecommunications industries pay prisons to put pay phones in prisons. Pay phones in prisons make $15,000 a day. Transportation companies and all sorts of cottage industries develop around the prison industry. UNICOR, or Federal Prison Industries, created by Congress, was one of the first prison industries established to exploit inmate labor. States also pay a per diem per inmate to private prison corporations.
www.bvonmoney.com...

Ever wonder why we have the largest prison population of any country?It's the money.
The government does not have anyone's best interest in mind. It's all about the money.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by cloakndagger
America might be supporting foreign health care programs for all we know. The federal reserve's Bernake admitted to loaning money to a foreign country (New Zealand). This might explain their push for universal health care in America. After all it's basically taking a ponzi scheme away from the private sector and giving it to the public sector. Considering we might be running out of money this would make sense in order for government to bring in more money thus supporting a foreign governments health care system. You never know these days where the money is going because it's all secret with the federal reserve.



I have often wondered about that. Has anyone ever tried to add up just how much money is coming in from each state in federal taxes from all 50 states?



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by ohioriver

Originally posted by mental modulator

Originally posted by ohioriver
reply to post by mental modulator
 


I am open to hear what you think. Really. How would you describe a panel that has the power to decide which procedures are paid under which plan?




So basically you are saying we should just place old system in new system with the only benefit being pre- existing conditions won't exist. As for the adjustment centers, I am not basing that on end of life care, which will be pushed hard by drs to get extra money. I am basing it on the same thing current insurance providers do. And that is to decide which kind of treatment you can receive and how much they will reimburse doctors for said treatment. If it will cost the doctors more money to provide treatment than insurance will cover they just will not even offer it, not even to save someone who is only 65. The difference being that most of us would take the insurance company to court to get payment. Do you honestly believe if someone needs a surgery that will dramatically improve their quality of life and it is not on a government approved list of procedures that they would be able to take on the government? The gov would hold it up for years and said person would be dead before the gov could or would decide anything. Again I ask what is your take on the health co-op/exchanges?


(Side note, are we debating the public option or what?)

NO, I am saying JOIN the debate in a meaningful way as you just did...

I am against burocratic red tape be it private or federal determination. In the few plans I have skinned thru I see the BOARD OF TRUSTEES as the intital recourse against
denied claims after being denied by your primary care physician... This would cut out
the insurance company, which is the first step after a denial currently. This Board
which currently exists in private system is the ultimate final step before another round of legal sparring... A BOARD is and would remain a PEER ELECTED professional civilian entity.

Anyhow I have just started in medical billing, the whole thing is f'ed up, I see the "rationing" from KAISER to MEDICADE... They screw the doctor, who in turn might screw the patient,,, mine does not.

Ultimately I am against detouring the discussion, I am not convinced a public option
or single payer system would work at this point in time. But I would rather talk about these concerns in this fashion

I am for cooperative exchanges, I am a member of a cooperative credit union and it has served me well thus far.



posted on Aug, 22 2009 @ 12:50 AM
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Originally posted by ohioriver
reply to post by mental modulator
 


Your argument is false.


Do you really think a society that takes 5-15 years to kill a MURDERER on DEATH ROW
would purposefully let an innocent die for COST??? ASK YOURSELF THAT?

A death row inmate costs, between $70,000 and $100,000 a year to hold -

Argue the idea on cost or whatever merit, but don't base your opposition on a lie, surely you can find a better argument.



Corporations such as Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), the Geo Group (formerly Wakenhut), Avalon Correctional Services, Cornell Companies and Industry Property Management. CCA has a $2 billion market cap, followed by the Geo Group with a $922 million market cap. The money is made by contracting out the inmates' labor to Fortune 500 companies and, in some cases, they compete for public works contracts. CCA and the others are making money, and their stock trades on the stock exchange. Telecommunications industries pay prisons to put pay phones in prisons. Pay phones in prisons make $15,000 a day. Transportation companies and all sorts of cottage industries develop around the prison industry. UNICOR, or Federal Prison Industries, created by Congress, was one of the first prison industries established to exploit inmate labor. States also pay a per diem per inmate to private prison corporations.
www.bvonmoney.com...

Ever wonder why we have the largest prison population of any country?It's the money.
The government does not have anyone's best interest in mind. It's all about the money.


SO by this example wouldn't people receive GREAT CARE, MORE $$$$$$ ???

YOU can't make money off a dead granny...

Your initial argument was the opposite (if we are talking about a public option)

- In order to save money care would be restricted -

But now you are saying that the opposite approach is applied to inmates?



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