First I have to admit that I am on the fence with my own religious beliefs. I received this as an email and typically just delete it as it was so long (I blame it on my ADD). Any how, I enjoy the ideas and thoughts that Ben Stein's brings up and have followed him for awhile (10 years or so).

The crux of this thread is my question to the ATS'ers on here who continue to amaze me with their thought provoking ideas and insight. I come away from each thread with several new points of view and am now addicted to exchanging ideas with other ATS'ers, whether or not I agree with them.

Here is the email I received:

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish. And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are, Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, 'Merry Christmas' to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a creche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from, that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship celebrities and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him? I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too. But there are a lot of us who are wondering where these celebrities came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her 'How could God let something like this happen?' (regarding Hurricane Katrina).. Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said, 'I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?'

In light of recent events.... Terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found a few years ago) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK. Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill; thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave, because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said okay.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says. Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire, but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing. Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

<<<<<>>>>>>

So there it is. What do you think? Are we being too politically correct by removing Christ and Christanity from our everyday life and the result is the collapse of our society? Do we pay more attention to what our favorite actor(s) or actress(es) are doing instead of following HIS teachings? I'm curious what others think about this. Please, please don't flame each other! Just offer up your opinion, insight or ideas.

Thanks everyone.

It's not necessarily true that there would be a void if we removed Christianity.

For some of us who spend time in the US but also in other countries, the US represents this weird, bi-polar sort fo society. On one had, there is this all pervasive fundamentalism, the likes of which is not really seen anywhere else outside of the Islamic theocracies.

This fundamentalism creates national screaming matches over issues like evolution, gay rights, nudity and others, issues which people in other Western democracies totally bemused over this extreme mixing of irrational religious fervour into what would be otherwise minor issues.

Then on the other hand, after being in a almost any major US city for a while you start to become aware of this undercurrent of violence and self indulgence, actually over-indulgence in food, drugs and materialism. For example, one uniquely American sight I never get used to is seeing people lining up to fill up their 64oz cups with soda pop at breakfast in the corporate cafeteria.

So as worst, removing Christianity probably wouldn't matter and it might in fact be a good thing. Then maybe the US can do something about the soda pop for breakfast too.

you'll see in some years when there are "no" christians anymore on earth. just wait.

I'm the wrong person to answer this. A lot of signs & portents lead me to think I'll be going with my fellow christians soon when the Lord calls us home.
There are a lot of non-christians out there who are basically good & decent people. There are a lot of people on the cusp that could fall to the good side. These people have heard others voice (all be it in christian rhetoric) their concerns and ideals and they have spoken out though not as loud in some instances. I believe that with christians gone they will stand up more forcefully. They will fill the breach and not be swayed by the easy path. Of course many will become christians and become warriors and some will be martyers for the cause.

The thing is, we *haven't* been telling God to get out of schools, etc. We've been saying that schools and other public venues are not the proper place for religious worship, since our government is not a religious government. That's not at all the same thing as telling God to get lost.

We each have the right to invite God into our lives as we choose, to bless us and our families, children, homes, schools, communities, nation, and world. We have the right to do that at home. We have the right to do that silently in schools if we so choose. We can do this any time we want, anywhere we want - privately.

We can also do this publicly, when we gather together in our churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, etc. for our public worship. If we have the money, we can pay to send our children to religious schools. We can put up religious symbols on our own property, Christmas trees and nativity scenes, menorahs, such symbols as represent the holy days we observe.

What we don't have the right to do is to use public property and public funds to represent any particular religion. We don't have the right to use public property for nativity scenes, crosses, Jewish stars, Muslim star and crescents, etc. Those are religious symbols and have no place in publicly owned places or governmental functions.

As for "Christianity in society" - it's not. This society we live in is hedonistic and materialistic, not at all Christian except in the shallowest of senses. Most of the people in the US will claim to be Christians of asked about their religion - but how many of these people actually attend church, outside of some major holidays? How many of them read the Bible, or try to practice Christian virtues? Very few.

Take away Christianity, and you leave no void. There's hardly any Christianity going on in society, despite what some vocal Fundamentalists claim.

Ask yourself this question. Take away Christianity, and consider the void it might make. Of course, you probably would need to figure out what in this culture is Christian, but go ahead.

Now, take away violence and sex from this society, and consider the void. Consider all the commercials that would vanish, if sexually suggestive poses or images were removed. Consider how many TV shows and movies would fail if you removed the blood and sex. Now tell me where's the void.

No one would miss Christianity if it suddenly disappeared from our society. Take away sex and violence, and you'd have utter chaos and collapse.

Perhaps it is the wisdom that comes with age (not always) giving Ben Stein a clear review of the past 60 years of decline in Christianity and our nation. I agree with him. We do reap what we sow.]

Many think of the bad things that people have allowed to be done in the name of Christianity. These things are not allowed by Christ, ironically. My ancestor was in the Crusades. He probably felt compelled to honor God by killing the Muslims. He was probably duped by the Church at the time, and of course we like heroes. Heroes get land and social standing in those times. Today, with more education and information, we know better. Even the Church has had to conform somewhat to society, rather than insisting on the opposite.

There are always the weak individuals who succumb to greed, or sex, or whatever, who are in trusted offices. We look to them for advice and guidance, and we get let down when we find they are molesters, or perverts. I think you just get a certain number of people who can't control their choices as well as we would hope they could, such as teachers who sleep with their students. Unfortunate, but we are all just human.

When we consider the day and night reminders that we have evolved from apes, and we think and act a lot like the wild animals, and we are probably just something brought to Earth on a comet or such, we begin to lose our faith in a higher intelligence and power that can provide life and health for us. Who is surprised when that mental concept of humanism deteriorated our opinion of ourselves, and allows us to embrace the criminal and perverted?

Consider the alternative, especially now in a world where we can communicate so much better. Consider that the Prince of Peace, Jesus Christ, could just possibly give mankind a reason to believe in himself, feel good about being a child of God, and reach for a higher plane of existence. Why would anyone militate against such a value system? Would it be that they believe there is no God and no reason to hope? Do they still think that the world is a better place when it has no higher power or purpose? Does it make sense to tear down the higher values in hopes of replacing them with the ideas and concepts of philosophers?

Frankly, I believe the man that rose from the dead and is looking out for me daily. He did more for me than all the scientists, philosophers, so-called experts, etc. all rolled into one big Cuban cigar.

I feel I am an alien here, I believe in the Lord God above, and I hope

he will soon call us true christians HOME!!

The void left here will be a demonic one!

Get Right With God While You Still Can!!

This is my opinion.

Christianity has been largely removed from society and what has filled it's void is largely the crap we blame on the elite, ptb and terrorists.

We do not need the training wheels and indoctrination of religion to care for each other and live peacefully. Believe me it is NOT necessary. The void would be filled with truth, logic, rational thought, love, tolerance, experience and understanding. No more hate, no more intolerance, no more killing for religious beliefs, no more spite, no more brainwash.

I long for that day...

[edit on 20-8-2009 by N3krostatic]

I don't know about the rest of the world but I know the U.S. is a Christian country, so much so that they won't vote for you unless you're a Christian. The government is Christian and we as a country are proud that our country is always at war, and at war with Muslim countries for many years no less. Everything about the US is Christian.

So that being said... Maybe the U.S. would be like this without Christians...

Imagine there's no Christians
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Sundancer]

It's my deepest wish, that if Christianity should fall and a void was created...
I would hope that a deep Gnostic understanding of all the root knowledge of all world religions would rise on a global level, allowing people to truly internalize the metaphoric teachings, and literal physiological and sexual based creative spirituality within all of us... in order to cultivate the spirit within all of us.

all the information to view it as such is already there.. you just have to look.
we're approaching the end of this childrens-book interpretation of the Bible.. and entering a massive awakening of the true knowledge within.

the true doctrine.
the undeniable physical manifestation.

of course i'd hope we could make a gradual changeover from one to the other..
but we all know humans.. they don't like change, and stick to what they've been taught as children.

-

I don't think people are teaching and practicing Christianity the way it was intended. So in that respect I don't think it would make a bit of difference.

That's not to say that it wasn't God's plan that it happen this way though. If God exists and he's everything they say he is, it must all be part of his plan. Either way (planned or not) I don't think it would make any difference.

If that sounds like a contradiction to you, think of it as telling people to do one thing but fully expecting them to do something else.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by theyreadmymind]

Originally posted by N3krostatic
We do not need the training wheels and indoctrination of religion to care for each other and live peacefully. Believe me it is NOT necessary. The void would be filled with truth, logic, rational thought, love, tolerance, experience and understanding. No more hate, no more intolerance, no more killing for religious beliefs, no more spite, no more brainwash.

I long for that day...

[edit on 20-8-2009 by N3krostatic]

Whether one believes it to be necessary is not the point. The point is that there are those who impose upon and harrass and are intolerant of others beliefs. Calling them untruthful, illogical, unrational, unloving and hateful and intolerant. And that's part of the problem isn't it?

You may call it brain washing, but I call it your own form of intolerance and hatefulness. Which I suppose exposing is exactly the point of this thread.

I live in a free society, where I'm quite happy to believe and practice faith as I see fit. I am also quite happy to leave you alone to not believe as you see fit. If you believe it would be appropriate to remove others freedoms I'll suggest you take a good hard look at where you live and why you think it appropriate to impose your own beliefs on those of others. This is not China, its not Nazi Germany or Russian under Stalin. Do you understand the relevance of those examples?

Long story short, I'm answering the question as: it would leave oppression, anarchy, and slavery. Because obviously, it would not be a free society.

Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink. I needn't argue with that; I'm right and I will be proved right. We're more popular than Jesus now; I don't know which will go first - rock and roll or Christianity.
- John Lennon

My money is on religion

What will fill the void?

Logic.
Reason.
Science.

I may not be a Christian exactly but i am no Athiest. I believe there is an intelligence greater than us and that we are energy or have spirits. Who knows there are too many unexplainable thing in the world to just believe there is nothing and that we exist just because we evolved from micro organisms.

Atheists are just another extreme like Christians or Muslims. Some would say that Atheists don't cause wars but imo and actually it is proven by Orgs like the Bohemian Grove that the people in power are not Christian either but are actually Satanists.

All the Churches are staffed with CIA operatives or sell outs that preach Romans 13 and are run like businesses and work for gov't so much of what the masses know of religion has been perverted because the progenitors of the faith are not christian but pretend to be.

That being said if there was no Christianity we would be in the same situation it would just be a different salesman. Maybe an Athiest, they will still push global warming and want oil and money just like any other power broker. Nothing will change at all.

Originally posted by Roadblockx
So there it is. What do you think? Are we being too politically correct by removing Christ and Christanity from our everyday life and the result is the collapse of our society?

Religion has a place for some people. But, as has been said, that place is not a government building or organization. Not in the US and not according to our founding documents.

That doesn't mean that parents can't teach their kids all about religion, go to church every day if they desire and practice it every day of their lives.

If religion should vanish, society won't collapse. It will thrive without the oppressive guilt and dogma associated with most religions.

Do we pay more attention to what our favorite actor(s) or actress(es) are doing instead of following HIS teachings?

Priorities are taught by parents. If parents leave their child to watch TV as a babysitter instead of reading to them and instilling in them the values they want them to have, then the kids are going to default to the flashy box 9 out of 10 times. That can't be blamed on this elusive mass called "society". It's not "society's" job to teach our children.

Being "good" can be taught without religion. In fact, once religion is stripped away, and we're no longer behaving "because the Bible says so" or "because it's God's will", we find the REAL reasons for choosing to behave in positive, loving, accepting, honorable ways. And we OWN it ourselves instead of attributing every action we take to the big man in the sky.

I don't know or care much if religion is going to last or not. It's not a part of my life whatsoever, so the existence or absence of it has little effect on me. But there is no void where it used to be. I now depend on myself, hold myself accountable and responsible for what happens in my life, instead of looking to a higher power for comfort, guidance or to blame when "things go wrong". I much prefer life without religion. And my values and morals are higher and more stringent now than when I had religion in my life.

What fills the void is me. All of me. It's very freeing.

I don't know about you people but i feel as though Christanity is more civilised than the Muslim faith. Look at Muslim Laws and how they treat Woman. Why not talk about moving the Muslim faith? It seems to me its allways Christanity thats being bashed and made fun of.

It seems to me as well its the same when it comes to the media and the comics on TV, its allways Christianity there picking at.

I know christianty dose have issues with Gays and Woman as well. They do have there problems with there faith as well. Its nothing like the Muslim faith though. Like i said it seems to me ''lets pick on christianty..no one protests or kills them selfs''.

Dose anyone else see this?

Am not a christian am like alot of people on here searching for the truth!

Tsom87

The problem is not that we removed God out of our sight,
the problem is we do not want to understand God.
We do not want to see Him. He is one, stated in your book.

God has a lot of other names,
HE is the truth, or isn't he ? he is ? well, his name is truth

so why do we not allow people who search truth,
to be included in our classification of 'believers'

why do we not allow people who live for care and love
to be included in our classification of 'believers in god who is one,
as stated in our own books', they act towards one as believers

why do we not allow people to woship our god
from their religion that worships the same god
(quran states torah is the law, and gospel is the truth, god is one)

Why do we not allow jesus to be one ?
why do we steal his herritage of salvation,
and do we see him seperate from our one god,
life, to include us all, when he teached us that
everything is one, together in our God.

Why do we not understand religion and science
as one, do we accuse what is One,
do we accuse god ?

why do we accuse all what is from god,
becauseHe has more names then the word god

why do we accuse god
because He has more names then the word 'jesus'

why do we accuse god
when He is growing up,

do we ask our children, us (god is one) to understand everything
or to grow ?

so when do we stop judging, accusing people
because they do not know everything
and when do we see when they try, care
and put care together with their wish to be valued
they are believers

when we do understand religion, science and truth
as one,
then we will understand our god, life

we will be grown ups soon
become angels
and be judged by the others
but we will give them
something to think about
and after their anger
they will regret = see,
and will come home too.

thats why.
jonathan.



[edit on 21-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Star and flag this! Wonder how soon before attitudes or posts become "unChristian" like....