Demonic Video Games

reply to post by Skyfloating


I sympathize, skyfloating.

I never saw the point in these video games. And they just nurture wrongful thoughts.

I can't see what joy pissing on a burning body, then kicking the head around. Would bring someone....

I haven't played a video game in, god, almost 3 years now... and at that I only played Tony Hawk games, well and James Bond the old school one, my favorite.

But there are worse video games out there than this, just think of the ones that weren't allowed.

reply to post by LoneGunMan

You are what you feed yourself

No, you are who you are. The determining factors behind morality, personality, and behaviors are determined by far more factors than you're apparently aware of. Genetics, culture, parenting, environment... and more. The plasticity of the brain as it learns through experience makes it extremely difficult to gauge what will and won't have an impact on future behavior.

However, there have been no empirical studies which show either a definitive positive or negative role of video games in adult behavior after being exposed to them as kids and adolescents. This is because, even in young children, there is a clear division in healthy minds to distinguish fantasy from reality. The younger the mind, perhaps the more potentially damaging a mature rated game can be - because small changes early on can create exponential changes at a later time. Once a child is into their early teen years, though, most of the major foundations for personality are fairly well established.

I'm sorry for posting that video slightly out of context. I would have liked to post it as it actually IS in the game, but I couldn't find a Ytube video of it unadulterated. I did leave out certain details on purpose, to gauge reactions. Too see how quick to judge some people are without all the pertinent information.

Fallout 3 is a "sandbox" RPG, meaning you can go and do pretty much whatever you want - and there are multiple ways to interact and finish quests. This wide array of choice in how you play is part of what makes development so complex and leaves room for a lot of bugs - a main complaint in many of Bethesda's games.

My first playthrough I was a good character, and usually I always am on first playthroughs. That's just who I am. I only opted for the evil playthrough for the achievement points, and to see alternate scenarios. Aside from a few humorous bits, it did tear me up quite a bit having to make moral choices in the game I didn't want to and doing harmful stuff to NPCs I had come to empathize with (Moira Brown's severe radiation poisioning/ghoulification after nuking the town of Megaton for example).

Very few and far between are the moral choices you have to make in the game a lose-lose situation (The PITT addon has one, a choices between kidnapping a child who carries a "cure" for a deadly disease so the slaves can be freed, or betraying the slaves until the slavemaster and his wife can produce the cure necessary to allow the slaves to breed and, ultimately, free them). Personally, I didn't like the PITT's moral choices, but life isn't always bubblegum and lollipops - and the game tries to reflect that. It's the tragedy of the situation that's SUPPOSED to upset or move you.

It's not a question of what the game is trying to encourage you to do, to desensitize you. It's a matter of freedom of choice - to either make decisions your yourself would make in that situation, or step outside of yourself and experience another realm. Again, on my first playthrough, I never even had the option for the kidnapping quest - since I made enemies rather quickly with the slavers by helping the Temple of the Union take back the Lincoln Memorial as a waystation for the underground railroad. And even on my evil character, as said, I had to kill the slaver because I couldn't go through with it... even if it was just a game.


Personally, I'm far less worried about what people feed their head in terms of acknowledged fantasy violence and story lines - and what they feed their head in terms of bad information, myths, and pseudoscience. There the line isn't quite so blurred between fantasy and reality - and real actions taken in the real world based on fictitious data they never bothered to verify as truth, especially against their own biases, can have dire consequences for others they interact with.




To this day, one of my favorite games is Phantasy Star II - because of the tragic and devastating ending. Your characters are labeled traitors and terrorists, a well loved character dies at the hands of her "other self/Sister", the most populous planet in the system is destroyed to prevent a possible uprising as well as to weaken the dimensional seal holding "The Profound Darkness" back... and at the very end, after defeating the AI "Mother Brain" controlling every aspect of life from the weather to the economy, you find out it's humanity... us... who are the true villains of the game. We destroyed Earth, and sought out Algol to conquer through control and bioweaponry, so that our reduced numbers could invade could genocide the native population. The game ends with 90% of the system's population slaughtered by the debris of the destroyed planet, the technology they depended upon for survival useless, and even your own characters are implied to have died making their last stand - and go down in history as reviled terrorists, instead of liberating heroes.

That's powerful for an RPG from 1989... and looking back, it drew inspiration from some rather heavy sources such as H.P. Lovecraft and H.G. Wells.

That game didn't desensitize me to genocide and violence... though it did help inspire my love for tragedies. A love which lead me to stories such as Oedipus Rex. Have you ever read that one? The story of the prince who was ferreted away as a child to keep his father from killing him and fulfilling the oracles prophecy. A prophecy stating that he would slaughter his father and sleep with his mother. As an adult, unknowing of his heritage, he gets into an argument with his father after a chance meeting and kills him in passion. Thus he became the new king and, accordingly, would go on to sleep with the queen - his mother.

This story has been around for millenia, and is considered one of the great works of human literature and theater. There's quite a few of them, and if you look back at the times they were written and read in - humanity was in a much sorrier state. Gladiatorial competitions, the lowering of cats and other animals into fires, public spectacle surgeries preformed without anesthesia with the viewers cheering, jeering, and taking bets on life or death... even up to the early 20th century some areas in the United States still allowed for public gatherings at hangings. Bring the kids, bring some lunch and make a day of it... watching people die. The first battles of the Civil War attracted spectators to view the carnage with glee.

You think we're being desensitized? You think humanity hasn't always loved the sight of blood for entertainment purposes? You're kidding yourself. We have, as a society, become perhaps more deluged in scenes of violence and sex... but in a fantasy setting, or brutality with rules and guidelines to prevent deadly harm (UFC, for exp).... but we have become far LESS tolerant of violence and atrocity in reality. There is less risk of being killed by the hands of another human being now than at any time in our species history, no matter the tribe or culture. Much less so for mere entertainment purposes.


Ask yourself... why is media like Fallout 3 is applauded by critics and available for purchase... yet snuff films featuring real death are banned and generally reviled, selling only to a much smaller niche audience. How is it that someone can basically commit widespread vehicular genocide on Grand Theft Auto... yet still be moved to tears at the sights in the holocaust museum, or by the "nuclear shadows" in Hiroshima.

Originally posted by Geladinhu
I think its better to act like that in a virtual world than in our physical "real" world.

For instance, I have a lot of repressed anger.
So much anger that I feel like killing.
Of course I would never do such thing.
But maybe I could get rid of this anger by simulating a murder?
Although I hate violence I actually enjoy violent video-games.

It relieves stress.
But thats just me.

I feel that I get so constrained by social and cultural rules that it just feels good to break all those rules without actually damaging anyone. At least I can pretend that I'm free.

[edit on 20-8-2009 by Geladinhu]

yeah, but peeing on people?!

reply to post by ChaosComplex


Based on your perspective, I guess you could say that if the government starts hurling grenades at everyone, then it's upto the parents to make sure that their kids come to no harm. Everyone is responsible for the state of our society, especially our governments, but in todays world, the only things that people care about is money, materialism and fame and sadly they'll go to any lenghts to get it.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by kindred]

Originally posted by Clickfoot
Why are you (apparently) so worried about 'the children' when you know yourself that this is juvenile humor?

Because it makes for a good discussion

Also, Im not as worried as you say.

you are so out of touch with reality I don't know what to tell you.

Out of touch with which reality? Yours? I hope so.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

reply to post by LoneGunMan

I am a warrior of what is right.

Such confidence in your righteousness makes me suspicious of your subconscious motives. How many of the world's worst atrocities were committed with righteous and noble goals? How many evil means were ignored or purified in righteousness in order to bring about noble and enlightening ends?

The righteous man is righteous in all his deeds.

I hope you have thought about such and realize such a statement is more a warning than a praise. Personally, I think it far better to merely be one to step back from the struggle of "Right and Wrong" and assess the situation objectively, and from positions I may not normally consider were I embroiled in the issue. Seek out contrary opinions, facts, and insight, and weight them against experience and knowledge.

We are indoctrinated by parents then the school system that what you see, smell hear and taste is real.

Reality is a consensus of multiple and repeatable subjective experiences. This is why science demands that hypothesis be substantiated with physical or mathematical evidence, that observations be demonstrable, and testing repeatable. The very technology you're using right now to read this post is a testament to the objective reality this process has discovered. Your computer, monitor, ISP, etc, is a field test - one of millions going on simultaneously - that relies upon a proper understanding of the objective reality in which our subjective consciousness is observing. Further, you can take what you learn in school and apply it to the real world and (depending on the quality of the education) get confirming results.

It is not indoctrination, though too many people somehow get the idea that a school education is supposed to "flawless and 100% accurate" - when logistically, that's just not going to happen. Education relies upon open minds, not dogma, but far too often the filter of "reason" is not applied and it's easier for some to just accept without question or reject regardless of evidence due to preexisting beliefs.

If your school teachers do NOT encourage questions and discussions, then they are not good teachers IMO. Yet, by the same token, they have a finite time in which to accomplish their curriculum - and redundant or ludicrous questions raised for the sake of mere contention generally aren't addressed outside of special tutoring.

It is my conclusion, evaluating both spirituality and education, that education is the true road to enlightenment. It the light in the darkness, and our best avenue for the hope of understanding ourselves and our world.

Being on the road of love and empathy is something TPTB dont want you to be on.

Name the "PTB" specifically. Call out individuals and organizations, then back up those accusations with hard data. I am of the strong impression that "TPTB" are not one single cabal, but thousands upon thousands of smaller competing groups, each vying for your attention, your money, your time, your charity, your ear. They have no singular goal or control, merely acting to the fullest extent of their capacity within the system they operate in, and any harm to the public is within levels of tolerance - what they can cover up or what they can afford to litigate. Societal collapse and control is not in their best interest, as it precludes the possibility of gaining further wealth and power.

Consider the case of Japan who, after centuries of isolationist policies and stagnation in their own high-middle ages, had their harbors blown open forcefully by Matthew Perry - forcing Japan to ultimately open their country to change voluntarily, as they could not ensure security in the face of western advanced technology. Japan became an industrial nation almost overnight, and today they are one of the most prosperous and cutting edge technology producing nations. Their average lifespan and health has improved, quality of life has improved - especially for the lowest social ranks, they have one of the most powerful Navys for defense, and their crime rate is ridiculously low compared to America's. Japan has it's problems, certainly, but look at the transformation that embracing new ideas and western science has brought them.

To be better that what we are. To learn that we are all one.

Modern science can tell you that, and more importantly, they can tell you how we are all related. How are related to each blade of grass and each bird in the air. It builds a common family tree for all men and women. It can show us how we differ, but in slight variations on similarities we all share. It can show us how we are constructed from chemicals forged in the hearts of supernova long past, that we are an extension of the universe, and by our understanding of it - we represent the universe waking up to know itself.

War is the product of small minded men that cannot see that nothing matters but love.

War is the product of the forces which shaped us, and it exists on every level of the biosphere whether it be adaptation, predation, or territoriality. Because we are related to our fellow creatures, we can gleam a bit of our base nature from them. Life is complex weave of cooperation, parasitism, and competition. Balance is only an illusion of scale. The fact that we have war is not surprising or disgusting, because it's part of who we are. It's a part of all of us, to various degrees. I believe that we cannot meaningfully work to curb the demons of our nature, until we acknowledge who and what we are... that we all have these capacities, and that we must all stay vigilant for their emergence.

reply to post by OTTOKARMA

A video game never killed anyones.

That's not -QUITE- true. There's a few instances of MMORPG players being so drawn into their game that they starved/dehydrated. There's also the rare case of an argument over a game between friends/siblings leading to murder. However, the latter example I'm not sure if you can really blame on games. We tend to kill each other over rather trivial matters at times. Religion, being a prime candidate... but I've even recall hearing a report of a drunken man killing his friend after a heated argument on what came first... the chicken or the egg.

Originally posted by Lasheic
Alot of has to do with context and empathy. Games like Postal 2 do a lot to reduce and empathy through comedy and absurdity of violence. Games like Fallout 3 draw you in to their world and try to increase level of empathy you feel towards their characters.

I wouldnt be so sure that featuring an 8-year-old-sex-slave increases ones level of empathy, even if the purpose is to save her.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

Hmm. I want to reply because I'm an advocate of video games and have played them for over 30 years.

As someone suggested - the best way to voice their disapproval is to withhold money and not purchase the game.

Also, the parents should ensure their children do not play these games.

That said, I don't have a problem these sorts of games, mainly because they aren't real. And that's the entire draw for me. Sometimes, it's fun to completely let go of all the political correctness, all the silly human rights soapboxers and enforced morals and just play a game where what you do is wrong in everyway.

It's fun, it's unwinding, it helps to de-stress, it allows you to vent frustrations, annoyances and aggression in a controlled and above all, *fictional* environment.

I will say this tho - as soon as these games hit a level of realism that I find "too real" - I won't play them. I enjoy them because of what they are not - and that is they are not real.

As for influencing people to become violent? I don't believe so. At least no more than Hollywood films or MSM does.

If one cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality, then they need professional, medical help - not a video game. And it's not my responsability, nor that of the game maker/publisher to ensure that.


EDIT: mistyped sentence

[edit on 21-8-2009 by noonebutme]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Clickfoot
Why are you (apparently) so worried about 'the children' when you know yourself that this is juvenile humor?

Because it makes for a good discussion

Also, Im not as worried as you say.

you are so out of touch with reality I don't know what to tell you.

Out of touch with which reality? Yours? I hope so.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

You enjoy the ass kissing because you are a moderator, however, you really lack the argument. I offend equally, mod or not.

If you feel it necessary to respond to other members, offer us a bit more insight?

reply to post by Skyfloating


I'm not saying the game is supposed to boost your empathy as a person in any way outside of the game. I'm merely saying that it's designed so that it plays on your already existing empathy to allow you to relate to and connect with the characters... so that when you have to make decisions which affect those characters, your actions carry more weight and consideration. It brings out a gamut of elicited emotions, such as sorrow, joy, shame, anger, freight. It's a more engrossing experience than mere shock-comedy like Postal 2. Postal 2's characters are more stereotyped and exaggerated. They are not given real personalities or interests or dialog aside from absurdities. The developers of Postal 2 purposefully dehumanized the characters into parodies, so that you could leave the moral baggage behind and just enjoy the visual shock.

It's a lesson in dehumanization. None of these characters are human, and nobody ever mistakes them for such... but the fact that that you feel SOMETHING when killing a character that was designed to more closely behave like real people, taken in contrast to killing a character which isn't designed to behave like actual people says a lot about the power of dehumanization.

It's hard for a man to kill another human, but it's easy for a man to kill a cockroach, an infidel, a heretic, a troll, a monster, etc. Those are not seen as human, but as lower beings who may pose a danger if they are not kept in check. The systematic classification of "us" and "them" as differences is so closely tied with our evaluation of "us" being generally better or more noble than "them", who are misguided or evil, that they're almost synonymous. Ask a random sampling of Conservatives what they think of liberals, or Christians what they think of Atheists, or Sony supports what they think of Xbox 360.... and you very rarely find objective appraisal at best, and rarely praise outside of "exceptions". When you push the envelope further, reducing humans into stereotypes and monsters, then it becomes easy - even necessary and righteous to kill, condemn, or control them. This is why I don't necessarily care for the ambiguous "elites" or "TPTB" and their dehumanisation. They are not so different than us... any of us. Their sins are our sins, unexpressed (or expressed and ignored) simply because we are not in their shoes, in that system, in that situation.

If you get a chance, look into the propaganda spread during the Rwandan genocide that helped turn normally peaceable neighbors into monsters. Also, if you haven't, check out the movie Beowulf & Grendel. It doesn't follow the epic very well, but uses that framework to tell it's own story... which is very good on it's own merits, IMO.



Back to games, I'm not saying they're very sophisticated at what they do... as literature, film, and theater are much more deeply developed and respected in culture. Most games simply aren't marketed for the "art" of it, as there is not really a perceived market for it. Though I think the "Art" in games can be expressed better in their interaction, gameplay, and control schemes. It may sound strange, but a really good game can elicit a state of mind similar to meditation... where you detach from your sense of body, and your fingers move on instinct. Your mind calms and smooths in a way that reminds me of the cliche kung fu "like polished glass". It can be a rush and a high, and each game is slightly different in flavor of experience. MOST games don't accomplish this... but the rare jem can. Ikaruga or E3 being the foremost in my mind. In this way, games can elicit specific emotions and states of mind in their own unique way... similar to how Culinary dishes, music, and sculpture can all be artistic fields unique from each other by appealing to the different sensory inputs.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Lasheic]

I listen to Black/Death Metal..the most intense music you can imagine with 1000 bpm, satanic lyrics, screams, and even the band members themselves have commited church burnings, murders and rape.
Ive watched the Goriest Horror/Slash/Snuff movies avaliable from mainstream to underground flicks..such films as Evil Dead, spit on your grave, cradle of fear.
I even have my walls completely covered in black advertisings which ive amassed from certain magazines such as Guitar Mags or Goth Mags, aswell as my Collection of Black Metal CDs, Playstation Games which include Manhunt, Resident Evil series, Soldier of Fortune, Project Zero/2, Silent Hill.
Yet funnily enough despite all of ive always been a VICTIM of crime and hate.

1,000 BPM eh? Care to share which bands you were listening to that play that fast?

Originally posted by Dr Love
Stuff like this is just bad for the soul, period.:shk:

Oh.....but it's just a game! Sick and demented as it may be, it's still just a game, and will keep me from being sick and demented for real like.

Peace

Hmmm, Plenty of people don't play these games and are not sick and demented in real life.

How does the logic work there?

1,000 BPM eh? Care to share which bands you were listening to that play that fast?

1349, Torgeist, Satanic Warmaster, Belketre, Behexen, Vlad Tepes, Goatwhore, Vesania, Immortal, Arkona..to name a few.

You enjoy the ass kissing because you are a moderator, however, you really lack the argument. I offend equally, mod or not.

Has nothing to do with Moderating but with taking part in lively discussion as a member.

Because of this thread I learned that about

5% would like to ban ultra-violent games
25% find them questionable (me)
25% applaud games like this
50% dont care either way

]If you feel it necessary to respond to other members, offer us a bit more insight?

Insight on what?

reply to post by Lasheic

 

I'm merely saying that it's designed so that it plays on your already existing empathy to allow you to relate to and connect with the characters... so that when you have to make decisions which affect those characters, your actions carry more weight and consideration

Point well made. Thats certainly a different quality-level than some other games.

In this way, games can elicit specific emotions and states of mind in their own unique way... similar to how Culinary dishes, music, and sculpture can all be artistic fields unique from each other by appealing to the different sensory inputs.

The effect of various works on my physiology and psychology is very apparent to me. Hence this thread.

If you get a chance, look into the propaganda spread during the Rwandan genocide that helped turn normally peaceable neighbors into monsters. Also, if you haven't, check out the movie Beowulf & Grendel. It doesn't follow the epic very well, but uses that framework to tell it's own story... which is very good on it's own merits, IMO.

Yes to everything said.



[edit on 21-8-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by antar
Came back to star and flag this Motha, I am SHOCKED that I was the first one! Wow. That makes me sick! Lets just watch the mentality of Pro Demonic games mentality... Erggg

The game is nearly 8 years old....

It's not as if this thread is changing anything. Well actually it is - it's made me want to reinstall it.

Originally posted by ROBL240
1,000 BPM eh? Care to share which bands you were listening to that play that fast?

1349, Torgeist, Satanic Warmaster, Belketre, Behexen, Vlad Tepes, Goatwhore, Vesania, Immortal, Arkona..to name a few.

Haha, nowhere near that speed at all - about 250bpm for short periods of time at the maximum. Do you even know what 1000bpm sounds like? Here, I just made this for you:

rapidshare.com...

Now keep in mind that's a single kick drum and nothing else, it sounds even more like a drone with the more sounds you add. Sorry about that off-topic post everyone, just denying some ignorance.



*EDIT FOR TYPO*

[edit on 21-8-2009 by Goathief]

Played it through..
Crappy 90's graphics ,stupid gameplay, loading between levels(And that in the time of"sandbox-games") glitches ,bugs, boring,repetetive...should I go on?

This piece of utter junk is not worth the lexan it is burned on.A waste of coding. The hype overtakes the game by a wide margin. (Anyone remember the righteous indignation that befell "carmageddon"? :lol

Everyone that uses games like this as an excuse for violent ,sick behavior in the real world ,would have used the same lame excuse when the first war-novels became affordable for the general public (say somewhere around 1890) and the same could be said from comics, or tv-shows..

All reports by s.c. "child psychologists"(that never played, or even saw the game)can be tossed away, being utter PC drivel. Kids know the difference between "real"and "game/comic/cartoon/tv show/movie" darn well....

I wouldnt really call it ignorance, just a lack of music theory..which is a bit disconcerning as I have my own Ambient Black Metal Demo out at the moment, but thats for another thread.
For the record ive been looking at the price of Postal selling online today and the value is about 15 pounds cheapest, considering the game is 10 years old and PC based I dont think this would add to the appeal factor of todays generation in buying it anymore. Likewise with games such as Manhunt where the pricetag is 39 pounds, anyone wanting such games (and underage) would have a hard time persuading their parents to buy such a product.