You got a problem with God?

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by randyvs

 

Our intelligence seems more like one of those occasional freakish attributes that nature tries out and scraps when it all goes horribly wrong.

[edit on 20-8-2009 by Welfhard]

Sounds like you are saying nature is testing us to observe the out come. What really is the "nature" you talk of? and where is its intelligence located?

With Respect,
Ghost

I don't need for there to be a God.
I need to be a good person.
I need to believe in miracles.
I need to believe in love, kindness,integrity and good intentions.
But I don't need for there to be a God.

I look back at my previous post in this thread with regret. My response, however authentic at the time, was childish and bitter.


There have been countless times that I have cursed the creator of this dump we call an Earth and everything that ensues in this vulgar, man made monstrosity of a world we have created for ourselves.

That being said, I have realized that blind anger and rage at an invisible, incomprehensible entity seems pointless and really gets me nowhere in life.

My intention is to make the best of this world in the time that I have, and although life thus far has had it's overwhelming share of disappointments and heartache, I take solace in the fact that:

A.) If there is a divine being and a divine purpose to this life, it is likely beyond my range of understanding, hence the things that take place on this plane of existence are well founded and for a reason. In other words, if God is real, then he/it is likely far wiser than I am, and as such I can only take what is given and roll with the punches.

or

B.) There is no God, no method to the madness, no rhyme or reason to existence, and God is in fact an imaginary fictitious creation born from the minds of simplistic men who were searching for answers. In this case, being that there is no God at all, this would mean that things happen for no purpose and no reason at all, and to blindly rage against something which does not exist is next to insanity and surely unhealthy.



I offer these words. Live by your own standards, live a life of good and usefulness, and in the end one cannot say that you have lived a pointless life, as many will have found happiness by the effects of your actions. Strive to be a decent human being and the rest will take care of itself, God or no God

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

Sounds like you are saying nature is testing us to observe the out come. What really is the "nature" you talk of? and where is its intelligence located?

With Respect,
Ghost

Don't be fooled by anthropomorphism. Nature isn't a scientist, the trial and error effect in evolution is when organisms find themselves in new niches and certain traits (like advanced intelligence) are pressured to develop. But sometimes these new developments work too well and it negatively affects the surrounding ecology which in turn feeds back to the original organism. For instance, a hunter could become to good and too fast at hunting for it's prey to adapt to the sudden change and the prey gets wiped out in turn starving the hunter.

If nature was itself intelligent, then I don't think it would need to experiment.

I also do not think that it would need to wipe the slate clean of it's creation with 99% extinction events. Surely life cannot get out of hand for the creator.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by randyvs


In the same light, what's your beef against the possibility of no creator? Why do you latch on so hard to the idea of a creator as if your death (read: afterlife) depends on it?

Historically, religion is shown to evolve from a simplistically belief structure along with simplistic societies up to more complex societies with more complex belief structures. That being the case, monotheism itself is considerably the infant of religious thought. When first conceived upon, it was like the Scientology of today's modern age. Since then it has gained popularity and strength, not by truth mind you, but by bloody wars in the beginning and invasive conversion tactics and also by adopting pagan beliefs as their own to garner further conversions.

In today's modern monotheistic belief structure has taken a more political role than one of commune with god role. Now it's more politics than religious. So again we have an evolution of religious dogma. Christians have instigated possibly the worlds most horrific acts of violence and ignorance this planet has ever seen in it's entire history. From bloody wars in god's name, to the entire wiping out of civilizations, to the persecution and oppression of women for hundreds of years, to the book burnings of knowledge now completely lost to us, etc. etc. etc.

The monotheistic religion is not one of good intentions, it never has been. It has always been contradictory to it's own religious doctrine. You ask what are beef is, well, what is your religions problem? Oh. we're tolerant and blah blah blah, but we'll burn you! Oooooh yes we will! We love's us a good burning!

[EDIT]

Yikes, forgot to add that there is also no proof of the monotheistic god, which hinders any serious belief in it's possibility of existing as depicted by the monotheistic faiths.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by sirnex]

[edit on 29-9-2009 by sirnex]

I would have to say the inefficient way we take in and expel nutrients/waste. Exceptionally inelegant.

reply to post by Welfhard


welfhard !!
here you are....... well ,truly, by

The GRACE of GOD .

its like this . we all got first prize . the earth . with myriad LIFE

don't blame God because we spent the prize.
it's like they say.... You can't please everybody , all the time ...

"I still loveyousall" !! .> "GOD"

reply to post by radarloveguy


Why would I believe that? Reality indicates that life made us slowly. Why should I assume...

1) That there is a god.

2) That it cares about life.

3) That we are it's *special* creation? What happened to humility?

From what we know about life, it is very likely that the universe is awash with it. The Earth-like planets in this galaxy alone would be innumerable. Hell there may even be life elsewhere in this very solar system (in Europa, say).



The god idea just doesn't do reality justice, regardless of the religion.

"I still loveyousall" !! .> "GOD"

How would you know?

[edit on 29-9-2009 by Welfhard]

Welfhard, salutations !
1. have a look around and what do you see?
the universe ? well , that's no accident .
it is plainly miraculous
something SO grand , IS special to GOD>[the ONE who made it]

2. Also fairly obvious is the fact that the "Supreme Creator"
does care for life . life wouldn't exist , without him .
A bible says that mankind was created with the likeness of GOD .
So , people are closer to GOD , than they think .
[in looks anyway].
As we all know , nature is dynamic , and though it can seem
heartless or cruel , that"s just "the way it is".
A lot of people reject GOD , on a daily basis , but then expect
HIS help when in trouble . Open your mind to the possibility that
not only does GOD exist , but that HE might be with us now , living
as an humble , monk .


3. Yes , there is a multitude of earth-like planets .
There are humans on those planets to . That's another thread.
It's this planet GOD wants to add to the list of believers.
GOD is a bit sensitive about rejection , so can you just whisper...

reply to post by radarloveguy

1. have a look around and what do you see?
the universe ? well , that's no accident .
it is plainly miraculous
something SO grand , IS special to GOD>[the ONE who made it]

Just because you say that doesn't make it true and more to the point just because there are gaps in our understanding of the universe, doesn't mean you can crowbar whatever god into there that most appeals to you.

To presume this god is your god as if it's obvious, but if I were talking to a Muslim or Hindu or something, they would tell me it's their god as if it were obvious. That's why your argument holds no sway.

Also fairly obvious is the fact that the "Supreme Creator"
does care for life . life wouldn't exist , without him .

Why not? Chemistry is emergence in physics and biology is emergence in chemistry. It's perfectly reasonable that life could merely be a byproduct of his game of cosmic billiards.

A bible says that mankind was created with the likeness of GOD .

I don't care what the bible says, the bible is not god, written by men and so cannot be absolute representative of God. There are a dozen holy books in the world and you presume that yours is the right one when not only could it not be, but all of them could be false. You make many assumptions.

Open your mind to the possibility that
not only does GOD exist , but that HE might be with us now , living
as an humble , monk .

Being an ex-Christian, my first natural response to that is "open your mind to the possibility that you are completely wrong, just as I am."

Surely that's humility.

Yes , there is a multitude of earth-like planets .
There are humans on those planets to .

To assume that the life on other planets evolved, the chances of it being human are virtually impossible. You view of your supposed divinity is narcissistic.



Besides, none of this deals with my points made in the post you first responded to. I'm not going to continue this discussion if you aren't going to stick to the points at hand.

[edit on 30-9-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by radarloveguy

 

Why would I believe that? Reality indicates that life made us slowly. Why should I assume...
assume that humans haven't been before ten thousand years ago,
and wiped themselves out/brown dwarf event how many times ? 5 they reckon. if you count the next time.
1) That there is a god.
i thought i covered that
2) That it cares about life.
i definately covered this
3) That we are it's *special* creation? What happened to humility?
hey, we might be feeble,but where there is HOPE...
From what we know about life, it is very likely that the universe is awash with it. The Earth-like planets in this galaxy alone would be innumerable. Hell there may even be life elsewhere in this very solar system (in Europa, say).
well i had a go at that, to
there is of course myriad life forms
GOD has been busy ,[if you don't mind]

The god idea just doesn't do reality justice, regardless of the religion.
GOD acknowledges all faiths[with reservations]

"I still loveyousall" !! .> "GOD"

How would you know?
JESUS was the last prophet and proved conclusively to us ...the TRUTH
all ancient manuscripts must be read between the lines
they have been interpreted so often ,that there are now , condradictions etc.
..
[edit on 29-9-2009 by Welfhard]

[edit on 30-9-2009 by radarloveguy]

reply to post by radarloveguy

No, not that post. The first post you responded to which you made no responses to is this one..
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Why should I assume...
assume that humans haven't been before ten thousand years ago,
and wiped themselves out/brown dwarf event how many times ? 5 they reckon. if you count the next time.

It's difficult to see how cro magnon man could wipe himself out. Remains of humans have been found fairly steadily from 100,000 y/a up to now.

You don't have to assume because we have evidence - it's not a matter of faith.

1) That there is a god.
i thought i covered that

No you needlessly make presumptions and presume your conclusion.

2) That it cares about life.
i definately covered this

And again you make needless assumptions.

3) That we are it's *special* creation? What happened to humility?
hey, we might be feeble,but where there is HOPE...

Hope is irrelevant in ecumenical matters. Hope is no reason to presume we're not just an unwilled product of nature.

JESUS was the last prophet and proved conclusively to us ...the TRUTH
all ancient manuscripts must be read between the lines
they have been interpreted so often ,that there are now , condradictions etc.

Your faith in such things is no evidence that it is the truth. Besides, outside of the bible there is no evidence that beyond hearsay that Christos Yeshua existed at all, not to mention the fact that most of his character, attributes and message are plagiarised from older religious figures.


You make many needless assumptions. You remind me of the Mormon who knocks on my door on saturday and when I ask him why he believes in god, he says because the bible says so, and when I ask why he believes the bible, he says because God says so [in the bible].

Give me tangible evidence for goodness sake.

[edit on 30-9-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by radarloveguy

Welfhard , you man of steel ?
Bend a little , and open your eyes and ears.
In all of my posts, I have only ,assumed that ,
there is a reason for everything, and that reason is GOD .
Scientists assume that any theory is valid, [and they will push that
as the truth , ] more often than not , in the pursuit of never ending funding. If they do discover the truth , it is pushed to the back of the shelf.,so their research can continue.
GOD deserves more respect from science ,
but will never get it , because GOD just doesn't fit into their plans .!
scientists cannot create ONE living cell.
let alone admit that someone has....
way before your history books told you so.

The human experience , is not a meaningless jumble of 'facts",
it has more to do with the getting of spiritual wisdom.
and you won't find much enlightenment on the periodic table.

maybe science could do something useful , like clean up the mess
they've made of the environment

reply to post by randyvs


I don't have a problem with God. How can I have a problem with God if don't believe he/she/it exists? Well not in the form traditional religion would have us believe. It could be that there is some force which is beyond the scope of our imaginings. I really don't think there is some entity looking over your shoulder recording all your bad and good deeds etc.
I do believe in karma though.
Why? I think it's more up to the believers to show why they think God exists - not the other way round!
The people who wrote the bible and other books, lived in a time when electricity, say, would have been thought to be mystical. Anything they couldn't explain was attributed to magical/mystical causes.
Plus it is comforting for humanity to believe in some great creator, life beyond death etc.
Religion has been a controller throughout the ages.
Plus great evil has been done in the name of religion.
Oh and blind faith is not a virtue. Nice try by the God squad though.

[edit on 1-10-2009 by unicorn1]

reply to post by radarloveguy


I like the way that you're making senseless generalisations and actually ignoring the content of my rebuttal. Very religious minded.

Welfhard , you man of steel ?
Bend a little , and open your eyes and ears.
In all of my posts, I have only ,assumed that ,
there is a reason for everything, and that reason is GOD .

A) I think deconverting from Christian Fundie to Atheist-agnostic shows I'm fairly plastic when need be.
B) That's the needless assumption I'm talking about.

Scientists assume that any theory is valid, [and they will push that
as the truth , ] more often than not , in the pursuit of never ending funding.

Your anti-intellectual distrust of science disturbs me. Understanding of nature brings about and improves current technologies. Scientists pursue that understanding and they don't push their theories as truth but theory. Truth as an axiom is not something that science or anything else is capable of. Truth is the asymptote of human understanding. Truth implies there is nothing more to learn so if you were right, it would be a very bad idea in terms of funding to call a theory or fact truth. That's just stupid.

But in church, truth is proclaimed all the time, and it varies wildly from church to church so there is no way to establish which is the most accurate, they just tell you to take it on faith. Clearly we can see here that faith insures no accuracy of truth.

Pursuit of funding you say? Don't make me rant on the tithe and all equivalent "donations".

GOD deserves more respect from science

No it doesn't. God is a belief, based on simply faith. There is no empirical evidence of god (and if there were, there would be no faith). Using Occam's Razor, science selects the theories and hypotheses that have the least amount of assumptions as the best. God is a needless assumption.

scientists cannot create ONE living cell.

So? People said that scientists couldn't make a flying machine at one stage as well. Abiogenesis had in the order of a billion years to make a proto-life simple cell, and you conclude that because we haven't in the 50 years we've been trying that we can't. :/

The human experience , is not a meaningless jumble of 'facts",
it has more to do with the getting of spiritual wisdom.
and you won't find much enlightenment on the periodic table.

... or so dictates your faith.

maybe science could do something useful , like clean up the mess
they've made of the environment

It wasn't science that made a mess of the environment. It's not scientists that are on those Japanese whaling ships. It's not scientists that spill oil in the ocean.

And I think giving rise to all the technology and medicine we possess is pretty useful. Without the rationality and secularisation of science, we'd still probably be burning witches at the stake.

reply to post by randyvs


Great idea ranyvs. I don't have a problem with God personally. I do have a relationship with him. One I strive to deepen and understand. I figured I would put this out there as I have read some strange things regarding this topic. People taking the Bible and twisting verses to mean something. Or dissecting it so finely as to apply a different meaning altogether. It's harrowing to me. Good thread here though, S+F my friend.

reply to post by jackflap

Good thread here though, S+F my friend

Hey Jack! thank you for the kind words.


Welfhard, Welfhard, Welfhard!
What are you doing?
please take a moment to go back and read the op.Try to pay attention to the word list.

People don't have a beef with "the creator" - people don't have beefs with things they don't believe - instead they have a beef with religion and religious thought.

Well tell that to people like St vaast and Blackops.I'd say they both had or have a problem with God.

How would people know that religion is so stupid if we didn't remind them?

Kind of a drawn out reminder don'T you think. It's lasted the full six
pages of this thread.
Dude you really need to settle down.You re going to give yourself a heart
attack.

now here's something we hope you'll really like.
this should come you down a little bit. If you just take the two minutes to read it.
above top secret




[edit on 1-10-2009 by randyvs]

reply to post by spinkyboo


If you're planning on rejecting His Son, and being condemned for eternity - which is far longer than time here on earth - in fact, time never ends in eternity.

If you are ok with spending your eternal life with satan and the rest of the ones who were too full of pride and vanity to humble themselves before a just and loving God.

If it gnashing of teeth and eternal thirst is your thing, and you enjoy eternal torment, with no way of possible escape

People need to remember, or know, that it doesn't matter how "good" you are while on earth, no matter how many old ladies you help across the street, no matter how much money you donate to the poor - what matters is if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
Any/all other "gods", planets, new age hocus pocus, or shiny dazzling crystals are not going to be able to save your soul.

Lest we forget, even satan was previously a "good" angel before he was cast out of Heaven for eternity.

And it is satan that is indeed behind all of these false doctrines and other 'nwo' agendas. If you fall for his lies, then you are trading your eternal salvation for eternal death. Satan knows without a doubt that most humans will believe anything if the mass population appears to be believing it - the non believers are making this wayyy too easy for him.



[edit on 1-10-2009 by nomorecruelty]

reply to post by nomorecruelty

Lest we forget, even satan was previously a "good" angel before he was cast out of Heaven for eternity.

For wanting to be basically treated as an equal. If god wasn't such an egocentric megalomaniac non of this mess would have started to begin with!

No, instead he demands we love him and worship him and if we don't he's demonstrated that he has no problem wiping everyone out except a few to start all over and relate the horrors god did in hopes that successive generations would listen the next time around.

Personally, if I were to actually believe in god/satan, I would side with satan. I don't worship tyrants.